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The Choices of Master Samwise (was Re: [mythsoc] O.W.L.'s in Harry Potter (spoiler at end))

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  • Carl F. Hostetter
    ... But the whole of Grace s point follows from the _fact_ that Sam _didn t_ realize this, either when he made his initial decision (obviously) or when he
    Message 1 of 71 , Aug 2, 2005
      On Aug 2, 2005, at 8:05 PM, David Bratman wrote:

      > If he'd realized Frodo were alive, he would have moved him.

      But the whole of Grace's point follows from the _fact_ that Sam
      _didn't_ realize this, either when he made his initial decision
      (obviously) or when he first came to regret that decision -- which he
      did only because, as he says, he decided that he could not be the
      Ringbearer _no matter what the consquence_, _not_ because he decided
      that there was some other way to preserve the Quest. There is _no
      indication whatsoever_ that, thinking Frodo dead, he intended to go
      back and carry Frodo anywhere at all. It seems quite clear to me
      that, when he decides to go back after all, he does so with the
      intention of sitting with Frodo and waiting for what he regards as
      the inevitable failure of the Quest, and the consequent ruin of
      Middle-earth, as the very quote you provide indicates:

      > "I wonder if any song will ever mention it: How Samwise fell in the
      > High Pass and made a wall of bodies round his master. No, no
      > song. Of course not, for the Ring'll be found, and there'll be no
      > more songs."

      It further seems quite clear to me, as to Grace, that in the end Sam
      made exactly the right set of decisions, _but only despite himself_,
      and only because of Providence: first, to take the Ring and go on, so
      that it would not fall into the hands of the Orcs (and then Sauron);
      and second, though even he did not realize it at the time, to go back
      to Frodo, initially with the intention only of being with Frodo
      despite the fact that it would mean the failure of the Quest and the
      ruin of Middle-earth (so far as he or anyone else could reasonably
      foresee), but then purely Providentially because by having left with
      the Ring initially, he -- unlike Frodo -- avoided capture, and thus
      preserved the Ring, but then was able to avoid detection long enough
      to reunite the Ring with Frodo.

      I would also like to point out, David, that your question to Grace:

      > Didn't you read the rest of the chapter?

      was belittling, hostile, and completely uncalled-for. Do you really
      believe that Grace _didn't_ read the rest of the chapter? If not,
      then knowing that she _obviously_ did, do you really think that it is
      impossible to have a reading of that chapter that differs from yours,
      and still be informed and in earnest?

      It's odd to me how only certain viewpoints from certain people elicit
      any moderatorial response on this list, while other clearly hostile
      rhetoric and comments like this go unremarked. And I know that I am
      not the only one to feel so....
    • Larry Swain
      ONe tidbit I didn t see mentioned in the various takes on the theory: at the end Harry rather considers getting Snape as a possible by-product, but isn t
      Message 71 of 71 , Aug 14, 2005
        ONe tidbit I didn't see mentioned in the various takes on the theory: at the end Harry rather considers "getting Snape" as a possible by-product, but isn't overly concerned with Snape or Malfoy. One could counter that he is focused on Voldemort, but I'm not sure I buy that as just putting Snape out of mind.

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