Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [mythsoc] Question about Narnia

Expand Messages
  • Mike Foster
    Jo and I did a dramatic reading of the Pitter-Lewis debate before tackling LWW at our December smial. You can hear the glee in Warnie s voice. Cheers, Mike ...
    Message 1 of 15 , Jan 4, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      Jo and I did a dramatic reading of the Pitter-Lewis debate before
      tackling LWW at our December smial.

      You can hear the glee in Warnie's voice.

      Cheers,
      Mike

      David Bratman wrote:

      >At 01:16 PM 1/4/2006 -0600, Mike Foster wrote:
      >
      >
      >>If it's always winter and never Christmas, where do Mr. Tumnus and Ma
      >>and Pa Beaver get the fixings for tea?
      >>
      >>
      >
      >"I must refer you to a further study of the text" -- C.S. Lewis.
      >"Nonsense, Jack; you're stumped and you know it" -- W.H. Lewis.
      >
      >
      >
      >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
      >Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Michael Martinez
      ... They aren t quite all so ignorant about Tolkien. There is at least one white supremacist site where Tolkien is reviled (as am I) for NOT being a white
      Message 2 of 15 , Jan 5, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Croft, Janet B." <jbcroft@o...> wrote:
        >
        > And as an aside, one of the papers I'm editing observes that there
        > are Aryan supremacy groups out there that support a racist reading
        > of LotR and love the movies for their "beautiful Nordic heroes,"
        > posting stills from the movies on their websites. Ik.

        They aren't quite all so ignorant about Tolkien. There is at least
        one white supremacist site where Tolkien is reviled (as am I) for NOT
        being a white supremacist himself. It was kind of funny to see them
        beating up on newcomers for liking Tolkien when I stumbled across that
        forum a couple of years ago.

        --
        Michael Martinez
        Author of Understanding Middle-earth, Parma Endorion, and Visualizing
        Middle-earth
        http://www.michael-martinez.com/
        "Cuando Maria canta, ella canta para mí"
      • John D Rateliff
        Also amusing, in a ghastly sort of way, is the article That Noble Northern Spirit , written years ago (circa 1979-1981) by a neo-Nazi who admired Tolkien but
        Message 3 of 15 , Jan 5, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          Also amusing, in a ghastly sort of way, is the article "That Noble
          Northern Spirit", written years ago (circa 1979-1981) by a neo-Nazi
          who admired Tolkien but who knew, from reading LETTERS OF JRRT, that
          Tolkien despised Nazism.
          Sharon, in addition to the quote David cites I'd also recommend
          your looking at letters #29 and #30 (LETTERS OF JRRT pages 37-38),
          where Tolkien repudiates 'aryan' theory. Nothing irritated Tolkien
          more than people or things which approached things he as interested
          in and "got it wrong", whether Wagner's RING, CSL's Narnia, Spenser's
          elves, Shakespeare's walking woods in MACBETH, &c. I suspect his
          distaste for Irish (cf. his love of Welsh) and French (as opposed to
          a sentimental attachment to Spanish) and possibly even his dislike of
          Charles Williams' Arthurian poems (very unlike his own "The Fall of
          Arthur") are a different manifestation of the same principal. It's in
          the things that concern us most closely, and which we care about the
          most, that we react most strongly against when a variant of them rubs
          us the wrong way.
          --JDR

          current reading: The Narnian (Jacobs)


          On Jan 5, 2006, at 8:47 AM, Michael Martinez wrote:
          >> Janet Croft wrote:
          >> And as an aside, one of the papers I'm editing observes that there
          >> are Aryan supremacy groups out there that support a racist reading
          >> of LotR and love the movies for their "beautiful Nordic heroes,"
          >> posting stills from the movies on their websites. Ik.
          >
          > They aren't quite all so ignorant about Tolkien. There is at least
          > one white supremacist site where Tolkien is reviled (as am I) for NOT
          > being a white supremacist himself. It was kind of funny to see them
          > beating up on newcomers for liking Tolkien when I stumbled across that
          > forum a couple of years ago.



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • David Bratman
          ... If it s written in that context it can t predate 1981, when Letters was published. However, the quote that I gave, and from which that article s title was
          Message 4 of 15 , Jan 5, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            At 10:53 AM 1/5/2006 -0800, John D Rateliff wrote:
            >Also amusing, in a ghastly sort of way, is the article "That Noble
            >Northern Spirit", written years ago (circa 1979-1981) by a neo-Nazi
            >who admired Tolkien but who knew, from reading LETTERS OF JRRT, that
            >Tolkien despised Nazism.

            If it's written in that context it can't predate 1981, when Letters was
            published. However, the quote that I gave, and from which that article's
            title was taken, first appeared in print in Carpenter's biography in 1977,
            p. 193-4.

            You don't say where the article may be found, if indeed it may.


            > Sharon, in addition to the quote David cites I'd also recommend
            >your looking at letters #29 and #30 (LETTERS OF JRRT pages 37-38),
            >where Tolkien repudiates 'aryan' theory.

            Oh yes, that's hysterical. Tolkien deliberately misconstrues Nazi race
            theory to show them up for the idiots they are. "I am not of Aryan
            extraction: that is Indo-iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors
            spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects." Then to the
            question of whether he's Jewish: "I regret that I appear to have no
            ancestors of that gifted people."


            >Nothing irritated Tolkien
            >more than people or things which approached things he as interested
            >in and "got it wrong", whether Wagner's RING, CSL's Narnia, Spenser's
            >elves, Shakespeare's walking woods in MACBETH, &c.

            ... Peter Jackson ...


            >It's in
            >the things that concern us most closely, and which we care about the
            >most, that we react most strongly against when a variant of them rubs
            >us the wrong way.

            Indeed.


            DB
          • John D Rateliff
            ... You re right; it has to be 1981ff. I never saw the original publication but was given a photocopy of it in 1981 or shortly thereafter; the publication
            Message 5 of 15 , Jan 5, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              On Jan 5, 2006, at 11:10 AM, David Bratman wrote:
              > If it's written in that context it can't predate 1981, when Letters
              > was
              > published. However, the quote that I gave, and from which that
              > article's
              > title was taken, first appeared in print in Carpenter's biography
              > in 1977,
              > p. 193-4.
              >
              > You don't say where the article may be found, if indeed it may.

              You're right; it has to be 1981ff. I never saw the original
              publication but was given a photocopy of it in 1981 or shortly
              thereafter; the publication information was written on it, and I
              don't remember it offhand all these years later. My copy isn't
              immediately accessible, but I'll send a copy of it to you next time I
              come across it, if you like.

              > Oh yes, that's hysterical. Tolkien deliberately misconstrues Nazi
              > race
              > theory to show them up for the idiots they are. "I am not of Aryan
              > extraction: that is Indo-iranian; as far as I am aware none of my
              > ancestors
              > spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects." Then
              > to the
              > question of whether he's Jewish: "I regret that I appear to have no
              > ancestors of that gifted people."
              >

              Indeed. His rejecting the term "Nordic" elsewhere is of a piece with
              this (LETTERS, page 375, he specifically dislikes it because "it is
              associated . . . with racialist [racist] theories"). And then too
              there's the matter of his modeling the Dwarves of THE HOBBIT on
              medieval Jewish craftsmen (esp. of Iberia) and on Old Testament
              Hebrew warrior-kings.
              By contrast, Robert Howard (author of the Conan stories) believed
              whole-heartedly in the Aryan myth; it would have been interesting, if
              he'd lived a few more years, to have seen how or if he distanced
              himself from the Nazi version/perversion/adaptation of that myth.
              [slightly off-topic, I know, but I was reminded of R.E.H. yesterday
              when I found out that his home town of Cross Plains, Texas was one of
              the area on fire and wondered if the Howard house survived this
              recent round of wildfires.] Spinrad's THE IRON DREAM points out the
              ways in which the two traditions were frightingly close, while
              Bernal's BLACK ATHENA for all its excesses does a great job of
              tracing how much of the old Aryan myth still underlies our ideas of
              early Eastern Mediterranean history (the interaction between Egypt,
              Phoenicia, Greece).


              >> Nothing irritated Tolkien
              >> more than people or things which approached things he as interested
              >> in and "got it wrong", whether Wagner's RING, CSL's Narnia, Spenser's
              >> elves, Shakespeare's walking woods in MACBETH, &c.
              >
              > ... Peter Jackson ...

              Well, yes; thought that went without saying.

              >> It's in
              >> the things that concern us most closely, and which we care about the
              >> most, that we react most strongly against when a variant of them rubs
              >> us the wrong way.
              >>
              >
              > Indeed.

              --JDR

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • David Bratman
              ... As a collector of some of the odder Tolkien spinoffs (I cherish an old miniatures catalog which names Pippin and Merry as sons of Sam, the author having
              Message 6 of 15 , Jan 5, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                At 11:46 AM 1/5/2006 -0800, John D Rateliff wrote:

                >You're right; it has to be 1981ff. I never saw the original
                >publication but was given a photocopy of it in 1981 or shortly
                >thereafter; the publication information was written on it, and I
                >don't remember it offhand all these years later. My copy isn't
                >immediately accessible, but I'll send a copy of it to you next time I
                >come across it, if you like.

                As a collector of some of the odder Tolkien spinoffs (I cherish an old
                miniatures catalog which names Pippin and Merry as sons of Sam, the author
                having apparently read nothing of LOTR except Appendix C), yes I'd be
                interested.


                > By contrast, Robert Howard (author of the Conan stories) believed
                >whole-heartedly in the Aryan myth; it would have been interesting, if
                >he'd lived a few more years, to have seen how or if he distanced
                >himself from the Nazi version/perversion/adaptation of that myth.

                A lot of people jumped back and forth on this, as others did over
                Communism. If we can't have Howard's views because he died too soon, how
                about H.P. Lovecraft's? A genteel racist who also believed in his own
                stock's superiority, he lived long enough to recognize Hitler for the evil
                that he was, and to his credit denounced Nazism before the war (which he
                didn't live to see). Lovecraft was also an economic conservative who came
                to see the virtue in the New Deal.


                >[slightly off-topic, I know, but I was reminded of R.E.H. yesterday
                >when I found out that his home town of Cross Plains, Texas was one of
                >the area on fire and wondered if the Howard house survived this
                >recent round of wildfires.]

                According to what I've read, it rather miraculously did. Possibly Joe
                Christopher, who lives two counties away, would know more.


                >> ... Peter Jackson ...
                >
                >Well, yes; thought that went without saying.

                Considering some of the things you've said in the past in defense of the
                films, I rather thought it didn't.


                >Interesting. I don't understand his or her remark about there not
                >being any Tolkien adaptations, unless by this he or she means that no
                >one has messed with Tolkien's text, as they have with Lewis's LWW.

                I think she meant to say that the existing films messed with the text so
                greatly that she refused to accept them as Tolkien adaptations.


                >As for his or her deciding not to see films the v. thought of which
                >made him or her "irrationally angry", that seems like a good call. I
                >have to wonder, though, about the whole secondary separation thing;
                >seems like a huge investment of mental energy to find out everyone
                >involved in all three films and then keeping track of their role in
                >subsequent films so he or she can boycott them all. What a waste of
                >time and energy.

                That puzzled me too, as the actors were not the problem with the films,
                even when miscast. Besides, a boycott of all films with Jackson's actors
                in them would force one to skip out on the wonderful "Eternal Sunshine of
                the Spotless Mind".

                DB
              • Croft, Janet B.
                ... That puzzled me too, as the actors were not the problem with the films, even when miscast. Besides, a boycott of all films with Jackson s actors in them
                Message 7 of 15 , Jan 5, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  >As for his or her deciding not to see films the v. thought of which
                  >made him or her "irrationally angry", that seems like a good call. I
                  >have to wonder, though, about the whole secondary separation thing;
                  >seems like a huge investment of mental energy to find out everyone
                  >involved in all three films and then keeping track of their role in
                  >subsequent films so he or she can boycott them all. What a waste of
                  >time and energy.

                  That puzzled me too, as the actors were not the problem with the films,
                  even when miscast. Besides, a boycott of all films with Jackson's
                  actors in them would force one to skip out on the wonderful "Eternal
                  Sunshine of the Spotless Mind".

                  DB

                  ** And I for one would hate to have to boycott everything else Sir Ian
                  McKellan appeared in. But you won't see me in line to see King Kong, not
                  at prices today and not when it means _paying_ to sit through
                  anti-piracy ads.

                  Janet


                  The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org Yahoo! Groups
                  Links
                • Sharon Bolding
                  Thanks for all your references and pointers to these sources. I appreciate your insights. And now I have plenty of reading to get to...
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jan 9, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Thanks for all your references and pointers to these sources. I
                    appreciate your insights. And now I have plenty of reading to get to...
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.