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RE: [mythsoc] count the errors

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  • David Bratman
    One of many factual errors in the article, although the distorted interpretations are even more harmful. (Even A.N. Wilson, the most salacious of Lewis s
    Message 1 of 18 , Nov 7, 2005
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      One of many factual errors in the article, although the distorted
      interpretations are even more harmful. (Even A.N. Wilson, the most
      salacious of Lewis's biographers - that should tell you how to rank his
      work - doesn't spend as much space in an entire book on Lewis's dark "inner
      drives" or his lusts for comely young matrons as White does in one short
      article.)

      The nugget of fact in the statement you query is that Lewis's later
      religious commentaries were not quite the aggressively muscular apologetics
      that his earlier books were.

      David Bratman


      At 02:25 PM 11/6/2005 -0600, Jay Hershberger wrote:

      >I don't know much about the shape and chronology of Lewis' life,
      >but even I was able to detect multiple errors in Mr. White's article.
      >For instance, Mr. White claims that Lewis never wrote another word of
      >"religious commentary" after 1949. Is this true? If I am mistaken,
      >please let me know; I thought that Letters to Malcolm and A Grief
      >Observed were both written rather late. Do they not count as "religious
      >commentary?" What about the Chronicles themselves? They at least
      >induce religious commentary by others. Any thoughts?
    • Jay Hershberger
      Thanks for the information, David. And to all who responded. I think I will start with Sayer s book on Lewis. Cheers, Jay Hershberger Moorhead, MN ... From:
      Message 2 of 18 , Nov 7, 2005
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        Thanks for the information, David. And to all who responded. I think I
        will start with Sayer's book on Lewis.

        Cheers,

        Jay Hershberger
        Moorhead, MN

        -----Original Message-----
        From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        Of David Bratman
        Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 9:56 AM
        To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [mythsoc] count the errors

        One of many factual errors in the article, although the distorted
        interpretations are even more harmful. (Even A.N. Wilson, the most
        salacious of Lewis's biographers - that should tell you how to rank his
        work - doesn't spend as much space in an entire book on Lewis's dark
        "inner
        drives" or his lusts for comely young matrons as White does in one short
        article.)

        The nugget of fact in the statement you query is that Lewis's later
        religious commentaries were not quite the aggressively muscular
        apologetics
        that his earlier books were.

        David Bratman


        At 02:25 PM 11/6/2005 -0600, Jay Hershberger wrote:

        >I don't know much about the shape and chronology of Lewis' life,
        >but even I was able to detect multiple errors in Mr. White's article.
        >For instance, Mr. White claims that Lewis never wrote another word of
        >"religious commentary" after 1949. Is this true? If I am mistaken,
        >please let me know; I thought that Letters to Malcolm and A Grief
        >Observed were both written rather late. Do they not count as
        "religious
        >commentary?" What about the Chronicles themselves? They at least
        >induce religious commentary by others. Any thoughts?



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      • John D Rateliff
        Actually, of the three main biographies on CSL, I d recommend starting with the Green & Hooper. That s the authorized biography, and it does the best job of
        Message 3 of 18 , Nov 7, 2005
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          Actually, of the three main biographies on CSL, I'd recommend starting with the Green & Hooper. That's the authorized biography, and it does the best job of discussing the main outlines of his life, works, and career. Although now more than thirty years old, it's still not been superceded as a whole. Then if you'd like to read more I'd read the Sayer next, since it's a warm portrait by a friend, as much memoir as biography; it'll convey why Lewis's friends thought so highly of him. Its main shortcoming is that it's too uncritical of its subject, which isn't that much of a flaw in a biography. Then I'd read the Wilson, who's deliberately iconoclastic and wants to establish that, all in all, CSL while talents was also a rather strange man.
          Or, if you want a shorter take on things, Carpenter's THE INKLINGS is as much a biography of CSL as the group.
          Enjoy!
          --JDR

          P.S.: "Never wrote another word" is White's garbled version of a comment by Carpenter that, after his mauling by Anscombe, CSL stopped writing straightforward apologetics for many years and, when he resumed, his religious books were much more personal in tone (e.g., MIRACLES, THE PROBLEM OF PAIN, MERE XIANITY vs. REFLECTIONS ON THE PSALMS and LETTERS TO MALCOLM: CHIEFLY ON PRAYER).


          -----Original Message-----
          From: Jay Hershberger <hershjay@...>
          Sent: Nov 7, 2005 10:27 AM
          To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [mythsoc] count the errors

          Thanks for the information, David. And to all who responded. I think I
          will start with Sayer's book on Lewis.

          Cheers,

          Jay Hershberger
          Moorhead, MN
        • Jay Hershberger
          Thanks, John. I look forward to reading them all. Cheers, Jay Hershberger Moorhead, MN ... From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On
          Message 4 of 18 , Nov 7, 2005
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            Thanks, John. I look forward to reading them all.

            Cheers,

            Jay Hershberger
            Moorhead, MN

            -----Original Message-----
            From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            Of John D Rateliff
            Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 12:46 PM
            To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com; mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [mythsoc] count the errors

            Actually, of the three main biographies on CSL, I'd recommend starting
            with the Green & Hooper. That's the authorized biography, and it does
            the best job of discussing the main outlines of his life, works, and
            career. Although now more than thirty years old, it's still not been
            superceded as a whole. Then if you'd like to read more I'd read the
            Sayer next, since it's a warm portrait by a friend, as much memoir as
            biography; it'll convey why Lewis's friends thought so highly of him.
            Its main shortcoming is that it's too uncritical of its subject, which
            isn't that much of a flaw in a biography. Then I'd read the Wilson,
            who's deliberately iconoclastic and wants to establish that, all in all,
            CSL while talents was also a rather strange man.
            Or, if you want a shorter take on things, Carpenter's THE INKLINGS is
            as much a biography of CSL as the group.
            Enjoy!
            --JDR

            P.S.: "Never wrote another word" is White's garbled version of a comment
            by Carpenter that, after his mauling by Anscombe, CSL stopped writing
            straightforward apologetics for many years and, when he resumed, his
            religious books were much more personal in tone (e.g., MIRACLES, THE
            PROBLEM OF PAIN, MERE XIANITY vs. REFLECTIONS ON THE PSALMS and LETTERS
            TO MALCOLM: CHIEFLY ON PRAYER).


            -----Original Message-----
            From: Jay Hershberger <hershjay@...>
            Sent: Nov 7, 2005 10:27 AM
            To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [mythsoc] count the errors

            Thanks for the information, David. And to all who responded. I think I
            will start with Sayer's book on Lewis.

            Cheers,

            Jay Hershberger
            Moorhead, MN



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          • David Bratman
            ... I d start with Sayer for exactly the same reason. G&H is a valuable source, but much too dry for casual reading. Also, G&H was recently massively
            Message 5 of 18 , Nov 7, 2005
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              At 10:46 AM 11/7/2005 -0800, John D. Rateliff wrote:
              >Actually, of the three main biographies on CSL, I'd recommend starting with
              >the Green & Hooper. That's the authorized biography, and it does the best
              >job of discussing the main outlines of his life, works, and career. Although
              >now more than thirty years old, it's still not been superceded as a whole.
              >Then if you'd like to read more I'd read the Sayer next, since it's a warm
              >portrait by a friend, as much memoir as biography; it'll convey why Lewis's
              >friends thought so highly of him.

              I'd start with Sayer for exactly the same reason. G&H is a valuable
              source, but much too dry for casual reading. Also, G&H was recently
              massively rewritten and extended by H, and I haven't studied all the
              changes; nor are all editions that say "revised" actually the rewritten
              edition.

              >P.S.: "Never wrote another word" is White's garbled version of a comment by
              >Carpenter that, after his mauling by Anscombe, CSL stopped writing
              >straightforward apologetics for many years and, when he resumed, his
              >religious books were much more personal in tone (e.g., MIRACLES, THE PROBLEM
              >OF PAIN, MERE XIANITY vs. REFLECTIONS ON THE PSALMS and LETTERS TO MALCOLM:
              >CHIEFLY ON PRAYER).

              Thank you; that clarifies the point better than I did.

              David Bratman
            • Mike Foster
              I agree with David. Who better to tell the story of Lewis life than one who was taught then mentored and then befriended by him? Begin with Sayer. Mike ...
              Message 6 of 18 , Nov 7, 2005
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                I agree with David. Who better to tell the story of Lewis' life than
                one who was taught then mentored and then befriended by him? Begin with
                Sayer.

                Mike

                David Bratman wrote:

                >At 10:46 AM 11/7/2005 -0800, John D. Rateliff wrote:
                >
                >
                >>Actually, of the three main biographies on CSL, I'd recommend starting with
                >>the Green & Hooper. That's the authorized biography, and it does the best
                >>job of discussing the main outlines of his life, works, and career. Although
                >>now more than thirty years old, it's still not been superceded as a whole.
                >>Then if you'd like to read more I'd read the Sayer next, since it's a warm
                >>portrait by a friend, as much memoir as biography; it'll convey why Lewis's
                >>friends thought so highly of him.
                >>
                >>
                >
                >I'd start with Sayer for exactly the same reason. G&H is a valuable
                >source, but much too dry for casual reading. Also, G&H was recently
                >massively rewritten and extended by H, and I haven't studied all the
                >changes; nor are all editions that say "revised" actually the rewritten
                >edition.
                >
                >
                >
                >>P.S.: "Never wrote another word" is White's garbled version of a comment by
                >>Carpenter that, after his mauling by Anscombe, CSL stopped writing
                >>straightforward apologetics for many years and, when he resumed, his
                >>religious books were much more personal in tone (e.g., MIRACLES, THE PROBLEM
                >>OF PAIN, MERE XIANITY vs. REFLECTIONS ON THE PSALMS and LETTERS TO MALCOLM:
                >>CHIEFLY ON PRAYER).
                >>
                >>
                >
                >Thank you; that clarifies the point better than I did.
                >
                >David Bratman
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Mike Foster
                I finally read the White blurb since the chat about it had been so lively. I stopped counting at 5. Mike
                Message 7 of 18 , Nov 7, 2005
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                  I finally read the White blurb since the chat about it had been so lively.

                  I stopped counting at 5.

                  Mike

                  David Bratman wrote:

                  >Michael White, author of the most error-ridden book on Tolkien ever
                  >published, is now similarly hacking his way around C.S. Lewis.
                  >
                  ><http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2092-1859141,00.html>
                  >
                  >David Bratman
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Stolzi
                  Doug Gresham, who spoke at the opening banquet for PAST WATCHFUL DRAGONS, sold copies of his new (rather slight) book JACK S LIFE. I was aggravated to have
                  Message 8 of 18 , Nov 7, 2005
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                    Doug Gresham, who spoke at the opening banquet for PAST WATCHFUL DRAGONS,
                    sold copies of his new (rather slight) book JACK'S LIFE. I was aggravated
                    to have bought it bec it is obviously by
                    its style - and overtly in so many words, in the conclusion - a bio of Lewis
                    for children, yet it was marketed at this conference without ever a word or
                    hint to that effect.

                    Well, at least it was cheap; and it isn't too =bad=.

                    I did think he was rather riding a hobby horse in an excess number of
                    paragraphs about How Awful War Is. Sure, it is awful, and the two wars
                    surely had a large impact on CSL as well as his friends and family. But I
                    don't think Lewis himself would have wanted to dwell on the subject that
                    much, - stiff upper lip and all that. And it comes ill from a man like Doug
                    who as far as I know has never been in any war. In fact, this morning in
                    LETTERS v. 2, I was just reading some wartime snarky comments from Jack
                    about high-minded intellectual c.o.'s who have never, he says, been known to
                    be troubled by their consciences about anything before.

                    It would be great to influence all the children of the world forever against
                    war. If it could be ALL the children of the world. I don't see that
                    situation today.

                    Diamond Proudbrook
                  • Mike Foster
                    I concur with Diamond s assessment. The book needed a better copy editing job--typos as soon as p. 4--and danced over the difficult bits, but so did Colin
                    Message 9 of 18 , Nov 7, 2005
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                      I concur with Diamond's assessment. The book needed a better copy
                      editing job--typos as soon as p. 4--and danced over the difficult bits,
                      but so did Colin D.'s book on CSL & JRRT.

                      More later. A salmon calls.

                      Stolzi wrote:

                      > Doug Gresham, who spoke at the opening banquet for PAST WATCHFUL DRAGONS,
                      >sold copies of his new (rather slight) book JACK'S LIFE. I was aggravated
                      >to have bought it bec it is obviously by
                      >its style - and overtly in so many words, in the conclusion - a bio of Lewis
                      >for children, yet it was marketed at this conference without ever a word or
                      >hint to that effect.
                      >
                      >Well, at least it was cheap; and it isn't too =bad=.
                      >
                      >I did think he was rather riding a hobby horse in an excess number of
                      >paragraphs about How Awful War Is. Sure, it is awful, and the two wars
                      >surely had a large impact on CSL as well as his friends and family. But I
                      >don't think Lewis himself would have wanted to dwell on the subject that
                      >much, - stiff upper lip and all that. And it comes ill from a man like Doug
                      >who as far as I know has never been in any war. In fact, this morning in
                      >LETTERS v. 2, I was just reading some wartime snarky comments from Jack
                      >about high-minded intellectual c.o.'s who have never, he says, been known to
                      >be troubled by their consciences about anything before.
                      >
                      >It would be great to influence all the children of the world forever against
                      >war. If it could be ALL the children of the world. I don't see that
                      >situation today.
                      >
                      >Diamond Proudbrook
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                      >Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Hugh Davis
                      I had great hopes that _Jack s Life_ would feature more stories like the one Doug Gresham shared in the Q&A at Past Watchful Dragons (about the archer), but,
                      Message 10 of 18 , Nov 7, 2005
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                        I had great hopes that _Jack's Life_ would feature more stories like the one
                        Doug Gresham shared in the Q&A at Past Watchful Dragons (about the archer),
                        but, alas, the anecdotes are less salacious.

                        Hugh


                        >From: "Stolzi" <Stolzi@...>
                        >Reply-To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                        >To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                        >Subject: Re: [mythsoc] count the errors
                        >Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 16:23:18 -0600
                        >
                        > Doug Gresham, who spoke at the opening banquet for PAST WATCHFUL DRAGONS,
                        >sold copies of his new (rather slight) book JACK'S LIFE. I was aggravated
                        >to have bought it bec it is obviously by
                        >its style - and overtly in so many words, in the conclusion - a bio of
                        >Lewis
                        >for children, yet it was marketed at this conference without ever a word or
                        >hint to that effect.
                        >
                        >Well, at least it was cheap; and it isn't too =bad=.
                        >
                        >I did think he was rather riding a hobby horse in an excess number of
                        >paragraphs about How Awful War Is. Sure, it is awful, and the two wars
                        >surely had a large impact on CSL as well as his friends and family. But I
                        >don't think Lewis himself would have wanted to dwell on the subject that
                        >much, - stiff upper lip and all that. And it comes ill from a man like
                        >Doug
                        >who as far as I know has never been in any war. In fact, this morning in
                        >LETTERS v. 2, I was just reading some wartime snarky comments from Jack
                        >about high-minded intellectual c.o.'s who have never, he says, been known
                        >to
                        >be troubled by their consciences about anything before.
                        >
                        >It would be great to influence all the children of the world forever
                        >against
                        >war. If it could be ALL the children of the world. I don't see that
                        >situation today.
                        >
                        >Diamond Proudbrook
                        >
                        >
                      • Jay Hershberger
                        Thanks, Mike. Cheers, Jay Hershberger Moorhead, MN ... From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Foster Sent: Monday,
                        Message 11 of 18 , Nov 7, 2005
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                          Thanks, Mike.

                          Cheers,

                          Jay Hershberger
                          Moorhead, MN

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                          Of Mike Foster
                          Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 3:52 PM
                          To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [mythsoc] count the errors

                          I agree with David. Who better to tell the story of Lewis' life than
                          one who was taught then mentored and then befriended by him? Begin with

                          Sayer.

                          Mike

                          David Bratman wrote:

                          >At 10:46 AM 11/7/2005 -0800, John D. Rateliff wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >>Actually, of the three main biographies on CSL, I'd recommend starting
                          with
                          >>the Green & Hooper. That's the authorized biography, and it does the
                          best
                          >>job of discussing the main outlines of his life, works, and career.
                          Although
                          >>now more than thirty years old, it's still not been superceded as a
                          whole.
                          >>Then if you'd like to read more I'd read the Sayer next, since it's a
                          warm
                          >>portrait by a friend, as much memoir as biography; it'll convey why
                          Lewis's
                          >>friends thought so highly of him.
                          >>
                          >>
                          >
                          >I'd start with Sayer for exactly the same reason. G&H is a valuable
                          >source, but much too dry for casual reading. Also, G&H was recently
                          >massively rewritten and extended by H, and I haven't studied all the
                          >changes; nor are all editions that say "revised" actually the rewritten
                          >edition.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >>P.S.: "Never wrote another word" is White's garbled version of a
                          comment by
                          >>Carpenter that, after his mauling by Anscombe, CSL stopped writing
                          >>straightforward apologetics for many years and, when he resumed, his
                          >>religious books were much more personal in tone (e.g., MIRACLES, THE
                          PROBLEM
                          >>OF PAIN, MERE XIANITY vs. REFLECTIONS ON THE PSALMS and LETTERS TO
                          MALCOLM:
                          >>CHIEFLY ON PRAYER).
                          >>
                          >>
                          >
                          >Thank you; that clarifies the point better than I did.
                          >
                          >David Bratman
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                          >Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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                          riting+a+book&w3=Writing+child+book&w4=Book+writing+software&w5=Science+
                          fiction+and+fantasy&w6=Writing+a+book+report&c=6&s=149&.sig=lO3Ub95nJOYx
                          hLh9xKmaZA> a book
                          Writing
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Writing+child+book&w1=Writing+book&
                          w2=Writing+a+book&w3=Writing+child+book&w4=Book+writing+software&w5=Scie
                          nce+fiction+and+fantasy&w6=Writing+a+book+report&c=6&s=149&.sig=SdauVgsy
                          Q7cty1c0_Mdmcw> child book

                          Book
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Book+writing+software&w1=Writing+bo
                          ok&w2=Writing+a+book&w3=Writing+child+book&w4=Book+writing+software&w5=S
                          cience+fiction+and+fantasy&w6=Writing+a+book+report&c=6&s=149&.sig=IyTXz
                          OVz9wcG0elM8KQAlA> writing software
                          Science
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Science+fiction+and+fantasy&w1=Writ
                          ing+book&w2=Writing+a+book&w3=Writing+child+book&w4=Book+writing+softwar
                          e&w5=Science+fiction+and+fantasy&w6=Writing+a+book+report&c=6&s=149&.sig
                          =XRnFz_kSPtPnWY1VFwJpwQ> fiction and fantasy
                          Writing
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Writing+a+book+report&w1=Writing+bo
                          ok&w2=Writing+a+book&w3=Writing+child+book&w4=Book+writing+software&w5=S
                          cience+fiction+and+fantasy&w6=Writing+a+book+report&c=6&s=149&.sig=v6l7b
                          RwIsnHwqukmL3bvDQ> a book report

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