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RE: [mythsoc] Re: "good" characters in fiction

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  • Croft, Janet B.
    Well, the thing is, T-Faramir (Tolkien-Faramir) says this BEFORE being tested -- before he even knows for sure what Frodo carries or what his quest is. And
    Message 1 of 19 , Jan 23, 2006
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      Well, the thing is, T-Faramir (Tolkien-Faramir) says this BEFORE being
      tested -- before he even knows for sure what Frodo carries or what his
      quest is. And then he stands by what he says -- that is his test. I
      admit I do not have the films memorized, but it seems to me that
      J-Faramir tried to take the Ring from Frodo in an attempt to curry favor
      with his father -- not an act T-Faramir would ever contemplate, and not
      a sterling motivation either.


      Janet


      -----Original Message-----
      From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      Of Lezlie
      Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 11:46 AM
      To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [mythsoc] Re: "good" characters in fiction

      Yes-- after being tested. I always liked Faramir-- because he has an
      interesting path in the book. I still don't see him as "turning into
      Boromir" -- who was good, he was *tempted*, and gained redemption in the
      end. I think Jackson did a pretty good job -- if not perfect -- with
      Boromir, because is a more familiar character to a modern film
      maker-- flawed, but essentially good. <snip>.

      --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Croft, Janet B." <jbcroft@o...> wrote:
      >
      > "I would not take this thing, if it lay by the highway. Not were Minas

      > Tirith falling in ruin and I alone could save her, so, using the
      > weapon of the Dark Lord for her good and my glory." (Book 4, chap. 5)
      >
      > He's quite a bit more sterling in the book.
      >
      >
      > Janet
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On
      > Behalf Of Lezlie
      > Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 6:55 AM
      > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [mythsoc] Re: "good" characters in fiction
      >
      > Hi-- I am arriving late to this discussion -- I have the DVD and was
      > just watching it with a friend (by happenstance) -- I don't see this
      > "Faramir turning into Boromir" thing... other stuff is all wrong with
      > the film, but, I don't see that one...
      >
      > He is a truly sterling character, though. Lezlie
      >
      >
      > --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "menelvagor1939" <menelvagor1939@y...>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Hi Mike,
      > >
      > > I would certainly agree with you about Faramir. Indeed, one of the
      > > major blunders that Peter Jackson makes in his cinematic version of
      > > THE TWO TOWERS is to turn Faramir into Boromir.
      > >
      > > I'm not sure which characters you're referring to in Huck Finn, but
      > > I would say that a comic novel rathers detracts from goodness in
      itself.
      > >
      > > I can't speak about Graham Greene since, whenever I tried him, I
      > > found
      >
      > > him too gloomy for my taste. I don't know Jon Hassler, and am
      > > uncertain which characters of Jane Austen you favour. Could you
      > > elaborate?
      > >
      > > Ben
      > >
      > >
      > > In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, Mike Foster <mafoster@d...> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > I'm late to this party, so perhaps Faramir, Huck Finn, and Graham
      > > > Greene's whiskey priest from The Power & The Glory have already
      > > > been
      >
      > > > introduced, as well as some characters of Jane Austen and Jon
      > Hassler.
      > > >
      > > > Mike Foster
      > > >
      > > > mlcvamp@a... wrote:
      > > >
      > > > >I think Madeleine L'Engle is another author with an extraordinary

      > > > >talent for creating believable, three-dimensional good
      characters.
      > > > >Consider the Murry family and the Austin family.
      > > > >
      > > > >Margaret Carter
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org Yahoo!
      > > > >Groups
      >
      > > > >Links
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org Yahoo! Groups
      > Links
      >









      The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org Yahoo! Groups
      Links
    • Oberhelman, D
      Yup, J-Faramir wants to please Denethor who already knew about the Ring and had instructed Boromir to bring it back with him to Minas Tirith. That change opens
      Message 2 of 19 , Jan 23, 2006
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        Yup, J-Faramir wants to please Denethor who already knew about the Ring
        and had instructed Boromir to bring it back with him to Minas Tirith.
        That change opens up so many cans of worms my head simply reels!





        I am betraying my Victorian novel roots (my area before I went into
        academic library work which I do now), but George Eliot has some
        interesting "good" characters, though whether they are "believable" is
        somewhat debatable (Dorothea in Middlemarch or Dinah in Adam Bede do
        sound like mouthpieces for Eliot's moral philosophy).



        David







        ________________________________

        From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        Of Croft, Janet B.
        Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 1:22 PM
        To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [mythsoc] Re: "good" characters in fiction



        Well, the thing is, T-Faramir (Tolkien-Faramir) says this BEFORE being
        tested -- before he even knows for sure what Frodo carries or what his
        quest is. And then he stands by what he says -- that is his test. I
        admit I do not have the films memorized, but it seems to me that
        J-Faramir tried to take the Ring from Frodo in an attempt to curry favor
        with his father -- not an act T-Faramir would ever contemplate, and not
        a sterling motivation either.


        Janet


        -----Original Message-----
        From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        Of Lezlie
        Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 11:46 AM
        To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [mythsoc] Re: "good" characters in fiction

        Yes-- after being tested. I always liked Faramir-- because he has an
        interesting path in the book. I still don't see him as "turning into
        Boromir" -- who was good, he was *tempted*, and gained redemption in the
        end. I think Jackson did a pretty good job -- if not perfect -- with
        Boromir, because is a more familiar character to a modern film
        maker-- flawed, but essentially good. <snip>.

        --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Croft, Janet B." <jbcroft@o...> wrote:
        >
        > "I would not take this thing, if it lay by the highway. Not were Minas

        > Tirith falling in ruin and I alone could save her, so, using the
        > weapon of the Dark Lord for her good and my glory." (Book 4, chap. 5)
        >
        > He's quite a bit more sterling in the book.
        >
        >
        > Janet
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On
        > Behalf Of Lezlie
        > Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 6:55 AM
        > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [mythsoc] Re: "good" characters in fiction
        >
        > Hi-- I am arriving late to this discussion -- I have the DVD and was
        > just watching it with a friend (by happenstance) -- I don't see this
        > "Faramir turning into Boromir" thing... other stuff is all wrong with
        > the film, but, I don't see that one...
        >
        > He is a truly sterling character, though. Lezlie
        >
        >
        > --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "menelvagor1939" <menelvagor1939@y...>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi Mike,
        > >
        > > I would certainly agree with you about Faramir. Indeed, one of the
        > > major blunders that Peter Jackson makes in his cinematic version of
        > > THE TWO TOWERS is to turn Faramir into Boromir.
        > >
        > > I'm not sure which characters you're referring to in Huck Finn, but
        > > I would say that a comic novel rathers detracts from goodness in
        itself.
        > >
        > > I can't speak about Graham Greene since, whenever I tried him, I
        > > found
        >
        > > him too gloomy for my taste. I don't know Jon Hassler, and am
        > > uncertain which characters of Jane Austen you favour. Could you
        > > elaborate?
        > >
        > > Ben
        > >
        > >
        > > In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, Mike Foster <mafoster@d...> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > I'm late to this party, so perhaps Faramir, Huck Finn, and Graham
        > > > Greene's whiskey priest from The Power & The Glory have already
        > > > been
        >
        > > > introduced, as well as some characters of Jane Austen and Jon
        > Hassler.
        > > >
        > > > Mike Foster
        > > >
        > > > mlcvamp@a... wrote:
        > > >
        > > > >I think Madeleine L'Engle is another author with an extraordinary

        > > > >talent for creating believable, three-dimensional good
        characters.
        > > > >Consider the Murry family and the Austin family.
        > > > >
        > > > >Margaret Carter
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org Yahoo!
        > > > >Groups
        >
        > > > >Links
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org Yahoo! Groups
        > Links
        >









        The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org Yahoo! Groups
        Links







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      • Lezlie
        I don t think he does-- no -- in fact he doesn t. Not in the books or the films. He attempts to follow his father s orders and send any intruders to Minas
        Message 3 of 19 , Jan 24, 2006
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          I don't think he does-- no -- in fact he doesn't. Not in the books or
          the films. He attempts to follow his father's orders and send any
          intruders to Minas Tirith (which is explained in the film and in the
          book)-- then, after Sam blurts out about the Ring, he spends some time
          thinking, and finally, disobeys orders and sends the pair onward --
          with a heavy heart, believing their cause to be lost. It isn't instant
          in either thing, the book or the film -- it makes the following
          battles & the confrontation with Denethor even more interesting, IMHO.

          Later, Faramir tries to hold the river and and succumbs to the Black
          Breath. His healing, heart and body, walking with Eowyn in the House
          of Healing, make for interesting depth the last chapters of book 3. In
          the DVD version of the film, this part (much missed in the theatrical
          version)has been (somewhat) returned, but lacks the "troubadour"
          quality of the original (modern filmmakers just *do not get* this idea).

          Boromir was deeply tempted -- and conflicted- and he acted badly -- he
          also regretted his action, defended the Hobbits and lost his life. He
          gained redemption and saw the evil nature of the Ring in his last
          actions -- very much echoing some of the themes in his earlier tales
          in the "Silmarillion" (I'm thinking especially of Turin...), IMHO. I
          never interpreted Boromir's actions as being motivated by a desire "to
          curry favor" with Denethor, but actions born of absolute loyalty by a
          man "of action" who believed in what we would label a "military
          solution" today. I tend to think Tolkien was showing why that was the
          wrong answer-- and another effect of the Ring's ability to corrupt
          "good hearted men".

          I thought the film brought that out-- it's in the books, but half the
          people who've read it that I've talked to -- well -- it went right
          past them. The two brothers are alike, and different in their basic
          natures -- both their father's sons in interesting ways. the fact that
          they are brothers is also very interesting -- insights into Tolkien's
          themes and ideas abound in this little triangular relationship of
          Denethor, Faramir & Boromir-- about kinship, kingship, loyalty and
          lost Numenor -- I think the film (at least the DVD) did OK (not the
          Numenor part, though) with that, not nearly half as well as the books,
          but OK. I The films simply are not -- although Jackson's love for the
          material does show -- as deep or as well crafted as Tolkien books, you
          have no argument from me there. Neither Jackson nor the screenwriters
          are the master story-maker that Tolkien was. (And, never will be.)
          Lezlie



          --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Croft, Janet B." <jbcroft@o...> wrote:
          >
          > Well, the thing is, T-Faramir (Tolkien-Faramir) says this BEFORE being
          > tested -- before he even knows for sure what Frodo carries or what his
          > quest is. And then he stands by what he says -- that is his test. I
          > admit I do not have the films memorized, but it seems to me that
          > J-Faramir tried to take the Ring from Frodo in an attempt to curry favor
          > with his father -- not an act T-Faramir would ever contemplate, and not
          > a sterling motivation either.
          >
          >
          > Janet
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          > Of Lezlie
          > Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 11:46 AM
          > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [mythsoc] Re: "good" characters in fiction
          >
          > Yes-- after being tested. I always liked Faramir-- because he has an
          > interesting path in the book. I still don't see him as "turning into
          > Boromir" -- who was good, he was *tempted*, and gained redemption in the
          > end. I think Jackson did a pretty good job -- if not perfect -- with
          > Boromir, because is a more familiar character to a modern film
          > maker-- flawed, but essentially good. <snip>.
          >
          > --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Croft, Janet B." <jbcroft@o...> wrote:
          > >
          > > "I would not take this thing, if it lay by the highway. Not were Minas
          >
          > > Tirith falling in ruin and I alone could save her, so, using the
          > > weapon of the Dark Lord for her good and my glory." (Book 4, chap. 5)
          > >
          > > He's quite a bit more sterling in the book.
          > >
          > >
          > > Janet
          > >
          > >
          > > -----Original Message-----
          > > From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On
          > > Behalf Of Lezlie
          > > Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 6:55 AM
          > > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
          > > Subject: [mythsoc] Re: "good" characters in fiction
          > >
          > > Hi-- I am arriving late to this discussion -- I have the DVD and was
          > > just watching it with a friend (by happenstance) -- I don't see this
          > > "Faramir turning into Boromir" thing... other stuff is all wrong with
          > > the film, but, I don't see that one...
          > >
          > > He is a truly sterling character, though. Lezlie
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "menelvagor1939" <menelvagor1939@y...>
          > > wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Hi Mike,
          > > >
          > > > I would certainly agree with you about Faramir. Indeed, one of the
          > > > major blunders that Peter Jackson makes in his cinematic version of
          > > > THE TWO TOWERS is to turn Faramir into Boromir.
          > > >
          > > > I'm not sure which characters you're referring to in Huck Finn, but
          > > > I would say that a comic novel rathers detracts from goodness in
          > itself.
          > > >
          > > > I can't speak about Graham Greene since, whenever I tried him, I
          > > > found
          > >
          > > > him too gloomy for my taste. I don't know Jon Hassler, and am
          > > > uncertain which characters of Jane Austen you favour. Could you
          > > > elaborate?
          > > >
          > > > Ben
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, Mike Foster <mafoster@d...> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > I'm late to this party, so perhaps Faramir, Huck Finn, and Graham
          > > > > Greene's whiskey priest from The Power & The Glory have already
          > > > > been
          > >
          > > > > introduced, as well as some characters of Jane Austen and Jon
          > > Hassler.
          > > > >
          > > > > Mike Foster
          > > > >
          > > > > mlcvamp@a... wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > >I think Madeleine L'Engle is another author with an extraordinary
          >
          > > > > >talent for creating believable, three-dimensional good
          > characters.
          > > > > >Consider the Murry family and the Austin family.
          > > > > >
          > > > > >Margaret Carter
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org Yahoo!
          > > > > >Groups
          > >
          > > > > >Links
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org Yahoo! Groups
          > > Links
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org Yahoo! Groups
          > Links
          >
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