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Re: Flieger's Smith, and a question for academics

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  • saraciborski
    ... gave ... seen ... Janet, your post reminds me of a question I ve meant to ask group members who are academics. I read Flieger s edition of Smith of Wootton
    Message 1 of 21 , Mar 17, 2006
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      --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Croft, Janet B." <jbcroft@...> wrote:
      >
      > I just got Verlyn Flieger's edition of _Smith of Wootton Major_ and
      gave
      > it a quick read-through last night. Lots of good stuff I've never
      seen
      > before!
      > Janet
      >
      Janet, your post reminds me of a question I've meant to ask group
      members who are academics. I read Flieger's edition of Smith of
      Wootton Major some months ago with great enjoyment, on account of the
      transcriptions of manuscrips by Tolkien that she includes. Especially
      wonderful, for those like me who love and hang on every word that
      Tolkien ever wrote, is his essay "Smith of Wooten Major," about the
      nature of Faery. It's some 18 pages long and a real treasure. Where,
      I wondered, did she find this? (This is not my main question yet.)
      It's not easy to discover, but in fact
      she says, in a note for one of the other pieces, that these
      manuscripts (which? all?) are in the Bodleian collection. Then
      remembering that she discusses Smith at some length in A Question of
      Time--indeed she discusses and quotes from this very essay--I checked
      and there this essay is clearly cited as a Bodleian manuscript.
      So, here's my question, arising from this wonder and delight at
      reading not-yet-encountered words of Tolkien. What else is in this
      Bodleian collection? How many unpublished papers, letters,
      manuscripts, drafts? I thought everything came to light in The
      History of Middle-earth, but obviously this is not the case (or is
      only the case for Middle-earth). There are also the collections at
      Marquette and Wheaton. Do any of you know the extent of these? Can we
      expect more wonders from the people who do research at these places?
      Sara Ciborski
    • Beth Russell
      ... Hammond and Scull quote many times from previously unpublished writings in their new Reader s Companion. There is an unpublished time scheme for LOTR
      Message 2 of 21 , Mar 17, 2006
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        >What else is in this
        >Bodleian collection? How many unpublished papers, letters,
        >manuscripts, drafts? I thought everything came to light in The
        >History of Middle-earth, but obviously this is not the case (or is
        >only the case for Middle-earth). There are also the collections at
        >Marquette and Wheaton. Do any of you know the extent of these? Can we
        >expect more wonders from the people who do research at these places?
        >Sara Ciborski


        Hammond and Scull quote many times from previously unpublished writings
        in their new "Reader's Companion." There is an unpublished time scheme
        for LOTR that has many nuggets of information. For instance, that it
        Gimli, Aragorn, and Legolas did indeed see Saruman at the edge of
        Fangorn Forest. The book adds to the wonderful depth and
        interconnectedness of LOTR.

        Beth Russell



        The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
        Yahoo! Groups Links
      • saraciborski
        ... writings in their new Reader s Companion. ... writings is wonderful. But it raised the same question for me about the scope and contents of the various
        Message 3 of 21 , Mar 18, 2006
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          --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Beth Russell" <russells@...> wrote:
          > Hammond and Scull quote many times from previously unpublished
          writings in their new "Reader's Companion."
          >
          > Beth Russell
          >
          > Yes, the Companion with its many quotes from previously unpublished
          writings is wonderful. But it raised the same question for me about the
          scope and contents of the various collections. I did get an answer off-
          list.

          Sara Ciborski
          >
          >
          > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
        • Lezlie
          ... This is a different essay than On Faery Stories in the tolkien Reader? Lezlie
          Message 4 of 21 , Mar 21, 2006
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            --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "saraciborski" <saraciborski@...> wrote:

            > > before!
            > > Janet
            > >
            > Janet, your post reminds me of a question I've meant to ask group
            > members who are academics. I read Flieger's edition of Smith of
            > Wootton Major some months ago with great enjoyment, on account of the
            > transcriptions of manuscrips by Tolkien that she includes. Especially
            > wonderful, for those like me who love and hang on every word that
            > Tolkien ever wrote, is his essay "Smith of Wooten Major,"

            This is a different essay than "On Faery Stories" in the tolkien
            Reader? Lezlie
          • Croft, Janet B.
            Yes, it s an essay just on Smith. I read through it very quickly and will do it more justice later, but this is new, never-before-published material. David
            Message 5 of 21 , Mar 21, 2006
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              Yes, it's an essay just on Smith. I read through it very quickly and
              will do it more justice later, but this is new, never-before-published
              material. David Bratman has a review in the latest Mythprint.

              Janet

              Especially
              > wonderful, for those like me who love and hang on every word that
              > Tolkien ever wrote, is his essay "Smith of Wooten Major,"

              This is a different essay than "On Faery Stories" in the tolkien Reader?
              Lezlie










              The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org Yahoo! Groups
              Links
            • John D Rateliff
              Yes, Verlyn s edition includes not just the entire text of SMITH with the Baynes illustrations but also a lot of previously unpublished material relating to
              Message 6 of 21 , Mar 21, 2006
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                Yes, Verlyn's edition includes not just the entire text of SMITH with
                the Baynes illustrations but also a lot of previously unpublished
                material relating to the story:

                Tolkien's unfinished introduction to MacDonald's The Golden Key.
                A chronology and a list of characters, not all of whom appeared in
                the published tale.
                A facsimile of the composite manuscript/typescript of the first
                draft ("The Great Cake"), with transcription on facing pages, and the
                Plot Notes for the conclusion.
                ibid for the short interpolated "Lake of Tears" scene.
                a short note from Tolkien to Clyde Kilby describing the origin of
                the story, written in 1967 when he was negotiating with Wheaton over
                selling them the Smith papers (a deal which fell through).
                an essay Tolkien wrote about the story, speculating on various
                elements in it and adding a lot of detail about the characters,
                background, and setting.

                In short, absolutely essential reading for anyone interested in the
                story or in Tolkien's final thoughts on the interrelations between
                the human world and Faerie. Fortunately, amazon.co.uk ships to the US.

                --JDR


                On Mar 21, 2006, at 7:33 AM, Lezlie wrote:
                > This is a different essay than "On Faery Stories" in the Tolkien
                > Reader? Lezlie



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • David Bratman
                To my mind, Tolkien s essay on Smith is a fascinating piece that reveals as clearly as anything why Tolkien is a great writer. The one thing that got left
                Message 7 of 21 , Mar 21, 2006
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                  To my mind, Tolkien's essay on "Smith" is a fascinating piece that reveals
                  as clearly as anything why Tolkien is a great writer.

                  The one thing that got left out of the edition was the introduction that
                  Tolkien used when he read Smith aloud once, before the story was published.

                  At least as of the time I got it, you could buy this book through US Amazon
                  as well as UK Amazon. (As there is no US edition, the UK edition is for
                  sale in the US.) This might take longer than ordering it directly from the
                  UK, but it might also be less expensive. Check how it is now and see.

                  David Bratman
                • Mike Foster
                  Just a quick holler to properly kudo [can it be a verb?] David s two reviews in the MYTHPRINT that the owl brought today. Nicely done, DB. Mike
                  Message 8 of 21 , Mar 21, 2006
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                    Just a quick holler to properly kudo [can it be a verb?] David's two
                    reviews in the MYTHPRINT that the owl brought today. Nicely done, DB.

                    Mike

                    David Bratman wrote:

                    >To my mind, Tolkien's essay on "Smith" is a fascinating piece that reveals
                    >as clearly as anything why Tolkien is a great writer.
                    >
                    >The one thing that got left out of the edition was the introduction that
                    >Tolkien used when he read Smith aloud once, before the story was published.
                    >
                    >At least as of the time I got it, you could buy this book through US Amazon
                    >as well as UK Amazon. (As there is no US edition, the UK edition is for
                    >sale in the US.) This might take longer than ordering it directly from the
                    >UK, but it might also be less expensive. Check how it is now and see.
                    >
                    >David Bratman
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                    >Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Croft, Janet B.
                    The only lack I felt in reading the book was a bibliography of criticism on Smith, both what Flieger mentioned and other works, but that s just me, perhaps.
                    Message 9 of 21 , Mar 21, 2006
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                      The only lack I felt in reading the book was a bibliography of criticism
                      on "Smith," both what Flieger mentioned and other works, but that's just
                      me, perhaps. A project for someone to tackle sometime... I got mine from
                      Amazon US.


                      Janet


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                      Of David Bratman
                      Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 1:56 PM
                      To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Flieger's Smith

                      To my mind, Tolkien's essay on "Smith" is a fascinating piece that
                      reveals as clearly as anything why Tolkien is a great writer.

                      The one thing that got left out of the edition was the introduction that
                      Tolkien used when he read Smith aloud once, before the story was
                      published.

                      At least as of the time I got it, you could buy this book through US
                      Amazon as well as UK Amazon. (As there is no US edition, the UK edition
                      is for sale in the US.) This might take longer than ordering it
                      directly from the UK, but it might also be less expensive. Check how it
                      is now and see.

                      David Bratman



                      The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org Yahoo! Groups
                      Links
                    • Sara Ciborski
                      I also feel this is a blemish on an otherwise excellent read: Fleiger could easily have provided such a bibliography, or even a short list of the best
                      Message 10 of 21 , Mar 21, 2006
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                        I also feel this is a blemish on an otherwise excellent read: Fleiger could easily have provided such a bibliography, or even a short list of the best commentaries on "Smith" including her own in A Question of Time and Shippey's in Author of the Century.
                        Sara Ciborski
                        ---- Original Message -----
                        From: Croft, Janet B.
                        To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 3:08 PM
                        Subject: RE: [mythsoc] Re: Flieger's Smith


                        The only lack I felt in reading the book was a bibliography of criticism
                        on "Smith," both what Flieger mentioned and other works, but that's just
                        me, perhaps. A project for someone to tackle sometime... I got mine from
                        Amazon US.


                        Janet





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Carl F. Hostetter
                        Let s not assume that the lack of a such a bibliography is due to the author, as opposed to constraints imposed by the publisher on length and/or
                        Message 11 of 21 , Mar 21, 2006
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                          Let's not assume that the lack of a such a bibliography is due to the
                          author, as opposed to constraints imposed by the publisher on length
                          and/or "scholarliness"....

                          On Mar 21, 2006, at 5:22 PM, Sara Ciborski wrote:

                          > I also feel this is a blemish on an otherwise excellent read:
                          > Fleiger could easily have provided such a bibliography, or even a
                          > short list of the best commentaries on "Smith" including her own in
                          > A Question of Time and Shippey's in Author of the Century.
                          > Sara Ciborski
                          > ---- Original Message -----
                          > From: Croft, Janet B.
                          > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 3:08 PM
                          > Subject: RE: [mythsoc] Re: Flieger's Smith
                          >
                          >
                          > The only lack I felt in reading the book was a bibliography of
                          > criticism
                          > on "Smith," both what Flieger mentioned and other works, but
                          > that's just
                          > me, perhaps. A project for someone to tackle sometime... I got
                          > mine from
                          > Amazon US.
                          >
                          >
                          > Janet
                        • David Bratman
                          ... I don t know what s behind this particular case, but Carl s claim is by no means as ridiculous as it may sound. Even university presses publishing
                          Message 12 of 21 , Mar 21, 2006
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                            At 06:58 PM 3/21/2006 -0500, Carl F. Hostetter wrote:
                            >Let's not assume that the lack of a such a bibliography is due to the
                            >author, as opposed to constraints imposed by the publisher on length
                            >and/or "scholarliness"....

                            I don't know what's behind this particular case, but Carl's claim is by no
                            means as ridiculous as it may sound. Even university presses publishing
                            tenure-gathering books by actual professors are after their authors not to
                            put too much scholarly apparatus in their manuscripts. I'm currently
                            witnessing such a train wreck going on with a friend's book.

                            David Bratman
                          • Croft, Janet B.
                            That is extemely disheartening. I take pride in creating extensive, carefully-edited bibliographies and indexes for my books, and I find scholarly books
                            Message 13 of 21 , Mar 22, 2006
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                              That is extemely disheartening. I take pride in creating extensive,
                              carefully-edited bibliographies and indexes for my books, and I find
                              "scholarly" books without them frustrating and far less useful than they
                              could be. I haven't run across this problem with a publisher -- yet --
                              and I hope I won't.


                              Janet Brennan Croft

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                              Of David Bratman
                              Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 6:53 PM
                              To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Flieger's Smith

                              At 06:58 PM 3/21/2006 -0500, Carl F. Hostetter wrote:
                              >Let's not assume that the lack of a such a bibliography is due to the
                              >author, as opposed to constraints imposed by the publisher on length
                              >and/or "scholarliness"....

                              I don't know what's behind this particular case, but Carl's claim is by
                              no means as ridiculous as it may sound. Even university presses
                              publishing tenure-gathering books by actual professors are after their
                              authors not to put too much scholarly apparatus in their manuscripts.
                              I'm currently witnessing such a train wreck going on with a friend's
                              book.

                              David Bratman



                              The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org Yahoo! Groups
                              Links
                            • Lezlie
                              Indeed-- I hope this trend is nipped in the bud. -- and, quickly! Lezlie
                              Message 14 of 21 , Mar 22, 2006
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                                Indeed-- I hope this trend is nipped in the bud. -- and, quickly! Lezlie

                                --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Croft, Janet B." <jbcroft@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > That is extemely disheartening. I take pride in creating extensive,
                                > carefully-edited bibliographies and indexes for my books, and I find
                                > "scholarly" books without them frustrating and far less useful than they
                                > could be. I haven't run across this problem with a publisher -- yet --
                                > and I hope I won't.
                                >
                                >
                                > Janet Brennan Croft
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                > Of David Bratman
                                > Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 6:53 PM
                                > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Flieger's Smith
                                >
                                > At 06:58 PM 3/21/2006 -0500, Carl F. Hostetter wrote:
                                > >Let's not assume that the lack of a such a bibliography is due to the
                                > >author, as opposed to constraints imposed by the publisher on length
                                > >and/or "scholarliness"....
                                >
                                > I don't know what's behind this particular case, but Carl's claim is by
                                > no means as ridiculous as it may sound. Even university presses
                                > publishing tenure-gathering books by actual professors are after their
                                > authors not to put too much scholarly apparatus in their manuscripts.
                                > I'm currently witnessing such a train wreck going on with a friend's
                                > book.
                                >
                                > David Bratman
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org Yahoo! Groups
                                > Links
                                >
                              • John D Rateliff
                                There are also line standards to consider. The nearest parallel to Verlyn s SWM is Wayne & Christina s FGH from 1999, where they print the final text, the
                                Message 15 of 21 , Mar 22, 2006
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                                  There are also line standards to consider. The nearest parallel to
                                  Verlyn's SWM is Wayne & Christina's FGH from 1999, where they print
                                  the final text, the earliest draft, and what supplementary material
                                  exists (the fragmentary sequel) but don't feel called upon to list
                                  the various essays focusing on FGH (and all such secondary materials
                                  are of course absent from their earlier edition of ROVERANDOM).
                                  Similarly, Christopher's editions of the LotR papers (HME VI-IX &
                                  XII) don't include critical bibliographies of secondary material. The
                                  focus is all these works is on the primary material by Tolkien, not
                                  the secondary works about them, although outside pieces are cited on
                                  specific points as relevant. I certainly don't have the space to
                                  include a bibliography of everything worthwhile that's been written
                                  about The Hobbit, which would be a book-length project in itself,
                                  although Doug has made a good start with his bibliography (part IV:
                                  Selected Criticism) in The Annotated Hobbit.
                                  So, while I'd like to see bibliographies focusing on the shorter
                                  works (almost all of which would start with Kocher), their absence
                                  doesn't diminish these editions for me.
                                  -JDR


                                  On Mar 21, 2006, at 4:52 PM, David Bratman wrote:
                                  > At 06:58 PM 3/21/2006 -0500, Carl F. Hostetter wrote:
                                  >> Let's not assume that the lack of a such a bibliography is due to the
                                  >> author, as opposed to constraints imposed by the publisher on length
                                  >> and/or "scholarliness"....
                                  >
                                  > I don't know what's behind this particular case, but Carl's claim
                                  > is by no
                                  > means as ridiculous as it may sound. Even university presses
                                  > publishing
                                  > tenure-gathering books by actual professors are after their authors
                                  > not to
                                  > put too much scholarly apparatus in their manuscripts. I'm currently
                                  > witnessing such a train wreck going on with a friend's book.
                                  >
                                  > David Bratman



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Carl F. Hostetter
                                  The thing is, HarperCollins (at any rate, the division responsible for Tolkien) don t consider themselves to be scholarly publishers. So I don t guess they d
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Mar 22, 2006
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                                    The thing is, HarperCollins (at any rate, the division responsible
                                    for Tolkien) don't consider themselves to be scholarly publishers. So
                                    I don't guess they'd be inclined to see a scholarly apparatus as at
                                    all important or desirable.

                                    On Mar 22, 2006, at 9:33 AM, Croft, Janet B. wrote:

                                    > That is extemely disheartening. I take pride in creating extensive,
                                    > carefully-edited bibliographies and indexes for my books, and I find
                                    > "scholarly" books without them frustrating and far less useful than
                                    > they
                                    > could be. I haven't run across this problem with a publisher --
                                    > yet --
                                    > and I hope I won't.
                                    >
                                  • John D Rateliff
                                    Just got my copy of the Blackwelder festschrift today, and well worth the wait. A quick skim confirms my memory that there were a lot of top-notch papers in
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Mar 22, 2006
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                                      Just got my copy of the Blackwelder festschrift today, and well worth
                                      the wait. A quick skim confirms my memory that there were a lot of
                                      top-notch papers in here; looking forward to the chance to read them.
                                      pity Klamut and Van Caster's presentation on teaching Tolkien isn't
                                      here, since I missed their session, but still it's a remarkably
                                      complete record of a very good set of papers. Wayne & Christina did
                                      an exceptional job to get it out less than a year and a half after
                                      the conference. It goes on my shelf next to the Flieger-Hostetter
                                      edited LEGENDARIUM.
                                      Thought I'd mention here, since it came up a few days ago, that
                                      the brief memoir by Chuck Elston gives a good overview of the
                                      Blackwelder bequest now at Marquette, and Wayne's closing piece
                                      specifically surveys the various archival collections the Tolkienist
                                      will want to consult, and why.

                                      --JDR

                                      current reading: THE MIND OF RAVENS by Bernd Heinrich.
                                    • Mike Foster
                                      I add my lauds & matins to the superb editing job by Wayne and Christina. I m savoring these papers like Belgian chocolates: one a day. Chuck Elston s piece
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Mar 22, 2006
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                                        I add my lauds & matins to the superb editing job by Wayne and
                                        Christina. I'm savoring these papers like Belgian chocolates: one a
                                        day. Chuck Elston's piece on Dick Blackwelder was very moving and
                                        soulful. A long-expected publication about a long-expected party.

                                        Sadly, today's mail also brought the news that Balin/ Greg of the One
                                        Ring Netwwork, first met at that Marquette conference, has died of
                                        cancer, a fellow fan and scholar of remarkable generosity and, even in
                                        Pasadena in January, wheel-chair bound, a cheery companion.

                                        RIP.

                                        Mike

                                        John D Rateliff wrote:

                                        >Just got my copy of the Blackwelder festschrift today, and well worth
                                        >the wait. A quick skim confirms my memory that there were a lot of
                                        >top-notch papers in here; looking forward to the chance to read them.
                                        >pity Klamut and Van Caster's presentation on teaching Tolkien isn't
                                        >here, since I missed their session, but still it's a remarkably
                                        >complete record of a very good set of papers. Wayne & Christina did
                                        >an exceptional job to get it out less than a year and a half after
                                        >the conference. It goes on my shelf next to the Flieger-Hostetter
                                        >edited LEGENDARIUM.
                                        > Thought I'd mention here, since it came up a few days ago, that
                                        >the brief memoir by Chuck Elston gives a good overview of the
                                        >Blackwelder bequest now at Marquette, and Wayne's closing piece
                                        >specifically surveys the various archival collections the Tolkienist
                                        >will want to consult, and why.
                                        >
                                        >--JDR
                                        >
                                        >current reading: THE MIND OF RAVENS by Bernd Heinrich.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                                        >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
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