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About dwarves and their connection with nordic myth ...

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  • Anglin Turcam
    First I just want to tell you that I m French and this post is my first here ... I study dwarves and Tolkien since some 5 years now ... (I ve read Tolkien in
    Message 1 of 23 , Mar 28, 2006
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      First I just want to tell you that I'm French and this post is my
      first here ...

      I study dwarves and Tolkien since some 5 years now ... (I've read
      Tolkien in the late 80' for the first time)

      Now and with some usefull books for my personnal researchs (Edda,
      Tom Shippey, Humphrey Carpenter, Tolkien's HoMEs, Hrolf Kraki Saga,
      Beowulf, and some -less knowned- norse saga, and some usefull
      articles about the Thula of dwarfs found in the Voluspa - Gould,
      Motz, Jim Allan, Andy Orchard - ... ), I have gathered a lot of
      interesting stuff about dwarves and their norse ancestors's -perhaps-
      connection ?!

      I just want to discuss with you about some details which are still
      give to me some reflection ....
      _____________________________________________________________
      The names :

      I found that Tolkien used about 64 different dwarves in all his
      books (the ones that take places in Arda)

      some 17 of them are only repetition (Durin I , Durin II ...)

      In fact 9 of them are simply nor 'norse', because of their probable
      origin in 'elven' or 'dwarven' langage :
      Azaghâl, Bodruith, Fangluin, Gamil zirak, Ibun, Khim, Mim,
      Naugladur, Telchar.

      Rest : 38 different dwarves names, OK ??

      Anar, Balin, Bifur, Bofur, Bombur, Borin, Burin, Dain, Dis, Dori,
      Durin, Dwalin, Farin, Fili, Floi, Frar, Frerin, Fror, Fundin,
      Gandalf, Gimli, Gloin, Groin, Gror, Hannar, Kili, Lofar, Loni, Nain,
      Nali, Nar, Narvi, Nori, Oin, Ori, Thorin, Thrain, Thror.

      23 of them are found exactly in the same letters in Henry Adams
      Bellows Edda (Volospa) 1923.

      Narvi is spelled Narfi in HoME (a norse name)
      Gimli (is not a name of a dwarf or human but) is spelled G-i-m-l-i
      in Cleasby-Vigfusson Old norse Dictionnary, Gimle in other
      translations ...
      Dwalin>Dvalin is a current w>v change in ON > later german or english

      The only one which is not clearly a norse name here for me (in the
      present evolution of my works) is Balin

      Note ; that Gandalf is on the first version of the Hobbit a dwarf
      (in fact the 'head dwarf' of the company ...)

      Note 2 ; Oakenshield is a 'nickname' but also comes from norse
      Eikinskjaldi, Smaug is a irregular form of the verb smjúga ('to
      creep'), as some of the names which are founded in the hobbit also
      (Bard, Beorn ...)
      ______________________________________________________________

      this is my first post, so I let you read it and perhaps speak of it
      before post a second one ....

      Thanks by Advance,
      Stéphane Grignon
      http://chroniqueschantdefer.free.fr
    • John D Rateliff
      Very interesting post, Anglin. Welcome to the list. Re. the dwarf-names, I d also recommend you consult Ursula Dronke s edition of THE POETIC EDDA, volume II:
      Message 2 of 23 , Mar 29, 2006
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        Very interesting post, Anglin. Welcome to the list.
        Re. the dwarf-names, I'd also recommend you consult Ursula
        Dronke's edition of THE POETIC EDDA, volume II: Mythological Poems.
        She not only translates all the dwarf-names in the VOLUSPA (pages
        9-11) but lists all the variant spellings from other manuscripts
        (pages 90-92). Unfortunately, since like most Norse scholars she
        views the 'dvergatal' as an interpolation, she omits it from her
        discussion in favor of (very Tolkienesque) speculation of what might
        once have been there before displaced by the dwarf-list. The dwarf-
        names also appear in Snorri's PROSE EDDA (cf. pages 41-42 of Jean
        Young's translation), but Tolkien was explicit that the ELDER EDDA
        was his direct source (LETTERS OF JRRT page 31)--i.e., the VOLUSPA.
        As for 'the Problem of Balin', I've come to the conclusion that
        this represents a deliberate alteration by Tolkien of a name which
        does appear in the EDDA, but the argument is too complicated for
        quick explication in an e-mail; drop me a line off-list if you'd like
        to go into it.
        Also: "Gandalf" was the name for the character now known as
        Thorin from the first chapter right up through the escape from the
        Elvenking; he becomes "Thorin" upon their arrival at Lake-town, at
        which point the names Thror and Thrain are also introduced.
        By the way, another reason for using Dronke's edition (besides
        the exhaustive level of detail--she's been working on the project for
        decades and is still only about half-way through) is that I believe
        she was a student of Tolkien's, although I'm not certain of this. At
        any rate, she contributed a piece (on one of the Edda poems,
        appropriately enough) to Tolkien's 1962 festschrift, the contributors
        of which were either colleagues (Coghill, Lewis) or students
        (d'Ardenne, Burchfield, Griffiths) of JRRT.
        I look forward to you next post.

        --JDR


        On Mar 28, 2006, at 2:51 AM, Anglin Turcam wrote:

        > First I just want to tell you that I'm French and this post is my
        > first here ...
        >
        > I study dwarves and Tolkien since some 5 years now ... (I've read
        > Tolkien in the late 80' for the first time)
        >
        > Now and with some usefull books for my personnal researchs (Edda,
        > Tom Shippey, Humphrey Carpenter, Tolkien's HoMEs, Hrolf Kraki Saga,
        > Beowulf, and some -less knowned- norse saga, and some usefull
        > articles about the Thula of dwarfs found in the Voluspa - Gould,
        > Motz, Jim Allan, Andy Orchard - ... ), I have gathered a lot of
        > interesting stuff about dwarves and their norse ancestors's -perhaps-
        > connection ?!
        >
        > I just want to discuss with you about some details which are still
        > give to me some reflection ....
        > _____________________________________________________________
        > The names :
        >
        > I found that Tolkien used about 64 different dwarves in all his
        > books (the ones that take places in Arda)
        >
        > some 17 of them are only repetition (Durin I , Durin II ...)
        >
        > In fact 9 of them are simply nor 'norse', because of their probable
        > origin in 'elven' or 'dwarven' langage :
        > Azaghâl, Bodruith, Fangluin, Gamil zirak, Ibun, Khim, Mim,
        > Naugladur, Telchar.
        >
        > Rest : 38 different dwarves names, OK ??
        >
        > Anar, Balin, Bifur, Bofur, Bombur, Borin, Burin, Dain, Dis, Dori,
        > Durin, Dwalin, Farin, Fili, Floi, Frar, Frerin, Fror, Fundin,
        > Gandalf, Gimli, Gloin, Groin, Gror, Hannar, Kili, Lofar, Loni, Nain,
        > Nali, Nar, Narvi, Nori, Oin, Ori, Thorin, Thrain, Thror.
        >
        > 23 of them are found exactly in the same letters in Henry Adams
        > Bellows Edda (Volospa) 1923.
        >
        > Narvi is spelled Narfi in HoME (a norse name)
        > Gimli (is not a name of a dwarf or human but) is spelled G-i-m-l-i
        > in Cleasby-Vigfusson Old norse Dictionnary, Gimle in other
        > translations ...
        > Dwalin>Dvalin is a current w>v change in ON > later german or english
        >
        > The only one which is not clearly a norse name here for me (in the
        > present evolution of my works) is Balin
        >
        > Note ; that Gandalf is on the first version of the Hobbit a dwarf
        > (in fact the 'head dwarf' of the company ...)
        >
        > Note 2 ; Oakenshield is a 'nickname' but also comes from norse
        > Eikinskjaldi, Smaug is a irregular form of the verb smjúga ('to
        > creep'), as some of the names which are founded in the hobbit also
        > (Bard, Beorn ...)
        > ______________________________________________________________
        >
        > this is my first post, so I let you read it and perhaps speak of it
        > before post a second one ....
        >
        > Thanks by Advance,
        > Stéphane Grignon
        > http://chroniqueschantdefer.free.fr



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Anglin Turcam
        Thank s a lot Dear John I will certainly look after Ursula Dronke s edition of THE POETIC EDDA, volume II: Mythological Poems. The one that you ve speak above.
        Message 3 of 23 , Mar 30, 2006
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          Thank's a lot Dear John

          I will certainly look after Ursula Dronke's edition of THE POETIC
          EDDA, volume II: Mythological Poems. The one that you've speak
          above.

          I'm very interested also (even it will be a strong explanation !) to
          listen to your point of view about my Balin's Trouble (by Email if
          you agreed ...)

          To continue with another similary way about Tolkien's nordic
          takes ... I will speak of another clue that make me feel (stronger
          each day that pass, even now) that Tolkien used it : about word's
          games ...

          I start with a Tolkien citation :
          "Words always generate story in my mind"

          Exemple 1: Thorin & 'to dare'
          CITATION
          Thorin, of course, was really the grandson of the King under the
          Mountain, and there is no knowing what a dwarf will not -dare- and do
          for revenge or the recovery ofhis own.
          The Hobbit, X.


          Exemple 2: Bombur & 'drum'
          Bombur is playing -Drum- as instrument (Bumba = Drum), and He is the
          biggest of Thorin&Co
          The Hobbit, I.


          Exemple 3: Smaug & Creep CITATION
          "Because it is too small. 'Five feet high the door and three may walk
          abreast' say the runes, but Smaug could not -creep- into a hole that
          size, not even when he was a young dragon, certainly not after
          devouring so many of the dwarves and men of Dale."
          The Hobbit, I.

          Exemple 4: Forn (<Bombadil's dwarven nickname) & 'old' or 'ancient'
          "But I had forgotten Bombadil, if indeed this is still the same that
          walked the woods and hills long ago, and even then was older than
          the -old-. That was not then his name. Iarwain Ben-adar we called
          him, -oldest- and fatherless. But many another name he has since been
          given by other folk: Forn by the Dwarves, Orald by Northern Men, and
          other names beside. He is a strange creature, but maybe I should have
          summoned him to our Council."
          LoTR, Tome 1, T1, Chapitre II. The Council of Elrond

          Interresting or not ??

          ____________________________________________
          I used for my works some works like : (I'm French, and used Regis
          Boyer and F.X. Dillmann translations for the 'two' Edda)

          [GouldPMLA] C.-N. Gould, Dwarf-names : a study in old icelandic
          religion, in PMLA (Publications of the Modern Language Association of
          America),n°44, 1929, p939-967.

          [MotzFrümittelalterliche], Lotte Motz, New thoughts on Dwarfs-Names
          in Old Icelandic, Frümittelalterliche Studien 7, 1973, P.100-117

          [ZoëgaCDOI]Geir T. Zoëga, A Concise Dictionary of Old Icelandic,
          Dover Publication, INC. Mineola, New York 2004 (unabridged
          republication of 1910), 551p.

          Stéphane Grignon
          Alias Anglin, to serve thee
        • John D Rateliff
          Recently came across a nice little selection of Poe s poem from Scholastic with an introduction by Philip Pullman; a very pleasant discovery to find that, when
          Message 4 of 23 , Apr 4, 2006
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            Recently came across a nice little selection of Poe's poem from
            Scholastic with an introduction by Philip Pullman; a very pleasant
            discovery to find that, when he's writing about an author he likes
            and admires, Pullman is a very insightful critic. Recommended. Also
            just read Pullman's adaptation of Aladdin, the most interesting
            feature of which is the appearance of people of color throughout the
            illustrations (by Sophy Wms, an artist I don't know), rather than the
            all-white lot most children's illustrators use for Arabian Nights tales.

            Also, for those interested/fascinated/appalled by attempts by the
            less-talented to finish works by dead authors, there's a new
            collection either just out or just about to come out (not seen)
            called POE'S LIGHTHOUSE, ed. Christopher Conlon, where twenty-three
            authors "collaborate" with the late Edgar Poe, providing expansions,
            conclusions, or frames for the story Poe was working on when he died.
            Rbt Bloch tried this years ago and the result was a flop of
            Derlethian proportions; be interesting to see what this lot make of it.

            --JDR
          • Anglin Turcam
            As for the Problem of Balin , I ve come to the conclusion that ... like Dear Mr John, I have read now the Dronke s pages you ve gave me to read on your
            Message 5 of 23 , Dec 1, 2006
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              As for 'the Problem of Balin', I've come to the conclusion that
              > this represents a deliberate alteration by Tolkien of a name which
              > does appear in the EDDA, but the argument is too complicated for
              > quick explication in an e-mail; drop me a line off-list if you'd
              like

              Dear Mr John,
              I have read now the Dronke's pages you've gave me to read on your
              previous message ...
              She take some interresting choices to translate or traduce each of
              the dwarfs-names occuring in the Dvergatal (roster of dwarves in the
              Völuspá)but I've also mine whish are coming from some very acute
              french translators (Lecouteux, Dillmann, Boyer) including also Zoegä
              and Cleasby-Vigfusson Old Icelandic / English dictionnaries.

              A point is to made to the problem of Balin you speak previously :
              Curiously the names of Balin and Gloin are present also after the
              Azanulbizar Battle between Orcs and Dwarves and the burning of the
              Dwarven corpses (only one time in all the orcs/dwarfs war they burst
              upon the text !) and when we take a look closely to these two dwarfs-
              names we learned that :

              bál, n. (1) fire ; slá b. = drepa eld ;
              (2) flame, blaze ; gera b., to make a blaze ;
              (3) pyre, funeral pile ; bera e-n à b., to carry to the pyre ; stíga
              á b., to mount the pyre.
              [ZoëgaCDOI], p. 45A

              Balin may be from bál 'fire', and mean 'Burning-one'. (The -inn
              terminaison in these names indicates a past participle form.)
              [AllanGivingofNames], p. 223 (pp. 223-4 for other possible sources)

              and for Gloin :
              Glóinn The glowing one. Cp. glóa, 'to glow'.
              [GouldPMLA], p. 948

              Glóinn 'the glowing one'
              [MotzFrümittelalterliche], p. 104

              Glói Vsp. 15,4 R, Glóinn H; SnE I 66 GloiN rTW, gloni U; þul 5,2 d.c.
              gloinn ; glóa, v. 'to glow'_'the glowing one'.
              [MotzFrümittelalterliche], p. 114

              glóa (að, or óða, -ót), v. (1) to shine, glitter (2) to glow with
              heat.
              [ZoëgaCDOI], p. 167B

              Gloïnn Glowing-one
              [AllanGivingofNames], p. 222

              -----------------------------------------
              Bibliography :

              [GouldPMLA], C.-N. Gould, Dwarf-names : a study in old icelandic
              religion, in PMLA (Publications of the Modern Language Association of
              America),n°44, 1929, p939-967.

              [MotzFrümittelalterliche], Motz Lotte., New thoughts on Dwarfs-Names
              in Old Icelandic, Frümittelalterliche Studien 7, 1973, P.100-117

              [ZoëgaCDOI], Geir T. Zoëga, A Concise Dictionary of Old Icelandic,
              Dover Publication, INC. Mineola, New York 2004 (unabridged
              republication of 1910), 551p.

              [AllanGivingofNames], Allan Jim (éd) et al. An Introduction to Elvish
              and to other Tongues and Proper Names and Writing Systems of the
              Third Age of the Western Lands of Middle-Earth as set forth in the
              Published Writings of Professor John Ronald Reuel Tolkien. Hayes
              (Royaume Uni) Bran's Head Books, 1978, 303p.

              --------------------------------------
              If this dwarf-name (balin) could so mean the-one-who-carry-to-the-
              pyre, or funeral pyre, why no one who speaks about these Balin
              Problem said something like that ?
              (The Gloin name reveals also a relation between these two names and
              the funeral pyre and the burning of the dwarves !)

              Everybody known also that Balin occurs a second time in the Lord of
              the ring as a runic inscription on a tomb in Moria ?

              Did this names as to be taken all the time as a simple coincidence ?
              Or Text and rhymes shemes to fit with the other dwarfs-names ?
            • William Cloud Hicklin
              ... after the ... burning of the ... they burst ... two dwarfs- ... names and ... M. Turcam: I m afraid that this is most likely a coincidence. Tolkien wrote
              Message 6 of 23 , Dec 1, 2006
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                --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Anglin
                Turcam" <courrier_chroniques@...> wrote:

                > A point is to made to the problem of Balin you speak
                previously :
                > Curiously the names of Balin and Gloin are present also
                after the
                > Azanulbizar Battle between Orcs and Dwarves and the
                burning of the
                > Dwarven corpses (only one time in all the orcs/dwarfs war
                they burst
                > upon the text !) and when we take a look closely to these
                two dwarfs-
                > names we learned that :
                >
                > bál, n. (1) fire ; [snip]

                > (The Gloin name reveals also a relation between these two
                names and
                > the funeral pyre and the burning of the dwarves !)
                >
                M. Turcam:

                I'm afraid that this is most likely a coincidence. Tolkien
                wrote his account of Nanduhirion for the Appendices, some
                two decades after he created his "rabble of Eddaic-named
                Dwarves." The more probable explanation for Balin and Glóin
                being specifically named is simply that these two were the
                most "important" of Thorin's companions to the later story:
                Balin as the Dwarf friendliest to Bilbo, and who later led
                the failed Moria expedition; Glóin of course because he was
                at the Council of Elrond, and was Gimli's father.
              • Jason Fisher
                ... This is basically just what I was going to say as well. But I m curious to hear about some of your other findings / theories, Anglin. I sort of got the
                Message 7 of 23 , Dec 1, 2006
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                  > I'm afraid that this is most likely a coincidence.

                  This is basically just what I was going to say as well. But I'm curious to hear about some of your other findings / theories, Anglin. I sort of got the feeling we were joining a conversation already in progress, but I'm doing work in this area myself, so I'd be curious to hear more about your work off-list (as you suggested it was too complicated for the list). Drop me a line if you'd like to chat more about this ...

                  Jason Fisher

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Vincent Ferré
                  Dear Anglin, And what about the suggestion I made (the conference at the ENS Ulm you attended, in May 05) that Tolkien might have found names in re-writings
                  Message 8 of 23 , Dec 1, 2006
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                    Dear Anglin,

                    And what about the suggestion I made (the conference at the ENS Ulm you attended, in May '05) that Tolkien might have found names in re-writings of Chrétien de Troyes's romances ? I remember well a Belin and a Meliadoc in his Erec and Enid. Did you have a look at Malory ?

                    best wishes
                    Vincent

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Larry Swain
                    ... I d actually be interested in this too, I m preparing lecture notes on Tolkien s dwarves for a Tolkien class I m teaching next semester. --
                    Message 9 of 23 , Dec 1, 2006
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                      >
                      >
                      > > I'm afraid that this is most likely a coincidence.
                      >
                      > This is basically just what I was going to say as well. But I'm
                      > curious to hear about some of your other findings / theories,
                      > Anglin. I sort of got the feeling we were joining a conversation
                      > already in progress, but I'm doing work in this area myself, so I'd
                      > be curious to hear more about your work off-list (as you suggested
                      > it was too complicated for the list). Drop me a line if you'd like
                      > to chat more about this ...

                      I'd actually be interested in this too, I'm preparing lecture notes on Tolkien's dwarves for a Tolkien class I'm teaching next semester.

                      --
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                      Powered by Outblaze
                    • Larry Swain
                      ... You know, I kind of doubt it. Possible of course. But Chretien s names are derived either through French from English/Norse or through French from
                      Message 10 of 23 , Dec 1, 2006
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                        >
                        >
                        > Dear Anglin,
                        >
                        > And what about the suggestion I made (the conference at the ENS Ulm
                        > you attended, in May '05) that Tolkien might have found names in
                        > re-writings of Chrétien de Troyes's romances ? I remember well a
                        > Belin and a Meliadoc in his Erec and Enid. Did you have a look at
                        > Malory ?

                        You know, I kind of doubt it. Possible of course. But Chretien's names are derived either through French from English/Norse or through French from Brittonic...more likely to my mind that Tolkien derived the names from the original languages than from the intermediary sources....though certainly he was familiar enough with the Arthurian tradition.

                        ljs

                        --
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                      • William Cloud Hicklin
                        Hmmm. Is it remotely possible, I wonder, that the names suggested a story to Tolkien as he was writing App.A: Of the Dwarves? After all, the process of
                        Message 11 of 23 , Dec 1, 2006
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                          Hmmm. Is it remotely possible, I wonder, that the names
                          "suggested a story" to Tolkien as he was writing App.A: Of
                          the Dwarves? After all, the process of writing the history
                          and the family tree implies that he was once again sifting
                          through Voluspa (in bound form or from memory). Balin and
                          Glóin are, for reasons stated, the two non-royal dwarves
                          mentioned in connection with the battle. Could it be that
                          you're right: these names in fact did inspire the Great Pyre?


                          --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Swain" <theswain@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > > I'm afraid that this is most likely a coincidence.
                          > >
                          > > This is basically just what I was going to say as well.
                          But I'm
                          > > curious to hear about some of your other findings /
                          theories,
                          > > Anglin. I sort of got the feeling we were joining a
                          conversation
                          > > already in progress, but I'm doing work in this area
                          myself, so I'd
                          > > be curious to hear more about your work off-list (as you
                          suggested
                          > > it was too complicated for the list). Drop me a line if
                          you'd like
                          > > to chat more about this ...
                          >
                          > I'd actually be interested in this too, I'm preparing
                          lecture notes on Tolkien's dwarves for a Tolkien class I'm
                          teaching next semester.
                          >
                          > --
                          > _______________________________________________
                          > Surf the Web in a faster, safer and easier way:
                          > Download Opera 9 at http://www.opera.com
                          >
                          > Powered by Outblaze
                          >
                        • Jason Fisher
                          ... Yes, I agree with Larry. It s not beyond the realm of possibility, but I think it far more likely that Tolkien got the names directly from the Old Norse
                          Message 12 of 23 , Dec 1, 2006
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                            >> Dear Anglin,
                            >>
                            >> And what about the suggestion I made (the conference at the ENS Ulm
                            >> you attended, in May '05) that Tolkien might have found names in
                            >> re-writings of Chrétien de Troyes's romances ? I remember well a
                            >> Belin and a Meliadoc in his Erec and Enid. Did you have a look at
                            >> Malory ?

                            > You know, I kind of doubt it. Possible of course. But Chretien's names are
                            > derived either through French from English/Norse or through French from
                            > Brittonic... more likely to my mind that Tolkien derived the names from the
                            > original languages than from the intermediary sources....though certainly he
                            > was familiar enough with the Arthurian tradition.

                            Yes, I agree with Larry. It's not beyond the realm of possibility, but I think it far more likely that Tolkien got the names directly from the Old Norse than through a French intermediary. Many of the hobbit names seem to have come from the Continent, but the dwarves' names almost certainly didn't.

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Jason Fisher
                            ... It could be. Tolkien tended to start with a name, puzzling over its meaning, and a story often developed out of those linguistic musings. The fact that he
                            Message 13 of 23 , Dec 1, 2006
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                              > Hmmm. Is it remotely possible, I wonder, that the names
                              > "suggested a story" to Tolkien as he was writing App.A: Of
                              > the Dwarves? After all, the process of writing the history
                              > and the family tree implies that he was once again sifting
                              > through Voluspa (in bound form or from memory). Balin and
                              > Glóin are, for reasons stated, the two non-royal dwarves
                              > mentioned in connection with the battle. Could it be that
                              > you're right: these names in fact did inspire the Great Pyre?

                              It could be. Tolkien tended to start with a name, puzzling over its meaning, and a story often developed out of those linguistic musings. The fact that he chose Balin as a name for a dwarf in The Hobbit, of course, would have had nothing to do with this (being many years earlier), but the etymology of the name could indeed have brought this particular dwarf back into the forefront of his story-making later.

                              Jason Fisher

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Larry Swain
                              ... Just enquiring about the last statement....The hobbit names came from the Continent? Bracegirdles, Proudfoot, Baggins are Continental names? I ve done
                              Message 14 of 23 , Dec 1, 2006
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                                Jason wrote:

                                >
                                > Yes, I agree with Larry. It's not beyond the realm of possibility,
                                > but I think it far more likely that Tolkien got the names directly
                                > from the Old Norse than through a French intermediary. Many of the
                                > hobbit names seem to have come from the Continent,

                                Just enquiring about the last statement....The hobbit names came from the Continent? Bracegirdles, Proudfoot, Baggins are Continental names? I've done any sort of name-study, esp of the hobbits, so I'm curious.

                                ljs

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                              • William Cloud Hicklin
                                ... possibility, ... names directly ... Many of the ... names came from the Continent? Bracegirdles, Proudfoot, Baggins are Continental names? I ve done any
                                Message 15 of 23 , Dec 1, 2006
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                                  --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Swain" <theswain@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Jason wrote:
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > > Yes, I agree with Larry. It's not beyond the realm of
                                  possibility,
                                  > > but I think it far more likely that Tolkien got the
                                  names directly
                                  > > from the Old Norse than through a French intermediary.
                                  Many of the
                                  > > hobbit names seem to have come from the Continent,
                                  >
                                  > Just enquiring about the last statement....The hobbit
                                  names came from the Continent? Bracegirdles, Proudfoot,
                                  Baggins are Continental names? I've done any sort of name-
                                  study, esp of the hobbits, so I'm curious.


                                  Not the surnames, the rather pretentious given names of the
                                  Great Holes: Fredegar, Isengrim, Odavacar etc. Although I
                                  believe he cribbed the Brandybucks' names (Meriadoc,
                                  Gorbadoc, Saradoc) from Medieval Welsh.
                                  >
                                  > ljs
                                  >
                                  > --
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                                • Jason Fisher
                                  ... Right. And the source I think I was remembering (though there may have been other places I ve read about thism too) is Jim Allan s chapter, The Giving of
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Dec 1, 2006
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                                    > Not the surnames, the rather pretentious given names of the
                                    > Great Holes: Fredegar, Isengrim, Odavacar etc. Although I
                                    > believe he cribbed the Brandybucks' names (Meriadoc,
                                    > Gorbadoc, Saradoc) from Medieval Welsh.

                                    Right. And the source I think I was remembering (though there may have been other places I've read about thism too) is Jim Allan's chapter, "The Giving of Names", in An Introduction to Elvish. The section on Hobbits' names is pp. 190-212 and contains lots of interesting details.

                                    Jason Fisher

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Jason Fisher
                                    ... I just confirmed the dim recollection that the topic Carolingians in the Tolkien Encyclopedia comments on this as well. One of Mr. Lobdell s many
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Dec 1, 2006
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                                      > Right. And the source I think I was remembering (though there
                                      > may have been other places I've read about thism too) is Jim
                                      > Allan's chapter, "The Giving of Names", in An Introduction to
                                      > Elvish. The section on Hobbits' names is pp. 190-212 and
                                      > contains lots of interesting details.

                                      I just confirmed the dim recollection that the topic "Carolingians" in the Tolkien Encyclopedia comments on this as well. One of Mr. Lobdell's many entries.

                                      Jason

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • not_thou
                                      I m out of my depth here, but can suggest some sources to check: Regarding Hobbit first names, Arden Smith, citing Tolkien himself (in LotR s Appendix F?),
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Dec 1, 2006
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                                        I'm out of my depth here, but can suggest some sources to check:

                                        Regarding Hobbit first names, Arden Smith, citing Tolkien himself (in
                                        LotR's Appendix F?), talks a little about derivation of Took/Bolger
                                        personal names from ?Lombardic and Gothic in his paper in the
                                        Blackwelder collection, "Tolkienian Gothic".

                                        Regarding Hobbit last names, David Bratman presented a very
                                        entertaining paper at Birmingham in 2005 called "Hobbit Names Aren't
                                        from Kentucky", noting the last names were generally English but
                                        sometimes used more for sound than for sense, if I recall correctly.
                                        Has / will that paper be published?

                                        Regarding the dwarves' names... well, I was about to misremember a
                                        passage from Tolkien's letters, but I see that John Rateliff and
                                        Anglin Turkam thoroughly covered that subject earlier in this thread
                                        ("rabble of Eddaic-named Dwarves", etc. -- *Must remember to read
                                        backwards in the threads.*) As noted by others, this doesn't negate
                                        the possiblity of Tolkien folding in motifs from other sources when
                                        he returned to the dwarves for Appendix A, III -- but has anyone
                                        checked HoMe XII on this point? Also, noting Turkam's speculation of
                                        possible meanings for some dwarf names, is it true, as the (groan)
                                        Encyclopedia of Arda says, that "Dwalin" could mean "dawdler" in Old
                                        Norse? And could that explain the exceptionally long life of the
                                        first dwarf to appear in The Hobbit?

                                        Side-note: I'm not very familiar with message etiquette in group-
                                        lists: what's the preferred procedure for retaining or changing
                                        subject lines as the conversation drifts away from the original
                                        topic? Would it have been more or less helpful to readers for me to
                                        have changed the subject line of this message from "About dwarves and
                                        their connection with Nordic myth" to something like "Dwarf and
                                        hobbit names"?

                                        -Merlin DeTardo


                                        >--- "William Cloud Hicklin" <solicitr@...> wrote:
                                        >>--- "Larry Swain" <theswain@> wrote:
                                        >>>--- Jason wrote:
                                        >>> Yes, I agree with Larry. It's not beyond the realm of
                                        possibility, but I think it far more likely that Tolkien got the
                                        names directly from the Old Norse than through a French
                                        intermediary. Many of the hobbit names seem to have come from the
                                        Continent,
                                        >>Just enquiring about the last statement....The hobbit names came
                                        from the Continent? Bracegirdles, Proudfoot, Baggins are Continental
                                        names? I've done any sort of name-study, esp of the hobbits, so I'm
                                        curious.
                                        >Not the surnames, the rather pretentious given names of the Great
                                        Holes: Fredegar, Isengrim, Odavacar etc. Although I believe he
                                        cribbed the Brandybucks' names (Meriadoc, Gorbadoc, Saradoc) from
                                        Medieval Welsh.
                                      • Jason Fisher
                                        ... That may be true, yes. Zoëga has: dvala, v. to delay, put off dvalan, f. prolongation And other similar words. I ve also seen the meaning torpid but
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Dec 1, 2006
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                                          > Also, noting Turkam's speculation of possible meanings for
                                          > some dwarf names, is it true, as the (groan) Encyclopedia of
                                          > Arda says, that "Dwalin" could mean "dawdler" in Old Norse?
                                          > And could that explain the exceptionally long life of the first
                                          > dwarf to appear in The Hobbit?

                                          That may be true, yes. Zoëga has:

                                          dvala, v. to delay, put off
                                          dvalan, f. prolongation

                                          And other similar words. I've also seen the meaning "torpid" but haven't tried to track that down yet. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I'm currently doing work on this stuff.

                                          Jason Fisher

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • John D Rateliff
                                          ... I doubt it; Dvalin is one of the most famous of all dwarves in the Old Norse material, famed (among other things) as a great craftsman, and not notable for
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Dec 1, 2006
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                                            On Dec 1, 2006, at 5:26 PM, not_thou wrote:
                                            > Encyclopedia of Arda says, that "Dwalin" could mean "dawdler" in Old
                                            > Norse? And could that explain the exceptionally long life of the
                                            > first dwarf to appear in The Hobbit?

                                            I doubt it; Dvalin is one of the most famous of all dwarves in the
                                            Old Norse material, famed (among other things) as a great craftsman,
                                            and not notable for any "dawdling". In any case, the apparent
                                            "exceptionally long life" of Tolkien's character is I think the
                                            result of an error in the reckoning, not any intent on Tolkien's part
                                            to make him the Old Took of dwarves (that distinction belonging
                                            instead to Durin the First). Although, that said, it is very like
                                            Tolkien to add things to characters based on subsequent research that
                                            were not part of his initial inspiration; I just doubt that is the
                                            case in this instance.

                                            > Side-note: are my messages too long? I have noticed several
                                            > references on this list to matters deemed too complicated for this
                                            > format.

                                            There are no rules for length, so far as I know, but short posts are
                                            more likely to get responded to that long, complex ones. Changing
                                            headers to reflect changing focus of a post is always welcome. And
                                            trimming texts being responded to down to the relevant sections is
                                            definitely good form.

                                            Re. 'Tolkien Studies' vs. 'Middle-earth Studies', I think it's a
                                            false dichotomy to divide them. Some things I'm interested in might
                                            fall in one category, some in the other, and some cut across both.
                                            It's like trying to divide Lit from Lang; it's better to consider
                                            both aspects together.

                                            As for Brooke-Rose, it's been too long since I read her for me to
                                            respond in detail, but I thought at the time that her chief
                                            shortcoming was that she was writing a book about fantasy without any
                                            clear idea of what fantasy was, which made her comments seem random
                                            and unfocused.

                                            --JDR

                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Anglin Turcam
                                            ... Great Pyre? Thank s, it s perhaps after Mr John D Ratelif the only positive opinion about this fact. I m very sad to not write as goodly as I want to speak
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Dec 2, 2006
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                                              To William Cloud Hicklin :
                                              >> Could it be that you're right: these names in fact did inspire the
                                              Great Pyre?
                                              Thank's, it's perhaps after Mr John D Ratelif the only positive opinion
                                              about this fact. I'm very sad to not write as goodly as I want to speak
                                              about my point of view of my 'paradox' for the 'editorial concession'
                                              conceded by Pr Tolkien about his dwarves and their possible relation
                                              with Old norse ones. I'm afraid that I have to say that I'm not agree
                                              with that fact commonly accepted by all the Tolkien Community ... there
                                              are too much things to much details to much words that make me think
                                              that Tolkien did really take a lot of things from Norse Dwarves (
                                              perhaps even to Norse Cosmogology about them ) to speak about a
                                              simple 'concession'. I want to go farther than Mr Shippey did realy
                                              goood about them, farther than the lots of ones that speak only about
                                              the Names occuring in Völuspá ...


                                              To Jason :
                                              >> so I'd be curious to hear more about your work off-list (as you
                                              suggested it was too complicated for the list). Drop me a line if you'd
                                              like ...

                                              Check your MailBox Jason ;)

                                              >> I'd actually be interested in this too, I'm preparing lecture notes
                                              on Tolkien's dwarves for a Tolkien class I'm teaching next semester.

                                              I work also about other interrestings things about Tolkien's dwarves
                                              like death/size/women/magical object (in fact in Letters Tolkien
                                              says 'Magic is Art' and the dwarves are Aulë childrens ....). Did you
                                              read french freely ?
                                              I can tell you that your lecture notes can be very interresting to me
                                              if you can send them to my mailbox ?

                                              Anglin.
                                            • alexeik@aol.com
                                              ... From: solicitr@mindspring.com To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 7:02 PM Subject: [mythsoc] Re: About dwarves and their connection with
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Dec 2, 2006
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                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: solicitr@...
                                                To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                                Sent: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 7:02 PM
                                                Subject: [mythsoc] Re: About dwarves and their connection with nordic myth ...

                                                Although I
                                                believe he cribbed the Brandybucks' names (Meriadoc,
                                                Gorbadoc, Saradoc) from Medieval Welsh. <<

                                                That, and even more from mediaeval Cornish and Breton. Alexei >
                                                .
                                                AActuaActua
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                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Larry Swain
                                                ... Anglin, I ll be happy to send them along when I ve finished them, pretty basic though. And yes, I read French. ljs --
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Dec 4, 2006
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                                                  >
                                                  > I work also about other interrestings things about Tolkien's dwarves
                                                  > like death/size/women/magical object (in fact in Letters Tolkien
                                                  > says 'Magic is Art' and the dwarves are Aulë childrens ....). Did you
                                                  > read french freely ?
                                                  > I can tell you that your lecture notes can be very interresting to me
                                                  > if you can send them to my mailbox ?
                                                  >
                                                  > Anglin.
                                                  >

                                                  Anglin,

                                                  I'll be happy to send them along when I've finished them, pretty basic though. And yes, I read French.

                                                  ljs

                                                  --
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