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Re: [mythsoc] "When Tolkien got precious with Lewis"

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  • Mike Foster
    Thanks, Carl. I think we sense that tension in the letters of both, in Carpenter s biographies, remarks George Sayer made &c. And I agree as a recovering
    Message 1 of 13 , Sep 25, 2005
      Thanks, Carl.

      I think we sense that tension in the letters of both, in Carpenter's
      biographies, remarks George Sayer made &c.

      And I agree as a recovering journalism professor--one howler error makes
      us doubt the whole thing.

      Anyone who has ever had a difficult but great good friend will understand.

      Btw, how does one say 'A Fine Kettle of Fish' in Quenya and Sindarin? :-)

      Cheers,
      Mike

      Carl F. Hostetter wrote:

      >"When Tolkien got precious with Lewis"
      >
      ><http://news.scotsman.com/entertainment.cfm?id=1990652005>
      >
      >"... new research has revealed that their friendship was riven by the
      >most bitter and personal of rows on everything from literature to
      >religion and even their choice of spouse.
      >The fascinating revelations about their real relationship have been
      >made by film-maker Norman Stone while researching a new drama-
      >documentary on the life of Lewis. Stone, who made the award-winning
      >movie about Lewis, Shadowlands, talked to mutual friends of the
      >literary pair as well as examining documents in minute detail."
      >
      >
      >
      >This bit does not inspire confidence, though:
      >
      >"Lewis met and married Joy Gresham, an American widow"
      >
      >Joy was a divorcee, not a widow, at the time Lewis married her. Which
      >is a very strange element to get wrong in an article on the strains
      >between (Protestant) Lewis and (devout Roman Catholic) Tolkien.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
      >Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Mike Foster
      Dear Carl & colleagues, I just read the piece & if I am not mistaken, the needs a smack or two remark came not from a 1950? argument but from CSL s first
      Message 2 of 13 , Sep 25, 2005
        Dear Carl & colleagues,
        I just read the piece & if I am not mistaken,
        the 'needs a smack or two'
        remark
        came not from a 1950? argument but from CSL's first journal noting of
        first meeting with JRRT.

        If I am mistaken, hardly the first time!

        Cheers,
        Mike

        Mike Foster wrote:

        >Thanks, Carl.
        >
        >I think we sense that tension in the letters of both, in Carpenter's
        >biographies, remarks George Sayer made &c.
        >
        >And I agree as a recovering journalism professor--one howler error makes
        >us doubt the whole thing.
        >
        >Anyone who has ever had a difficult but great good friend will understand.
        >
        >Btw, how does one say 'A Fine Kettle of Fish' in Quenya and Sindarin? :-)
        >
        >Cheers,
        >Mike
        >
        >Carl F. Hostetter wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        >>"When Tolkien got precious with Lewis"
        >>
        >><http://news.scotsman.com/entertainment.cfm?id=1990652005>
        >>
        >>"... new research has revealed that their friendship was riven by the
        >>most bitter and personal of rows on everything from literature to
        >>religion and even their choice of spouse.
        >>The fascinating revelations about their real relationship have been
        >>made by film-maker Norman Stone while researching a new drama-
        >>documentary on the life of Lewis. Stone, who made the award-winning
        >>movie about Lewis, Shadowlands, talked to mutual friends of the
        >>literary pair as well as examining documents in minute detail."
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>This bit does not inspire confidence, though:
        >>
        >>"Lewis met and married Joy Gresham, an American widow"
        >>
        >>Joy was a divorcee, not a widow, at the time Lewis married her. Which
        >>is a very strange element to get wrong in an article on the strains
        >>between (Protestant) Lewis and (devout Roman Catholic) Tolkien.
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
        >>Yahoo! Groups Links
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Cai Cherie
        Gee-- do you think Lewis and Tolkein were two full-blooded, strong-minded induviduals who stimulated and nurtured each other because they were alike ... but
        Message 3 of 13 , Sep 26, 2005
          Gee-- do you think Lewis and Tolkein were two full-blooded, strong-minded induviduals who stimulated and nurtured each other because they were alike ... but also different? Close, passionate friendships that make a difference in one's life are rarely (never?) founded on total agreement on everything.



          Some folks are unwise enough to try and turn Tolkein and Lewis into plaster saints. And then others follow, thinking it amazing to reveal that no, they -weren't- plaster saints after all. Well whip me with a wet noodle. They were muddled-up men making the best of an often rum situation. If you can't love and/or admire them for that, well, then you're even more muddled up than they were.



          Cai


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        • Carl F. Hostetter
          I m not sure who this Tolkein fellow is, or exactly to what or to whom Cai s post is intended as a response, since the article linked to certainly doesn t
          Message 4 of 13 , Sep 26, 2005
            I'm not sure who this "Tolkein" fellow is, or exactly to what or to
            whom Cai's post is intended as a response, since the article linked
            to certainly doesn't argue that friendships depend on "total
            agreement on everything", or that Lewis and Tolkien were "saints" (of
            any medium or variety), or even present the fact that Lewis and
            Tolkien had disagreements and a serious strain in their friendship
            (if not break) as a novelty. What appears to be novel about it, and
            thus what makes it noteworthy, is that some (apparently) new details
            underlying this strain based on (apparently) new research and
            interviews are claimed.


            On Sep 26, 2005, at 11:58 AM, Cai Cherie wrote:

            > Gee-- do you think Lewis and Tolkein were two full-blooded, strong-
            > minded induviduals who stimulated and nurtured each other because
            > they were alike ... but also different? Close, passionate
            > friendships that make a difference in one's life are rarely
            > (never?) founded on total agreement on everything.
            >
            > Some folks are unwise enough to try and turn Tolkein and Lewis into
            > plaster saints. And then others follow, thinking it amazing to
            > reveal that no, they -weren't- plaster saints after all. Well whip
            > me with a wet noodle. They were muddled-up men making the best of
            > an often rum situation. If you can't love and/or admire them for
            > that, well, then you're even more muddled up than they were.
            >
            > Cai
          • Peter Goselin
            I have been lurking on this list for a while now, but the topic just happened to coincide with what I was reading anyway . . . so even though I am here at my
            Message 5 of 13 , Sep 26, 2005
              I have been lurking on this list for a while now, but the topic just
              happened to coincide with what I was reading anyway . . . so even though
              I am here at my desk at work and my reading material is at home on the
              table I'll rush in with my two cents.

              I notice that in Tolkien's Letters he refers in very loving (though not
              always uncritical) terms to Lewis up until the 1950's, and then the
              references diminish and stop until Lewis's death. At that point there
              are several letters responding to inquiries from family and friends
              about Lewis. Tolkien makes reference to Lewis not telling him of his
              marriage and acknowledges that they had become distant from each other.
              Even so, it seems clear that he regarded Lewis as a friend and
              intimate. Interestingly, there is no mention of his disapproval of
              Lewis' marriage. Though there are certainly lengthy letters in which
              Tolkien expounds on his rather conservative views on Catholic doctrine,
              I can't think of any instance in his letters where he criticized someone
              because they had failed to live up to those views.

              There did seem to be a hint in one letter that Charles Williams had
              somehow "come between" Tolkien and Lewis. Again, it seemed to be more
              indicative of the two of them being not in particularly close
              communication, rather than suggesting a genuine split, but I wonder if
              anyone more well read has more insight.

              Peter Goselin


              Cai Cherie wrote:

              >
              >
              > Gee-- do you think Lewis and Tolkein were two full-blooded,
              > strong-minded induviduals who stimulated and nurtured each other
              > because they were alike ... but also different? Close, passionate
              > friendships that make a difference in one's life are rarely (never?)
              > founded on total agreement on everything.
              >
              >
              >
              > Some folks are unwise enough to try and turn Tolkein and Lewis into
              > plaster saints. And then others follow, thinking it amazing to reveal
              > that no, they -weren't- plaster saints after all. Well whip me with a
              > wet noodle. They were muddled-up men making the best of an often rum
              > situation. If you can't love and/or admire them for that, well, then
              > you're even more muddled up than they were.
              >
              >
              >
              > Cai
              >
              >
              > __________________________________________________
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              > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
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              >
              >
              >
              > SPONSORED LINKS
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              > Science fiction and fantasy
              > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Science+fiction+and+fantasy&w1=Writing+book&w2=Writing+a+book&w3=Writing+child+book&w4=Book+writing+software&w5=Science+fiction+and+fantasy&w6=Writing+a+book+report&c=6&s=149&.sig=XRnFz_kSPtPnWY1VFwJpwQ>
              > Writing a book report
              > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Writing+a+book+report&w1=Writing+book&w2=Writing+a+book&w3=Writing+child+book&w4=Book+writing+software&w5=Science+fiction+and+fantasy&w6=Writing+a+book+report&c=6&s=149&.sig=v6l7bRwIsnHwqukmL3bvDQ>
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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Mike Foster
              Cai & Co., Well, yes! Maybe the best friends are often the sometimes difficult ones. I know my best little buddy at college career was. A fretful porpentine
              Message 6 of 13 , Sep 26, 2005
                Cai & Co.,
                Well, yes! Maybe the best friends are often the sometimes difficult
                ones. I know my best little buddy at college career was. A fretful
                porpentine who wd. weep with compassion for loss of my mom only months
                after we nearly went at it with fists and feet on the way in to teach a
                Hum. class together.

                Or let Lewis have the last word:

                [1] C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain (New York: Simon & Schuster, 1996),
                131. "Are not all lifelong friendships born at the moment when at last
                you meet another human being who has some inkling (but faint and
                uncertain in the best) of that something which you were born desiring,
                and which, beneath the flux of other desires and in all the momentary
                silences between the louder passions, night and day, year by year, from
                childhood to old age, you are looking for, watching for, listening for?

                You have never had it. All the things that have ever deeply possessed
                your soul have been but hints of it--tantalizing glimpses, promises
                never quite fulfilled, echoes that died away just as they caught your
                ear. But if it ever should become manifest--if there ever came an echo
                that did not die away but welled into the sound itself--you would know
                it. Beyond all possibility of doubt you would say, 'Here at last is the
                thing I was made for'."

                ~Mike



                Cai Cherie wrote:

                >Gee-- do you think Lewis and Tolkein were two full-blooded, strong-minded induviduals who stimulated and nurtured each other because they were alike ... but also different? Close, passionate friendships that make a difference in one's life are rarely (never?) founded on total agreement on everything.
                >
                >
                >
                >Some folks are unwise enough to try and turn Tolkein and Lewis into plaster saints. And then others follow, thinking it amazing to reveal that no, they -weren't- plaster saints after all. Well whip me with a wet noodle. They were muddled-up men making the best of an often rum situation. If you can't love and/or admire them for that, well, then you're even more muddled up than they were.
                >
                >
                >
                >Cai
                >
                >
                >__________________________________________________
                >Do You Yahoo!?
                >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                >http://mail.yahoo.com
                >
                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Mike Foster
                Wise woman you are, Lynnsky. I thought of Chad Stuart & Jeremy Clyde s two great hits from my graduate-off-to-Marquette summer of 64, Yesterday s Gone & A
                Message 7 of 13 , Sep 26, 2005
                  Wise woman you are, Lynnsky.

                  I thought of Chad Stuart & Jeremy Clyde's two great hits from my
                  graduate-off-to-Marquette summer
                  of '64,
                  "Yesterday's Gone" & "A Summer Song."
                  All about the seasons of affection.

                  Cheers,
                  Mike

                  maudlinlynn@... wrote:

                  >You will ALL enjoy Diana (Glyer's) upcoming book on the Lewis & Tolkien (and other Inklings) relationship - looking at the purpose and value of community and "influence" in creativity - very stimulating stuff (why, just look at the influence of THIS community of eletter hacks!)
                  >
                  >I wish we were a little better at remembering that friendships have *seasons* - and sometimes in the dead of winter it's hard to remember just how HOT the summer actually was! We also have this current American fixation with things needing to be "nice" all the time - and these guys were REAL. We should be so real, you know?!
                  >smooches (REALLY!!!)
                  > -- Lynnsky --
                  >
                  >-----Original Message-----
                  >From: Mike Foster <mafoster@...>
                  >Sent: Sep 25, 2005 7:10 PM
                  >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, Lynn Maudlin <maudlinlynn@...>,
                  > Amy Sturgis <ahsturgis@...>,
                  > adam schwartz <ajmschwartz@...>,
                  > Jo Foster <jfoster@...>,
                  > Dave & Paula Hoose <hoosedp@...>
                  >Subject: Re: [mythsoc] "When Tolkien got precious with Lewis"
                  >
                  >Thanks, Carl.
                  >
                  >I think we sense that tension in the letters of both, in Carpenter's
                  >biographies, remarks George Sayer made &c.
                  >
                  >And I agree as a recovering journalism professor--one howler error makes
                  >us doubt the whole thing.
                  >
                  >Anyone who has ever had a difficult but great good friend will understand.
                  >
                  >Btw, how does one say 'A Fine Kettle of Fish' in Quenya and Sindarin? :-)
                  >
                  >Cheers,
                  >Mike
                  >
                  >Carl F. Hostetter wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >>"When Tolkien got precious with Lewis"
                  >>
                  >><http://news.scotsman.com/entertainment.cfm?id=1990652005>
                  >>
                  >>"... new research has revealed that their friendship was riven by the
                  >>most bitter and personal of rows on everything from literature to
                  >>religion and even their choice of spouse.
                  >>The fascinating revelations about their real relationship have been
                  >>made by film-maker Norman Stone while researching a new drama-
                  >>documentary on the life of Lewis. Stone, who made the award-winning
                  >>movie about Lewis, Shadowlands, talked to mutual friends of the
                  >>literary pair as well as examining documents in minute detail."
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>This bit does not inspire confidence, though:
                  >>
                  >>"Lewis met and married Joy Gresham, an American widow"
                  >>
                  >>Joy was a divorcee, not a widow, at the time Lewis married her. Which
                  >>is a very strange element to get wrong in an article on the strains
                  >>between (Protestant) Lewis and (devout Roman Catholic) Tolkien.
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                  >>Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Mike Foster
                  Peter, I don t know if they are reading this but David Bratman & Richard C. West cd. certainly speak to Williams. But it does seem to ring true. There s more
                  Message 8 of 13 , Sep 26, 2005
                    Peter,
                    I don't know if they are reading this but David Bratman & Richard C.
                    West cd. certainly speak to Williams. But it does seem to ring true.
                    There's more to it than that. George Sayer is the best published so far
                    on this. When will Diana P-G's book be published, Lynn?

                    Mike

                    Peter Goselin wrote:

                    >I have been lurking on this list for a while now, but the topic just
                    >happened to coincide with what I was reading anyway . . . so even though
                    >I am here at my desk at work and my reading material is at home on the
                    >table I'll rush in with my two cents.
                    >
                    >I notice that in Tolkien's Letters he refers in very loving (though not
                    >always uncritical) terms to Lewis up until the 1950's, and then the
                    >references diminish and stop until Lewis's death. At that point there
                    >are several letters responding to inquiries from family and friends
                    >about Lewis. Tolkien makes reference to Lewis not telling him of his
                    >marriage and acknowledges that they had become distant from each other.
                    >Even so, it seems clear that he regarded Lewis as a friend and
                    >intimate. Interestingly, there is no mention of his disapproval of
                    >Lewis' marriage. Though there are certainly lengthy letters in which
                    >Tolkien expounds on his rather conservative views on Catholic doctrine,
                    >I can't think of any instance in his letters where he criticized someone
                    >because they had failed to live up to those views.
                    >
                    >There did seem to be a hint in one letter that Charles Williams had
                    >somehow "come between" Tolkien and Lewis. Again, it seemed to be more
                    >indicative of the two of them being not in particularly close
                    >communication, rather than suggesting a genuine split, but I wonder if
                    >anyone more well read has more insight.
                    >
                    >Peter Goselin
                    >
                    >
                    >Cai Cherie wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >>Gee-- do you think Lewis and Tolkein were two full-blooded,
                    >>strong-minded induviduals who stimulated and nurtured each other
                    >>because they were alike ... but also different? Close, passionate
                    >>friendships that make a difference in one's life are rarely (never?)
                    >>founded on total agreement on everything.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>Some folks are unwise enough to try and turn Tolkein and Lewis into
                    >>plaster saints. And then others follow, thinking it amazing to reveal
                    >>that no, they -weren't- plaster saints after all. Well whip me with a
                    >>wet noodle. They were muddled-up men making the best of an often rum
                    >>situation. If you can't love and/or admire them for that, well, then
                    >>you're even more muddled up than they were.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>Cai
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>__________________________________________________
                    >>Do You Yahoo!?
                    >>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                    >>http://mail.yahoo.com
                    >>
                    >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>SPONSORED LINKS
                    >>Writing book
                    >><http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Writing+book&w1=Writing+book&w2=Writing+a+book&w3=Writing+child+book&w4=Book+writing+software&w5=Science+fiction+and+fantasy&w6=Writing+a+book+report&c=6&s=149&.sig=y2eg6vElueLyccicIbmLvw>
                    >> Writing a book
                    >><http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Writing+a+book&w1=Writing+book&w2=Writing+a+book&w3=Writing+child+book&w4=Book+writing+software&w5=Science+fiction+and+fantasy&w6=Writing+a+book+report&c=6&s=149&.sig=lO3Ub95nJOYxhLh9xKmaZA>
                    >> Writing child book
                    >><http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Writing+child+book&w1=Writing+book&w2=Writing+a+book&w3=Writing+child+book&w4=Book+writing+software&w5=Science+fiction+and+fantasy&w6=Writing+a+book+report&c=6&s=149&.sig=SdauVgsyQ7cty1c0_Mdmcw>
                    >>
                    >>Book writing software
                    >><http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Book+writing+software&w1=Writing+book&w2=Writing+a+book&w3=Writing+child+book&w4=Book+writing+software&w5=Science+fiction+and+fantasy&w6=Writing+a+book+report&c=6&s=149&.sig=IyTXzOVz9wcG0elM8KQAlA>
                    >> Science fiction and fantasy
                    >><http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Science+fiction+and+fantasy&w1=Writing+book&w2=Writing+a+book&w3=Writing+child+book&w4=Book+writing+software&w5=Science+fiction+and+fantasy&w6=Writing+a+book+report&c=6&s=149&.sig=XRnFz_kSPtPnWY1VFwJpwQ>
                    >> Writing a book report
                    >><http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Writing+a+book+report&w1=Writing+book&w2=Writing+a+book&w3=Writing+child+book&w4=Book+writing+software&w5=Science+fiction+and+fantasy&w6=Writing+a+book+report&c=6&s=149&.sig=v6l7bRwIsnHwqukmL3bvDQ>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
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                    >
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                    >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                    >Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Carl F. Hostetter
                    ... They CAN?! Wow! Do they perform a séance, or use a ouija board, or what? ;)
                    Message 9 of 13 , Sep 26, 2005
                      On Sep 26, 2005, at 12:45 PM, Mike Foster wrote:

                      > I don't know if they are reading this but David Bratman & Richard
                      > C. West cd. certainly speak to Williams.

                      They CAN?! Wow! Do they perform a séance, or use a ouija board, or what?

                      ;)
                    • Mike Foster
                      Gee, dunno about Richard and DB can speak for hisself but from what he s said I assumed it was a mix of ouija and seance and the table kinda moving up and
                      Message 10 of 13 , Sep 26, 2005
                        Gee, dunno about Richard and DB can speak for
                        hisself but from what he's said I assumed it was a mix of ouija and
                        seance and the table kinda moving up and rising into the air...

                        =-O

                        Carl F. Hostetter wrote:

                        >On Sep 26, 2005, at 12:45 PM, Mike Foster wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >>I don't know if they are reading this but David Bratman & Richard
                        >>C. West cd. certainly speak to Williams.
                        >>
                        >>
                        >
                        >They CAN?! Wow! Do they perform a séance, or use a ouija board, or what?
                        >
                        >;)
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                        >Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • WendellWag@aol.com
                        In a message dated 9/26/2005 12:33:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, pdgoselin@lapm.org writes: There did seem to be a hint in one letter that Charles Williams
                        Message 11 of 13 , Sep 26, 2005
                          In a message dated 9/26/2005 12:33:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                          pdgoselin@... writes:

                          There did seem to be a hint in one letter that Charles Williams had
                          somehow "come between" Tolkien and Lewis.


                          One of the interesting papers at Tolkien 2005 in Birmingham (which included
                          Mythcon this year) was by Eric Rauscher. He looked at the claim that Tolkien
                          and Williams didn't get along that well and that they didn't have much in
                          common. The claim also usually says that the only reason they ever hung out
                          together was because they both knew Lewis. Eric argued that this was wrong.
                          It's clear if you look at letters and diaries from the time that the two knew
                          each other (up till Williams's death in 1945) that this isn't true. A couple
                          of decades later, when Tolkien was interviewed in the late 1960's and early
                          1970's, he sometimes spoke as if he never got along with Williams that well
                          and didn't have much in common with him, but that appears to be him re-writing
                          history. Tolkien just didn't like interviewers trying to prove that the
                          Inklings were responsible for everything in his books.

                          Wendell Wagner


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Mike Foster
                          Thanks, Wendell, for sharing this observation of Eriv s paperwh, I agree was one of 43 or so highlights at Aston. Mike ... It was the witchcraft interest of
                          Message 12 of 13 , Sep 26, 2005
                            Thanks, Wendell, for sharing this observation of Eriv's paperwh, I agree
                            was one of 43 or so highlights at Aston.

                            Mike

                            WendellWag@... wrote:

                            >
                            >In a message dated 9/26/2005 12:33:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                            >pdgoselin@... writes:
                            >
                            >There did seem to be a hint in one letter that Charles Williams had
                            >somehow "come between" Tolkien and Lewis.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            It was
                            the witchcraft interest of CW, aina?

                            >One of the interesting papers at Tolkien 2005 in Birmingham (which included
                            >Mythcon this year) was by Eric Rauscher. He looked at the claim that Tolkien
                            >and Williams didn't get along that well and that they didn't have much in
                            >common. The claim also usually says that the only reason they ever hung out
                            >together was because they both knew Lewis. Eric argued that this was wrong.
                            >It's clear if you look at letters and diaries from the time that the two knew
                            >each other (up till Williams's death in 1945) that this isn't true. A couple
                            >of decades later, when Tolkien was interviewed in the late 1960's and early
                            >1970's, he sometimes spoke as if he never got along with Williams that well
                            >and didn't have much in common with him, but that appears to be him re-writing
                            >history. Tolkien just didn't like interviewers trying to prove that the
                            >Inklings were responsible for everything in his books.
                            >
                            Again, it was the best paper Eric's done in my earshot, and kudos to him.

                            Mike

                            >
                            >Wendell Wagner
                            >
                            >
                            >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                            >Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
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