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RE: [mythsoc] Re: Flieger's Smith, and a question for academics

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  • Beth Russell
    ... Hammond and Scull quote many times from previously unpublished writings in their new Reader s Companion. There is an unpublished time scheme for LOTR
    Message 1 of 21 , Mar 17, 2006
      >What else is in this
      >Bodleian collection? How many unpublished papers, letters,
      >manuscripts, drafts? I thought everything came to light in The
      >History of Middle-earth, but obviously this is not the case (or is
      >only the case for Middle-earth). There are also the collections at
      >Marquette and Wheaton. Do any of you know the extent of these? Can we
      >expect more wonders from the people who do research at these places?
      >Sara Ciborski


      Hammond and Scull quote many times from previously unpublished writings
      in their new "Reader's Companion." There is an unpublished time scheme
      for LOTR that has many nuggets of information. For instance, that it
      Gimli, Aragorn, and Legolas did indeed see Saruman at the edge of
      Fangorn Forest. The book adds to the wonderful depth and
      interconnectedness of LOTR.

      Beth Russell



      The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
      Yahoo! Groups Links
    • saraciborski
      ... writings in their new Reader s Companion. ... writings is wonderful. But it raised the same question for me about the scope and contents of the various
      Message 2 of 21 , Mar 18, 2006
        --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Beth Russell" <russells@...> wrote:
        > Hammond and Scull quote many times from previously unpublished
        writings in their new "Reader's Companion."
        >
        > Beth Russell
        >
        > Yes, the Companion with its many quotes from previously unpublished
        writings is wonderful. But it raised the same question for me about the
        scope and contents of the various collections. I did get an answer off-
        list.

        Sara Ciborski
        >
        >
        > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
      • Lezlie
        ... This is a different essay than On Faery Stories in the tolkien Reader? Lezlie
        Message 3 of 21 , Mar 21, 2006
          --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "saraciborski" <saraciborski@...> wrote:

          > > before!
          > > Janet
          > >
          > Janet, your post reminds me of a question I've meant to ask group
          > members who are academics. I read Flieger's edition of Smith of
          > Wootton Major some months ago with great enjoyment, on account of the
          > transcriptions of manuscrips by Tolkien that she includes. Especially
          > wonderful, for those like me who love and hang on every word that
          > Tolkien ever wrote, is his essay "Smith of Wooten Major,"

          This is a different essay than "On Faery Stories" in the tolkien
          Reader? Lezlie
        • Croft, Janet B.
          Yes, it s an essay just on Smith. I read through it very quickly and will do it more justice later, but this is new, never-before-published material. David
          Message 4 of 21 , Mar 21, 2006
            Yes, it's an essay just on Smith. I read through it very quickly and
            will do it more justice later, but this is new, never-before-published
            material. David Bratman has a review in the latest Mythprint.

            Janet

            Especially
            > wonderful, for those like me who love and hang on every word that
            > Tolkien ever wrote, is his essay "Smith of Wooten Major,"

            This is a different essay than "On Faery Stories" in the tolkien Reader?
            Lezlie










            The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org Yahoo! Groups
            Links
          • John D Rateliff
            Yes, Verlyn s edition includes not just the entire text of SMITH with the Baynes illustrations but also a lot of previously unpublished material relating to
            Message 5 of 21 , Mar 21, 2006
              Yes, Verlyn's edition includes not just the entire text of SMITH with
              the Baynes illustrations but also a lot of previously unpublished
              material relating to the story:

              Tolkien's unfinished introduction to MacDonald's The Golden Key.
              A chronology and a list of characters, not all of whom appeared in
              the published tale.
              A facsimile of the composite manuscript/typescript of the first
              draft ("The Great Cake"), with transcription on facing pages, and the
              Plot Notes for the conclusion.
              ibid for the short interpolated "Lake of Tears" scene.
              a short note from Tolkien to Clyde Kilby describing the origin of
              the story, written in 1967 when he was negotiating with Wheaton over
              selling them the Smith papers (a deal which fell through).
              an essay Tolkien wrote about the story, speculating on various
              elements in it and adding a lot of detail about the characters,
              background, and setting.

              In short, absolutely essential reading for anyone interested in the
              story or in Tolkien's final thoughts on the interrelations between
              the human world and Faerie. Fortunately, amazon.co.uk ships to the US.

              --JDR


              On Mar 21, 2006, at 7:33 AM, Lezlie wrote:
              > This is a different essay than "On Faery Stories" in the Tolkien
              > Reader? Lezlie



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • David Bratman
              To my mind, Tolkien s essay on Smith is a fascinating piece that reveals as clearly as anything why Tolkien is a great writer. The one thing that got left
              Message 6 of 21 , Mar 21, 2006
                To my mind, Tolkien's essay on "Smith" is a fascinating piece that reveals
                as clearly as anything why Tolkien is a great writer.

                The one thing that got left out of the edition was the introduction that
                Tolkien used when he read Smith aloud once, before the story was published.

                At least as of the time I got it, you could buy this book through US Amazon
                as well as UK Amazon. (As there is no US edition, the UK edition is for
                sale in the US.) This might take longer than ordering it directly from the
                UK, but it might also be less expensive. Check how it is now and see.

                David Bratman
              • Mike Foster
                Just a quick holler to properly kudo [can it be a verb?] David s two reviews in the MYTHPRINT that the owl brought today. Nicely done, DB. Mike
                Message 7 of 21 , Mar 21, 2006
                  Just a quick holler to properly kudo [can it be a verb?] David's two
                  reviews in the MYTHPRINT that the owl brought today. Nicely done, DB.

                  Mike

                  David Bratman wrote:

                  >To my mind, Tolkien's essay on "Smith" is a fascinating piece that reveals
                  >as clearly as anything why Tolkien is a great writer.
                  >
                  >The one thing that got left out of the edition was the introduction that
                  >Tolkien used when he read Smith aloud once, before the story was published.
                  >
                  >At least as of the time I got it, you could buy this book through US Amazon
                  >as well as UK Amazon. (As there is no US edition, the UK edition is for
                  >sale in the US.) This might take longer than ordering it directly from the
                  >UK, but it might also be less expensive. Check how it is now and see.
                  >
                  >David Bratman
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Croft, Janet B.
                  The only lack I felt in reading the book was a bibliography of criticism on Smith, both what Flieger mentioned and other works, but that s just me, perhaps.
                  Message 8 of 21 , Mar 21, 2006
                    The only lack I felt in reading the book was a bibliography of criticism
                    on "Smith," both what Flieger mentioned and other works, but that's just
                    me, perhaps. A project for someone to tackle sometime... I got mine from
                    Amazon US.


                    Janet


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                    Of David Bratman
                    Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 1:56 PM
                    To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Flieger's Smith

                    To my mind, Tolkien's essay on "Smith" is a fascinating piece that
                    reveals as clearly as anything why Tolkien is a great writer.

                    The one thing that got left out of the edition was the introduction that
                    Tolkien used when he read Smith aloud once, before the story was
                    published.

                    At least as of the time I got it, you could buy this book through US
                    Amazon as well as UK Amazon. (As there is no US edition, the UK edition
                    is for sale in the US.) This might take longer than ordering it
                    directly from the UK, but it might also be less expensive. Check how it
                    is now and see.

                    David Bratman



                    The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org Yahoo! Groups
                    Links
                  • Sara Ciborski
                    I also feel this is a blemish on an otherwise excellent read: Fleiger could easily have provided such a bibliography, or even a short list of the best
                    Message 9 of 21 , Mar 21, 2006
                      I also feel this is a blemish on an otherwise excellent read: Fleiger could easily have provided such a bibliography, or even a short list of the best commentaries on "Smith" including her own in A Question of Time and Shippey's in Author of the Century.
                      Sara Ciborski
                      ---- Original Message -----
                      From: Croft, Janet B.
                      To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 3:08 PM
                      Subject: RE: [mythsoc] Re: Flieger's Smith


                      The only lack I felt in reading the book was a bibliography of criticism
                      on "Smith," both what Flieger mentioned and other works, but that's just
                      me, perhaps. A project for someone to tackle sometime... I got mine from
                      Amazon US.


                      Janet





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Carl F. Hostetter
                      Let s not assume that the lack of a such a bibliography is due to the author, as opposed to constraints imposed by the publisher on length and/or
                      Message 10 of 21 , Mar 21, 2006
                        Let's not assume that the lack of a such a bibliography is due to the
                        author, as opposed to constraints imposed by the publisher on length
                        and/or "scholarliness"....

                        On Mar 21, 2006, at 5:22 PM, Sara Ciborski wrote:

                        > I also feel this is a blemish on an otherwise excellent read:
                        > Fleiger could easily have provided such a bibliography, or even a
                        > short list of the best commentaries on "Smith" including her own in
                        > A Question of Time and Shippey's in Author of the Century.
                        > Sara Ciborski
                        > ---- Original Message -----
                        > From: Croft, Janet B.
                        > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 3:08 PM
                        > Subject: RE: [mythsoc] Re: Flieger's Smith
                        >
                        >
                        > The only lack I felt in reading the book was a bibliography of
                        > criticism
                        > on "Smith," both what Flieger mentioned and other works, but
                        > that's just
                        > me, perhaps. A project for someone to tackle sometime... I got
                        > mine from
                        > Amazon US.
                        >
                        >
                        > Janet
                      • David Bratman
                        ... I don t know what s behind this particular case, but Carl s claim is by no means as ridiculous as it may sound. Even university presses publishing
                        Message 11 of 21 , Mar 21, 2006
                          At 06:58 PM 3/21/2006 -0500, Carl F. Hostetter wrote:
                          >Let's not assume that the lack of a such a bibliography is due to the
                          >author, as opposed to constraints imposed by the publisher on length
                          >and/or "scholarliness"....

                          I don't know what's behind this particular case, but Carl's claim is by no
                          means as ridiculous as it may sound. Even university presses publishing
                          tenure-gathering books by actual professors are after their authors not to
                          put too much scholarly apparatus in their manuscripts. I'm currently
                          witnessing such a train wreck going on with a friend's book.

                          David Bratman
                        • Croft, Janet B.
                          That is extemely disheartening. I take pride in creating extensive, carefully-edited bibliographies and indexes for my books, and I find scholarly books
                          Message 12 of 21 , Mar 22, 2006
                            That is extemely disheartening. I take pride in creating extensive,
                            carefully-edited bibliographies and indexes for my books, and I find
                            "scholarly" books without them frustrating and far less useful than they
                            could be. I haven't run across this problem with a publisher -- yet --
                            and I hope I won't.


                            Janet Brennan Croft

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                            Of David Bratman
                            Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 6:53 PM
                            To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Flieger's Smith

                            At 06:58 PM 3/21/2006 -0500, Carl F. Hostetter wrote:
                            >Let's not assume that the lack of a such a bibliography is due to the
                            >author, as opposed to constraints imposed by the publisher on length
                            >and/or "scholarliness"....

                            I don't know what's behind this particular case, but Carl's claim is by
                            no means as ridiculous as it may sound. Even university presses
                            publishing tenure-gathering books by actual professors are after their
                            authors not to put too much scholarly apparatus in their manuscripts.
                            I'm currently witnessing such a train wreck going on with a friend's
                            book.

                            David Bratman



                            The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org Yahoo! Groups
                            Links
                          • Lezlie
                            Indeed-- I hope this trend is nipped in the bud. -- and, quickly! Lezlie
                            Message 13 of 21 , Mar 22, 2006
                              Indeed-- I hope this trend is nipped in the bud. -- and, quickly! Lezlie

                              --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Croft, Janet B." <jbcroft@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > That is extemely disheartening. I take pride in creating extensive,
                              > carefully-edited bibliographies and indexes for my books, and I find
                              > "scholarly" books without them frustrating and far less useful than they
                              > could be. I haven't run across this problem with a publisher -- yet --
                              > and I hope I won't.
                              >
                              >
                              > Janet Brennan Croft
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                              > Of David Bratman
                              > Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 6:53 PM
                              > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Flieger's Smith
                              >
                              > At 06:58 PM 3/21/2006 -0500, Carl F. Hostetter wrote:
                              > >Let's not assume that the lack of a such a bibliography is due to the
                              > >author, as opposed to constraints imposed by the publisher on length
                              > >and/or "scholarliness"....
                              >
                              > I don't know what's behind this particular case, but Carl's claim is by
                              > no means as ridiculous as it may sound. Even university presses
                              > publishing tenure-gathering books by actual professors are after their
                              > authors not to put too much scholarly apparatus in their manuscripts.
                              > I'm currently witnessing such a train wreck going on with a friend's
                              > book.
                              >
                              > David Bratman
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org Yahoo! Groups
                              > Links
                              >
                            • John D Rateliff
                              There are also line standards to consider. The nearest parallel to Verlyn s SWM is Wayne & Christina s FGH from 1999, where they print the final text, the
                              Message 14 of 21 , Mar 22, 2006
                                There are also line standards to consider. The nearest parallel to
                                Verlyn's SWM is Wayne & Christina's FGH from 1999, where they print
                                the final text, the earliest draft, and what supplementary material
                                exists (the fragmentary sequel) but don't feel called upon to list
                                the various essays focusing on FGH (and all such secondary materials
                                are of course absent from their earlier edition of ROVERANDOM).
                                Similarly, Christopher's editions of the LotR papers (HME VI-IX &
                                XII) don't include critical bibliographies of secondary material. The
                                focus is all these works is on the primary material by Tolkien, not
                                the secondary works about them, although outside pieces are cited on
                                specific points as relevant. I certainly don't have the space to
                                include a bibliography of everything worthwhile that's been written
                                about The Hobbit, which would be a book-length project in itself,
                                although Doug has made a good start with his bibliography (part IV:
                                Selected Criticism) in The Annotated Hobbit.
                                So, while I'd like to see bibliographies focusing on the shorter
                                works (almost all of which would start with Kocher), their absence
                                doesn't diminish these editions for me.
                                -JDR


                                On Mar 21, 2006, at 4:52 PM, David Bratman wrote:
                                > At 06:58 PM 3/21/2006 -0500, Carl F. Hostetter wrote:
                                >> Let's not assume that the lack of a such a bibliography is due to the
                                >> author, as opposed to constraints imposed by the publisher on length
                                >> and/or "scholarliness"....
                                >
                                > I don't know what's behind this particular case, but Carl's claim
                                > is by no
                                > means as ridiculous as it may sound. Even university presses
                                > publishing
                                > tenure-gathering books by actual professors are after their authors
                                > not to
                                > put too much scholarly apparatus in their manuscripts. I'm currently
                                > witnessing such a train wreck going on with a friend's book.
                                >
                                > David Bratman



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Carl F. Hostetter
                                The thing is, HarperCollins (at any rate, the division responsible for Tolkien) don t consider themselves to be scholarly publishers. So I don t guess they d
                                Message 15 of 21 , Mar 22, 2006
                                  The thing is, HarperCollins (at any rate, the division responsible
                                  for Tolkien) don't consider themselves to be scholarly publishers. So
                                  I don't guess they'd be inclined to see a scholarly apparatus as at
                                  all important or desirable.

                                  On Mar 22, 2006, at 9:33 AM, Croft, Janet B. wrote:

                                  > That is extemely disheartening. I take pride in creating extensive,
                                  > carefully-edited bibliographies and indexes for my books, and I find
                                  > "scholarly" books without them frustrating and far less useful than
                                  > they
                                  > could be. I haven't run across this problem with a publisher --
                                  > yet --
                                  > and I hope I won't.
                                  >
                                • John D Rateliff
                                  Just got my copy of the Blackwelder festschrift today, and well worth the wait. A quick skim confirms my memory that there were a lot of top-notch papers in
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Mar 22, 2006
                                    Just got my copy of the Blackwelder festschrift today, and well worth
                                    the wait. A quick skim confirms my memory that there were a lot of
                                    top-notch papers in here; looking forward to the chance to read them.
                                    pity Klamut and Van Caster's presentation on teaching Tolkien isn't
                                    here, since I missed their session, but still it's a remarkably
                                    complete record of a very good set of papers. Wayne & Christina did
                                    an exceptional job to get it out less than a year and a half after
                                    the conference. It goes on my shelf next to the Flieger-Hostetter
                                    edited LEGENDARIUM.
                                    Thought I'd mention here, since it came up a few days ago, that
                                    the brief memoir by Chuck Elston gives a good overview of the
                                    Blackwelder bequest now at Marquette, and Wayne's closing piece
                                    specifically surveys the various archival collections the Tolkienist
                                    will want to consult, and why.

                                    --JDR

                                    current reading: THE MIND OF RAVENS by Bernd Heinrich.
                                  • Mike Foster
                                    I add my lauds & matins to the superb editing job by Wayne and Christina. I m savoring these papers like Belgian chocolates: one a day. Chuck Elston s piece
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Mar 22, 2006
                                      I add my lauds & matins to the superb editing job by Wayne and
                                      Christina. I'm savoring these papers like Belgian chocolates: one a
                                      day. Chuck Elston's piece on Dick Blackwelder was very moving and
                                      soulful. A long-expected publication about a long-expected party.

                                      Sadly, today's mail also brought the news that Balin/ Greg of the One
                                      Ring Netwwork, first met at that Marquette conference, has died of
                                      cancer, a fellow fan and scholar of remarkable generosity and, even in
                                      Pasadena in January, wheel-chair bound, a cheery companion.

                                      RIP.

                                      Mike

                                      John D Rateliff wrote:

                                      >Just got my copy of the Blackwelder festschrift today, and well worth
                                      >the wait. A quick skim confirms my memory that there were a lot of
                                      >top-notch papers in here; looking forward to the chance to read them.
                                      >pity Klamut and Van Caster's presentation on teaching Tolkien isn't
                                      >here, since I missed their session, but still it's a remarkably
                                      >complete record of a very good set of papers. Wayne & Christina did
                                      >an exceptional job to get it out less than a year and a half after
                                      >the conference. It goes on my shelf next to the Flieger-Hostetter
                                      >edited LEGENDARIUM.
                                      > Thought I'd mention here, since it came up a few days ago, that
                                      >the brief memoir by Chuck Elston gives a good overview of the
                                      >Blackwelder bequest now at Marquette, and Wayne's closing piece
                                      >specifically surveys the various archival collections the Tolkienist
                                      >will want to consult, and why.
                                      >
                                      >--JDR
                                      >
                                      >current reading: THE MIND OF RAVENS by Bernd Heinrich.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                                      >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
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