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Re: [mythsoc] Digest Number 2071

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  • Cai Cherie
    Thank you Proudbrook for posting the CHE article that actually quotes Pullman. Up to now I have assumed that since Pullman is considered a good author, his
    Message 1 of 5 , Dec 3, 2005
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      Thank you Proudbrook for posting the CHE article that actually quotes Pullman. Up to now I have assumed that since Pullman is considered a good author, his objections to Narnia made sense. I had heard about his charges of sexism and racism and there is some of what we now consider to be sexism and racism in the books. Yet it obviously stems from Lewis's being at a certain time and place in history. And there is some violence that can be gratifying in ways alot of folks do not like to acknowledge, so the sadism charge has some truth to it (especially to the reader who is already prone in that direction and so picks up on it most readily.) But to say Lewis preaches that death is better than life or that there is no love in Narnia? No love?

      Is Pullman morally insane? Or he has never read Narnia? Unfortunetly, it must be one or the other, is there any other possibility? Perhaps he was drunk when he said that? If Pullman can lie to himself and others so as to say there is no love in Narnia, or if he is constitutionally unable to apphrend the love in Narnia, something is off. Way way off. Whatever bent him this badly is very sad and vey tragic, since he is said to have great talents. But he seems to be pleased to be bent so badly, and that is the saddest thing of all. Let us hope, pray and bless what is good in him in real hope that God will have mercy on him and bring him to his senses.

      Lets start at the beginning. Does anyone know -why- he is morally insane. If that was commonly understood, it might help him move on to a better understanding of himself and his views.

      Cai, who realizes she has been too patient and tolorent on this one.

      P.S.

      Rowling, in talking about some how some misguided conservative Christians saw develry in "Harry Potter" said something like -- "when a donkey looks in a mirror the author is not responsible for what the poor ass sees."




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    • Christine Howlett
      I think that Philip Pullman is a talented writer with great powers of imagination. I started reading his trilogy, having been intrigued by some reviews of the
      Message 2 of 5 , Dec 3, 2005
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        I think that Philip Pullman is a talented writer with great powers of
        imagination. I started reading his trilogy, having been intrigued by some
        reviews of the first book, The Golden Compass. It was very well-done, and
        the protagonist child, Lyra, was an interesting person and the parallel
        universe was powerfully imagined. I thought it was far too dark for the
        supposed target audience of children, but for teenagers and adults it was
        fine. The second book was another matter and I could not get over it. It
        was far darker and more violent, and it became explicit that the religious
        figures were the bad guys, which I could have accepted (power corrupts even
        the believers) except that the characters who had been violent and greedy in
        the first book are somehow now to become the good guys? No, can't handle
        that. I didn't pick up the third one. Between the book reviews and the
        comments among the mythsoccers it was obvious that I would have really
        disliked it. It seems such a shame and such a waste that a marvelously
        talented person like Pullman is putting this talent to trying to prove that
        black is white and bad is good. It does make me wonder what rabid preacher
        bit him as a child.
        Christine


        From: "Cai Cherie" <eternityfindsitself@...>
        To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>>
        > Thank you Proudbrook for posting the CHE article that actually quotes
        > Pullman. Up to now I have assumed that since Pullman is considered a good
        > author, his objections to Narnia made sense. I had heard about his
        > charges of sexism and racism and there is some of what we now consider to
        > be sexism and racism in the books. Yet it obviously stems from Lewis's
        > being at a certain time and place in history. And there is some violence
        > that can be gratifying in ways alot of folks do not like to acknowledge,
        > so the sadism charge has some truth to it (especially to the reader who is
        > already prone in that direction and so picks up on it most readily.) But
        > to say Lewis preaches that death is better than life or that there is no
        > love in Narnia? No love?
        >
        > Is Pullman morally insane? Or he has never read Narnia? Unfortunetly, it
        > must be one or the other, is there any other possibility? Perhaps he was
        > drunk when he said that? If Pullman can lie to himself and others so as
        > to say there is no love in Narnia, or if he is constitutionally unable to
        > apphrend the love in Narnia, something is off. Way way off. Whatever bent
        > him this badly is very sad and vey tragic, since he is said to have great
        > talents. But he seems to be pleased to be bent so badly, and that is the
        > saddest thing of all. Let us hope, pray and bless what is good in him in
        > real hope that God will have mercy on him and bring him to his senses.
        >
        > Lets start at the beginning. Does anyone know -why- he is morally
        > insane. If that was commonly understood, it might help him move on to a
        > better understanding of himself and his views.
        >
        > Cai, who realizes she has been too patient and tolorent on this one.
        >
        > P.S.
        >
        > Rowling, in talking about some how some misguided conservative Christians
        > saw develry in "Harry Potter" said something like -- "when a donkey looks
        > in a mirror the author is not responsible for what the poor ass sees."
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > Yahoo! Personals
        > Skip the bars and set-ups and start using Yahoo! Personals for free
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Bonnie Callahan
        Christine does raise a salient point. i ve seen victims of abuse that involved religious themes either become crazed atheist firebrands or found their own
        Message 3 of 5 , Dec 3, 2005
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          Christine does raise a salient point. i've seen victims of abuse that involved
          religious themes
          either become crazed atheist firebrands or found their own equally abusive
          cults. What goes on
          in these minds? I'd love to set Phil down in a pub and pick his brain over a
          couple of pints!

          Bonnie

          Christine Howlett wrote:

          > I think that Philip Pullman is a talented writer with great powers of
          > imagination. I started reading his trilogy, having been intrigued by some
          > reviews of the first book, The Golden Compass. It was very well-done, and
          > the protagonist child, Lyra, was an interesting person and the parallel
          > universe was powerfully imagined. I thought it was far too dark for the
          > supposed target audience of children, but for teenagers and adults it was
          > fine. The second book was another matter and I could not get over it. It
          > was far darker and more violent, and it became explicit that the religious
          > figures were the bad guys, which I could have accepted (power corrupts even
          > the believers) except that the characters who had been violent and greedy in
          > the first book are somehow now to become the good guys? No, can't handle
          > that. I didn't pick up the third one. Between the book reviews and the
          > comments among the mythsoccers it was obvious that I would have really
          > disliked it. It seems such a shame and such a waste that a marvelously
          > talented person like Pullman is putting this talent to trying to prove that
          > black is white and bad is good. It does make me wonder what rabid preacher
          > bit him as a child.
          > Christine
          >
          > From: "Cai Cherie" <eternityfindsitself@...>
          > To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>>
          > > Thank you Proudbrook for posting the CHE article that actually quotes
          > > Pullman. Up to now I have assumed that since Pullman is considered a good
          > > author, his objections to Narnia made sense. I had heard about his
          > > charges of sexism and racism and there is some of what we now consider to
          > > be sexism and racism in the books. Yet it obviously stems from Lewis's
          > > being at a certain time and place in history. And there is some violence
          > > that can be gratifying in ways alot of folks do not like to acknowledge,
          > > so the sadism charge has some truth to it (especially to the reader who is
          > > already prone in that direction and so picks up on it most readily.) But
          > > to say Lewis preaches that death is better than life or that there is no
          > > love in Narnia? No love?
          > >
          > > Is Pullman morally insane? Or he has never read Narnia? Unfortunetly, it
          > > must be one or the other, is there any other possibility? Perhaps he was
          > > drunk when he said that? If Pullman can lie to himself and others so as
          > > to say there is no love in Narnia, or if he is constitutionally unable to
          > > apphrend the love in Narnia, something is off. Way way off. Whatever bent
          > > him this badly is very sad and vey tragic, since he is said to have great
          > > talents. But he seems to be pleased to be bent so badly, and that is the
          > > saddest thing of all. Let us hope, pray and bless what is good in him in
          > > real hope that God will have mercy on him and bring him to his senses.
          > >
          > > Lets start at the beginning. Does anyone know -why- he is morally
          > > insane. If that was commonly understood, it might help him move on to a
          > > better understanding of himself and his views.
          > >
          > > Cai, who realizes she has been too patient and tolorent on this one.
          > >
          > > P.S.
          > >
          > > Rowling, in talking about some how some misguided conservative Christians
          > > saw develry in "Harry Potter" said something like -- "when a donkey looks
          > > in a mirror the author is not responsible for what the poor ass sees."
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ---------------------------------
          > > Yahoo! Personals
          > > Skip the bars and set-ups and start using Yahoo! Personals for free
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Mike Foster
          When I was teaching in Canterbury Christ Church University College in 2004, the Fiction & Drama sequence for first-years, Pullman s book--called Northern
          Message 4 of 5 , Dec 4, 2005
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            When I was teaching in Canterbury Christ Church University College in
            2004, the Fiction & Drama sequence for first-years, Pullman's
            book--called Northern Lights in the UK--was on the syllabus. I found
            the settings, the characters, and much else to admire, but of course it
            doesn't end per se--it would be like teaching Tolkien and stopping right
            after Fellowship.

            But of course Pullman is grinding away at his own dark Satanic mills,
            turning Mother Kirk into Mommy Dearest. Do you think his snarls at JRRT
            & CSL are a bit of a ploy, a pose, rather like Tolkien's professed
            mislike of Shakespeare?

            Mike

            Bonnie Callahan wrote:

            >Christine does raise a salient point. i've seen victims of abuse that involved
            >religious themes
            >either become crazed atheist firebrands or found their own equally abusive
            >cults. What goes on
            >in these minds? I'd love to set Phil down in a pub and pick his brain over a
            >couple of pints!
            >
            >Bonnie
            >
            >Christine Howlett wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            >>I think that Philip Pullman is a talented writer with great powers of
            >>imagination. I started reading his trilogy, having been intrigued by some
            >>reviews of the first book, The Golden Compass. It was very well-done, and
            >>the protagonist child, Lyra, was an interesting person and the parallel
            >>universe was powerfully imagined. I thought it was far too dark for the
            >>supposed target audience of children, but for teenagers and adults it was
            >>fine. The second book was another matter and I could not get over it. It
            >>was far darker and more violent, and it became explicit that the religious
            >>figures were the bad guys, which I could have accepted (power corrupts even
            >>the believers) except that the characters who had been violent and greedy in
            >>the first book are somehow now to become the good guys? No, can't handle
            >>that. I didn't pick up the third one. Between the book reviews and the
            >>comments among the mythsoccers it was obvious that I would have really
            >>disliked it. It seems such a shame and such a waste that a marvelously
            >>talented person like Pullman is putting this talent to trying to prove that
            >>black is white and bad is good. It does make me wonder what rabid preacher
            >>bit him as a child.
            >> Christine
            >>
            >>From: "Cai Cherie" <eternityfindsitself@...>
            >>To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>>
            >>
            >>
            >>>Thank you Proudbrook for posting the CHE article that actually quotes
            >>>Pullman. Up to now I have assumed that since Pullman is considered a good
            >>>author, his objections to Narnia made sense. I had heard about his
            >>>charges of sexism and racism and there is some of what we now consider to
            >>>be sexism and racism in the books. Yet it obviously stems from Lewis's
            >>>being at a certain time and place in history. And there is some violence
            >>>that can be gratifying in ways alot of folks do not like to acknowledge,
            >>>so the sadism charge has some truth to it (especially to the reader who is
            >>>already prone in that direction and so picks up on it most readily.) But
            >>>to say Lewis preaches that death is better than life or that there is no
            >>>love in Narnia? No love?
            >>>
            >>> Is Pullman morally insane? Or he has never read Narnia? Unfortunetly, it
            >>>must be one or the other, is there any other possibility? Perhaps he was
            >>>drunk when he said that? If Pullman can lie to himself and others so as
            >>>to say there is no love in Narnia, or if he is constitutionally unable to
            >>>apphrend the love in Narnia, something is off. Way way off. Whatever bent
            >>>him this badly is very sad and vey tragic, since he is said to have great
            >>>talents. But he seems to be pleased to be bent so badly, and that is the
            >>>saddest thing of all. Let us hope, pray and bless what is good in him in
            >>>real hope that God will have mercy on him and bring him to his senses.
            >>>
            >>> Lets start at the beginning. Does anyone know -why- he is morally
            >>>insane. If that was commonly understood, it might help him move on to a
            >>>better understanding of himself and his views.
            >>>
            >>> Cai, who realizes she has been too patient and tolorent on this one.
            >>>
            >>> P.S.
            >>>
            >>> Rowling, in talking about some how some misguided conservative Christians
            >>>saw develry in "Harry Potter" said something like -- "when a donkey looks
            >>>in a mirror the author is not responsible for what the poor ass sees."
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>---------------------------------
            >>>Yahoo! Personals
            >>>Skip the bars and set-ups and start using Yahoo! Personals for free
            >>>
            >>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
            >>>Yahoo! Groups Links
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
            >>Yahoo! Groups Links
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
            >Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Hugh Davis
            I am aware of and have read about Pullman, but I ve never read him. Could someone contact me off list to answer some questions, so I don t bog down the list
            Message 5 of 5 , Dec 4, 2005
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              I am aware of and have read about Pullman, but I've never read him. Could
              someone contact me off list to answer some questions, so I don't bog down
              the list with a rehash of old news?

              Thank you,

              Hugh Davis
              HughHDavis@...


              >From: Mike Foster <mafoster@...>
              >Reply-To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
              >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Digest Number 2071
              >Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 07:58:16 -0600
              >
              >When I was teaching in Canterbury Christ Church University College in
              >2004, the Fiction & Drama sequence for first-years, Pullman's
              >book--called Northern Lights in the UK--was on the syllabus. I found
              >the settings, the characters, and much else to admire, but of course it
              >doesn't end per se--it would be like teaching Tolkien and stopping right
              >after Fellowship.
              >
              >But of course Pullman is grinding away at his own dark Satanic mills,
              >turning Mother Kirk into Mommy Dearest. Do you think his snarls at JRRT
              >& CSL are a bit of a ploy, a pose, rather like Tolkien's professed
              >mislike of Shakespeare?
              >
              >Mike
              >
              >Bonnie Callahan wrote:
              >
              > >Christine does raise a salient point. i've seen victims of abuse that
              >involved
              > >religious themes
              > >either become crazed atheist firebrands or found their own equally
              >abusive
              > >cults. What goes on
              > >in these minds? I'd love to set Phil down in a pub and pick his brain
              >over a
              > >couple of pints!
              > >
              > >Bonnie
              > >
              > >Christine Howlett wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >>I think that Philip Pullman is a talented writer with great powers of
              > >>imagination. I started reading his trilogy, having been intrigued by
              >some
              > >>reviews of the first book, The Golden Compass. It was very well-done,
              >and
              > >>the protagonist child, Lyra, was an interesting person and the parallel
              > >>universe was powerfully imagined. I thought it was far too dark for the
              > >>supposed target audience of children, but for teenagers and adults it
              >was
              > >>fine. The second book was another matter and I could not get over it.
              >It
              > >>was far darker and more violent, and it became explicit that the
              >religious
              > >>figures were the bad guys, which I could have accepted (power corrupts
              >even
              > >>the believers) except that the characters who had been violent and
              >greedy in
              > >>the first book are somehow now to become the good guys? No, can't
              >handle
              > >>that. I didn't pick up the third one. Between the book reviews and the
              > >>comments among the mythsoccers it was obvious that I would have really
              > >>disliked it. It seems such a shame and such a waste that a marvelously
              > >>talented person like Pullman is putting this talent to trying to prove
              >that
              > >>black is white and bad is good. It does make me wonder what rabid
              >preacher
              > >>bit him as a child.
              > >> Christine
              > >>
              > >>From: "Cai Cherie" <eternityfindsitself@...>
              > >>To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>>Thank you Proudbrook for posting the CHE article that actually quotes
              > >>>Pullman. Up to now I have assumed that since Pullman is considered a
              >good
              > >>>author, his objections to Narnia made sense. I had heard about his
              > >>>charges of sexism and racism and there is some of what we now consider
              >to
              > >>>be sexism and racism in the books. Yet it obviously stems from Lewis's
              > >>>being at a certain time and place in history. And there is some
              >violence
              > >>>that can be gratifying in ways alot of folks do not like to
              >acknowledge,
              > >>>so the sadism charge has some truth to it (especially to the reader who
              >is
              > >>>already prone in that direction and so picks up on it most readily.)
              >But
              > >>>to say Lewis preaches that death is better than life or that there is
              >no
              > >>>love in Narnia? No love?
              > >>>
              > >>> Is Pullman morally insane? Or he has never read Narnia? Unfortunetly,
              >it
              > >>>must be one or the other, is there any other possibility? Perhaps he
              >was
              > >>>drunk when he said that? If Pullman can lie to himself and others so
              >as
              > >>>to say there is no love in Narnia, or if he is constitutionally unable
              >to
              > >>>apphrend the love in Narnia, something is off. Way way off. Whatever
              >bent
              > >>>him this badly is very sad and vey tragic, since he is said to have
              >great
              > >>>talents. But he seems to be pleased to be bent so badly, and that is
              >the
              > >>>saddest thing of all. Let us hope, pray and bless what is good in him
              >in
              > >>>real hope that God will have mercy on him and bring him to his senses.
              > >>>
              > >>> Lets start at the beginning. Does anyone know -why- he is morally
              > >>>insane. If that was commonly understood, it might help him move on to
              >a
              > >>>better understanding of himself and his views.
              > >>>
              > >>> Cai, who realizes she has been too patient and tolorent on this one.
              > >>>
              > >>> P.S.
              > >>>
              > >>> Rowling, in talking about some how some misguided conservative
              >Christians
              > >>>saw develry in "Harry Potter" said something like -- "when a donkey
              >looks
              > >>>in a mirror the author is not responsible for what the poor ass sees."
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>---------------------------------
              > >>>Yahoo! Personals
              > >>>Skip the bars and set-ups and start using Yahoo! Personals for free
              > >>>
              > >>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
              > >>>Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
              > >>Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
              > >Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
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