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[mythsoc] Question about Narnia

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  • David Bratman
    ... I must refer you to a further study of the text -- C.S. Lewis. Nonsense, Jack; you re stumped and you know it -- W.H. Lewis.
    Message 1 of 15 , Jan 4, 2006
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      At 01:16 PM 1/4/2006 -0600, Mike Foster wrote:
      >If it's always winter and never Christmas, where do Mr. Tumnus and Ma
      >and Pa Beaver get the fixings for tea?

      "I must refer you to a further study of the text" -- C.S. Lewis.
      "Nonsense, Jack; you're stumped and you know it" -- W.H. Lewis.
    • Croft, Janet B.
      Whereas potatoes and tobacco grew wild on Numenor and were brought to Middle-earth by the settlers of Gondor and Anor, who thought of them as attractive garden
      Message 2 of 15 , Jan 4, 2006
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        Whereas potatoes and tobacco grew wild on Numenor and were brought to
        Middle-earth by the settlers of Gondor and Anor, who thought of them as
        attractive garden plants. They died out in most of Middle-earth, as
        palynologists studying core samples from ponds and glaciers have
        discovered, except for the species bred and cultivated in the Shire.


        Janet
        -----Original Message-----
        From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        Of David Bratman
        Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 3:00 PM
        To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [mythsoc] Question about Narnia

        At 01:16 PM 1/4/2006 -0600, Mike Foster wrote:
        >If it's always winter and never Christmas, where do Mr. Tumnus and Ma
        >and Pa Beaver get the fixings for tea?

        "I must refer you to a further study of the text" -- C.S. Lewis.
        "Nonsense, Jack; you're stumped and you know it" -- W.H. Lewis.



        The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org Yahoo! Groups
        Links
      • Mike Foster
        Jo and I did a dramatic reading of the Pitter-Lewis debate before tackling LWW at our December smial. You can hear the glee in Warnie s voice. Cheers, Mike ...
        Message 3 of 15 , Jan 4, 2006
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          Jo and I did a dramatic reading of the Pitter-Lewis debate before
          tackling LWW at our December smial.

          You can hear the glee in Warnie's voice.

          Cheers,
          Mike

          David Bratman wrote:

          >At 01:16 PM 1/4/2006 -0600, Mike Foster wrote:
          >
          >
          >>If it's always winter and never Christmas, where do Mr. Tumnus and Ma
          >>and Pa Beaver get the fixings for tea?
          >>
          >>
          >
          >"I must refer you to a further study of the text" -- C.S. Lewis.
          >"Nonsense, Jack; you're stumped and you know it" -- W.H. Lewis.
          >
          >
          >
          >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Berni Phillips
          ... Oh, so that explains the casting of Eowyn (or however you spell her name -- I don t have a copy of the text where I am). I couldn t figure out how they
          Message 4 of 15 , Jan 4, 2006
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            >From: "Croft, Janet B." <jbcroft@...>
            >

            >And as an aside, one of the papers I'm editing observes that there are
            >Aryan supremacy groups out there that support a racist reading of LotR
            >and love the movies for their "beautiful Nordic heroes," posting stills
            >from the movies on their websites. Ik.
            >
            >Janet Brennan Croft

            Oh, so that explains the casting of Eowyn (or however you spell her name -- I don't have a copy of the text where I am). I couldn't figure out how they cast someone so bright and sunny as the ice princess of the text. I *liked* the actress; she just wasn't as described in the book.

            Pick, pick, pick,
            Berni
          • Michael Martinez
            ... They aren t quite all so ignorant about Tolkien. There is at least one white supremacist site where Tolkien is reviled (as am I) for NOT being a white
            Message 5 of 15 , Jan 5, 2006
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              --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Croft, Janet B." <jbcroft@o...> wrote:
              >
              > And as an aside, one of the papers I'm editing observes that there
              > are Aryan supremacy groups out there that support a racist reading
              > of LotR and love the movies for their "beautiful Nordic heroes,"
              > posting stills from the movies on their websites. Ik.

              They aren't quite all so ignorant about Tolkien. There is at least
              one white supremacist site where Tolkien is reviled (as am I) for NOT
              being a white supremacist himself. It was kind of funny to see them
              beating up on newcomers for liking Tolkien when I stumbled across that
              forum a couple of years ago.

              --
              Michael Martinez
              Author of Understanding Middle-earth, Parma Endorion, and Visualizing
              Middle-earth
              http://www.michael-martinez.com/
              "Cuando Maria canta, ella canta para mí"
            • John D Rateliff
              Also amusing, in a ghastly sort of way, is the article That Noble Northern Spirit , written years ago (circa 1979-1981) by a neo-Nazi who admired Tolkien but
              Message 6 of 15 , Jan 5, 2006
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                Also amusing, in a ghastly sort of way, is the article "That Noble
                Northern Spirit", written years ago (circa 1979-1981) by a neo-Nazi
                who admired Tolkien but who knew, from reading LETTERS OF JRRT, that
                Tolkien despised Nazism.
                Sharon, in addition to the quote David cites I'd also recommend
                your looking at letters #29 and #30 (LETTERS OF JRRT pages 37-38),
                where Tolkien repudiates 'aryan' theory. Nothing irritated Tolkien
                more than people or things which approached things he as interested
                in and "got it wrong", whether Wagner's RING, CSL's Narnia, Spenser's
                elves, Shakespeare's walking woods in MACBETH, &c. I suspect his
                distaste for Irish (cf. his love of Welsh) and French (as opposed to
                a sentimental attachment to Spanish) and possibly even his dislike of
                Charles Williams' Arthurian poems (very unlike his own "The Fall of
                Arthur") are a different manifestation of the same principal. It's in
                the things that concern us most closely, and which we care about the
                most, that we react most strongly against when a variant of them rubs
                us the wrong way.
                --JDR

                current reading: The Narnian (Jacobs)


                On Jan 5, 2006, at 8:47 AM, Michael Martinez wrote:
                >> Janet Croft wrote:
                >> And as an aside, one of the papers I'm editing observes that there
                >> are Aryan supremacy groups out there that support a racist reading
                >> of LotR and love the movies for their "beautiful Nordic heroes,"
                >> posting stills from the movies on their websites. Ik.
                >
                > They aren't quite all so ignorant about Tolkien. There is at least
                > one white supremacist site where Tolkien is reviled (as am I) for NOT
                > being a white supremacist himself. It was kind of funny to see them
                > beating up on newcomers for liking Tolkien when I stumbled across that
                > forum a couple of years ago.



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • David Bratman
                ... If it s written in that context it can t predate 1981, when Letters was published. However, the quote that I gave, and from which that article s title was
                Message 7 of 15 , Jan 5, 2006
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                  At 10:53 AM 1/5/2006 -0800, John D Rateliff wrote:
                  >Also amusing, in a ghastly sort of way, is the article "That Noble
                  >Northern Spirit", written years ago (circa 1979-1981) by a neo-Nazi
                  >who admired Tolkien but who knew, from reading LETTERS OF JRRT, that
                  >Tolkien despised Nazism.

                  If it's written in that context it can't predate 1981, when Letters was
                  published. However, the quote that I gave, and from which that article's
                  title was taken, first appeared in print in Carpenter's biography in 1977,
                  p. 193-4.

                  You don't say where the article may be found, if indeed it may.


                  > Sharon, in addition to the quote David cites I'd also recommend
                  >your looking at letters #29 and #30 (LETTERS OF JRRT pages 37-38),
                  >where Tolkien repudiates 'aryan' theory.

                  Oh yes, that's hysterical. Tolkien deliberately misconstrues Nazi race
                  theory to show them up for the idiots they are. "I am not of Aryan
                  extraction: that is Indo-iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors
                  spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects." Then to the
                  question of whether he's Jewish: "I regret that I appear to have no
                  ancestors of that gifted people."


                  >Nothing irritated Tolkien
                  >more than people or things which approached things he as interested
                  >in and "got it wrong", whether Wagner's RING, CSL's Narnia, Spenser's
                  >elves, Shakespeare's walking woods in MACBETH, &c.

                  ... Peter Jackson ...


                  >It's in
                  >the things that concern us most closely, and which we care about the
                  >most, that we react most strongly against when a variant of them rubs
                  >us the wrong way.

                  Indeed.


                  DB
                • John D Rateliff
                  ... You re right; it has to be 1981ff. I never saw the original publication but was given a photocopy of it in 1981 or shortly thereafter; the publication
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jan 5, 2006
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                    On Jan 5, 2006, at 11:10 AM, David Bratman wrote:
                    > If it's written in that context it can't predate 1981, when Letters
                    > was
                    > published. However, the quote that I gave, and from which that
                    > article's
                    > title was taken, first appeared in print in Carpenter's biography
                    > in 1977,
                    > p. 193-4.
                    >
                    > You don't say where the article may be found, if indeed it may.

                    You're right; it has to be 1981ff. I never saw the original
                    publication but was given a photocopy of it in 1981 or shortly
                    thereafter; the publication information was written on it, and I
                    don't remember it offhand all these years later. My copy isn't
                    immediately accessible, but I'll send a copy of it to you next time I
                    come across it, if you like.

                    > Oh yes, that's hysterical. Tolkien deliberately misconstrues Nazi
                    > race
                    > theory to show them up for the idiots they are. "I am not of Aryan
                    > extraction: that is Indo-iranian; as far as I am aware none of my
                    > ancestors
                    > spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects." Then
                    > to the
                    > question of whether he's Jewish: "I regret that I appear to have no
                    > ancestors of that gifted people."
                    >

                    Indeed. His rejecting the term "Nordic" elsewhere is of a piece with
                    this (LETTERS, page 375, he specifically dislikes it because "it is
                    associated . . . with racialist [racist] theories"). And then too
                    there's the matter of his modeling the Dwarves of THE HOBBIT on
                    medieval Jewish craftsmen (esp. of Iberia) and on Old Testament
                    Hebrew warrior-kings.
                    By contrast, Robert Howard (author of the Conan stories) believed
                    whole-heartedly in the Aryan myth; it would have been interesting, if
                    he'd lived a few more years, to have seen how or if he distanced
                    himself from the Nazi version/perversion/adaptation of that myth.
                    [slightly off-topic, I know, but I was reminded of R.E.H. yesterday
                    when I found out that his home town of Cross Plains, Texas was one of
                    the area on fire and wondered if the Howard house survived this
                    recent round of wildfires.] Spinrad's THE IRON DREAM points out the
                    ways in which the two traditions were frightingly close, while
                    Bernal's BLACK ATHENA for all its excesses does a great job of
                    tracing how much of the old Aryan myth still underlies our ideas of
                    early Eastern Mediterranean history (the interaction between Egypt,
                    Phoenicia, Greece).


                    >> Nothing irritated Tolkien
                    >> more than people or things which approached things he as interested
                    >> in and "got it wrong", whether Wagner's RING, CSL's Narnia, Spenser's
                    >> elves, Shakespeare's walking woods in MACBETH, &c.
                    >
                    > ... Peter Jackson ...

                    Well, yes; thought that went without saying.

                    >> It's in
                    >> the things that concern us most closely, and which we care about the
                    >> most, that we react most strongly against when a variant of them rubs
                    >> us the wrong way.
                    >>
                    >
                    > Indeed.

                    --JDR

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • David Bratman
                    ... As a collector of some of the odder Tolkien spinoffs (I cherish an old miniatures catalog which names Pippin and Merry as sons of Sam, the author having
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jan 5, 2006
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                      At 11:46 AM 1/5/2006 -0800, John D Rateliff wrote:

                      >You're right; it has to be 1981ff. I never saw the original
                      >publication but was given a photocopy of it in 1981 or shortly
                      >thereafter; the publication information was written on it, and I
                      >don't remember it offhand all these years later. My copy isn't
                      >immediately accessible, but I'll send a copy of it to you next time I
                      >come across it, if you like.

                      As a collector of some of the odder Tolkien spinoffs (I cherish an old
                      miniatures catalog which names Pippin and Merry as sons of Sam, the author
                      having apparently read nothing of LOTR except Appendix C), yes I'd be
                      interested.


                      > By contrast, Robert Howard (author of the Conan stories) believed
                      >whole-heartedly in the Aryan myth; it would have been interesting, if
                      >he'd lived a few more years, to have seen how or if he distanced
                      >himself from the Nazi version/perversion/adaptation of that myth.

                      A lot of people jumped back and forth on this, as others did over
                      Communism. If we can't have Howard's views because he died too soon, how
                      about H.P. Lovecraft's? A genteel racist who also believed in his own
                      stock's superiority, he lived long enough to recognize Hitler for the evil
                      that he was, and to his credit denounced Nazism before the war (which he
                      didn't live to see). Lovecraft was also an economic conservative who came
                      to see the virtue in the New Deal.


                      >[slightly off-topic, I know, but I was reminded of R.E.H. yesterday
                      >when I found out that his home town of Cross Plains, Texas was one of
                      >the area on fire and wondered if the Howard house survived this
                      >recent round of wildfires.]

                      According to what I've read, it rather miraculously did. Possibly Joe
                      Christopher, who lives two counties away, would know more.


                      >> ... Peter Jackson ...
                      >
                      >Well, yes; thought that went without saying.

                      Considering some of the things you've said in the past in defense of the
                      films, I rather thought it didn't.


                      >Interesting. I don't understand his or her remark about there not
                      >being any Tolkien adaptations, unless by this he or she means that no
                      >one has messed with Tolkien's text, as they have with Lewis's LWW.

                      I think she meant to say that the existing films messed with the text so
                      greatly that she refused to accept them as Tolkien adaptations.


                      >As for his or her deciding not to see films the v. thought of which
                      >made him or her "irrationally angry", that seems like a good call. I
                      >have to wonder, though, about the whole secondary separation thing;
                      >seems like a huge investment of mental energy to find out everyone
                      >involved in all three films and then keeping track of their role in
                      >subsequent films so he or she can boycott them all. What a waste of
                      >time and energy.

                      That puzzled me too, as the actors were not the problem with the films,
                      even when miscast. Besides, a boycott of all films with Jackson's actors
                      in them would force one to skip out on the wonderful "Eternal Sunshine of
                      the Spotless Mind".

                      DB
                    • Croft, Janet B.
                      ... That puzzled me too, as the actors were not the problem with the films, even when miscast. Besides, a boycott of all films with Jackson s actors in them
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jan 5, 2006
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                        >As for his or her deciding not to see films the v. thought of which
                        >made him or her "irrationally angry", that seems like a good call. I
                        >have to wonder, though, about the whole secondary separation thing;
                        >seems like a huge investment of mental energy to find out everyone
                        >involved in all three films and then keeping track of their role in
                        >subsequent films so he or she can boycott them all. What a waste of
                        >time and energy.

                        That puzzled me too, as the actors were not the problem with the films,
                        even when miscast. Besides, a boycott of all films with Jackson's
                        actors in them would force one to skip out on the wonderful "Eternal
                        Sunshine of the Spotless Mind".

                        DB

                        ** And I for one would hate to have to boycott everything else Sir Ian
                        McKellan appeared in. But you won't see me in line to see King Kong, not
                        at prices today and not when it means _paying_ to sit through
                        anti-piracy ads.

                        Janet


                        The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org Yahoo! Groups
                        Links
                      • Sharon Bolding
                        Thanks for all your references and pointers to these sources. I appreciate your insights. And now I have plenty of reading to get to...
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jan 9, 2006
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                          Thanks for all your references and pointers to these sources. I
                          appreciate your insights. And now I have plenty of reading to get to...
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