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Re: [mythsoc] Digest Number 1941

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  • Mary Kay
    ... I don t suppose they d appreciate a paper on Elric as the Sulky Teen-Age Angst Incarnation of the Immortal Hero, huh? ... Not denial of permission, no, but
    Message 1 of 10 , Jun 30, 2005
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      mythsoc@yahoogroups.com wrote:
      >
      > Message: 1
      > Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 07:57:08 -0500
      > From: "Croft, Janet B." <jbcroft@...>
      > Subject: FW: Michael Moorcock's Multiverse (no deadline; collection)
      >
      > A collection some of you might be interested in.
      >
      >
      > CFP: Exploring the Multiverse: A Study of the Works of Michael Moorcock
      > (Collection). Editor: Thomas Fortenberry.
      >
      > Submissions are invited for a new collection of essays studying the
      > writings of British author Michael Moorcock.
      >
      > For instance, there is an entire gaming universe and fiction subgenre of
      > fantasy based around his doomed albino prince Elric of Melnibone and his
      > giant, sentinent, magical, black rune-covered sword, along with

      I don't suppose they'd appreciate a paper on Elric as the Sulky Teen-Age
      Angst Incarnation of the Immortal Hero, huh?
      >________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________


      > Message: 5
      > Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:33:40 -0400
      > From: "Carl F. Hostetter" <Aelfwine@...>
      > Subject: Re: Fan fiction
      >
      >
      > On Jun 30, 2005, at 11:55 AM, lezlie1@... wrote:
      >
      >>>
      >>
      >>Interesting... I had been under the impression Tolkien's estate
      >>were very
      >>much involved in controlling his work. Colleagues were very
      >>surprised to
      >>find the permissions not so easy when writing for academia.
      >
      >
      > I have seen this claimed numerous times, but I have yet to see a
      > citation of even one actual instance of refusal. Do you know of one?

      Not denial of permission, no, but some friends of mine did a tape of
      music based on Bradley's settings of some of Tolkien's poetry. And it
      took, literally, years to get permission from the Estate and it came
      hedged with all sorts of stipulations and conditions like taking out the
      chorus that had been added to the Cat & Fiddle Song, only x number of
      tapes allowed, and tapes only, no cds. It was later republished as a cd
      but that took years of negotiations again. And it was definitely the
      Estate, not the publishers.
      ____________________________________________________________________
      _____________________________________________________________________
    • Carl F. Hostetter
      ... I m familiar with the case (they re friends of mine too!) One has to remember that the Tolkien Estate was _created_ by Tolkien for the purpose of
      Message 2 of 10 , Jun 30, 2005
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        On Jun 30, 2005, at 9:26 PM, Mary Kay wrote:

        > some friends of mine did a tape of music based on Bradley's
        > settings of some of Tolkien's poetry. And it took, literally,
        > years to get permission from the Estate and it came hedged with all
        > sorts of stipulations and conditions like taking out the chorus
        > that had been added to the Cat & Fiddle Song, only x number of
        > tapes allowed, and tapes only, no cds. It was later republished as
        > a cd but that took years of negotiations again. And it was
        > definitely the Estate, not the publishers.

        I'm familiar with the case (they're friends of mine too!)

        One has to remember that the Tolkien Estate was _created_ by Tolkien
        for the purpose of protecting (_inter alia_) his literary legacy. The
        exercise of that fiduciary responsibility (and so it is: it's not as
        though the agents of the Estate have no _responsibilities_; in fact,
        they work VERY hard in their duties) entails ensuring that the Estate
        upholds the integrity of Tolkien's work and its usage(s). And given
        the very high quality of the results in this particular case --
        really among the very best musical settings of Tolkien's poems I'm
        aware of -- I'd say they fulfilled their duties admirably.

        As for the limitation on the number of copies: well, let's remember
        that, unlike the issue of _academic_ use with which this discussion
        specifically started, this particular project was a) non-academic and
        b) commercial. (I'm guessing, though I don't know for sure since I
        never asked the band members, that the Estate didn't charge any
        licensing fees or royalties on the project?)




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Croft, Janet B.
        MKK: I don t suppose they d appreciate a paper on Elric as the Sulky Teen-Age Angst Incarnation of the Immortal Hero, huh? Why not? It s a valid subgenre of
        Message 3 of 10 , Jul 1, 2005
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          MKK: I don't suppose they'd appreciate a paper on Elric as the Sulky
          Teen-Age Angst Incarnation of the Immortal Hero, huh?

          Why not? It's a valid subgenre of the Immortal Hero. Must be some
          others out there who either influenced or were influenced by him, or
          present a good example for comparison. Heck, look how sulky Harry
          Potter got in the last book -- no big black sword, but plenty of angst!

          Janet
        • Walkermonk@aol.com
          In a message dated 7/1/2005 8:09:10 AM Central Daylight Time, jbcroft@ou.edu writes: MKK: I don t suppose they d appreciate a paper on Elric as the Sulky
          Message 4 of 10 , Jul 1, 2005
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            In a message dated 7/1/2005 8:09:10 AM Central Daylight Time, jbcroft@...
            writes:
            MKK: I don't suppose they'd appreciate a paper on Elric as the Sulky
            Teen-Age Angst Incarnation of the Immortal Hero, huh?

            Why not? It's a valid subgenre of the Immortal Hero. Must be some
            others out there who either influenced or were influenced by him, or
            present a good example for comparison. Heck, look how sulky Harry
            Potter got in the last book -- no big black sword, but plenty of angst!

            Janet
            ---

            Neil Gaiman has a really interesting (at least, I thought it was interesting)
            short story about the influence of Moorcock on his own work.

            Grace Monk


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • lezlie1@znet.com
            ... LOL! I would love to read it-- generally what I thought of him, and never read another! (also the gratuitious violence-- not my cuppa...) Lezlie ... --
            Message 5 of 10 , Jul 1, 2005
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              Quoting Walkermonk@...:


              > In a message dated 7/1/2005 8:09:10 AM Central Daylight Time,
              > jbcroft@...
              >
              > writes:
              >
              > MKK: I don't suppose they'd appreciate a paper on Elric as the Sulky
              >
              > Teen-Age Angst Incarnation of the Immortal Hero, huh?

              LOL! I would love to read it-- generally what I thought of him, and never
              read another! (also the gratuitious violence-- not my cuppa...) Lezlie





              >
              >
              >
              > Why not? It's a valid subgenre of the Immortal Hero. Must be some
              >
              > others out there who either influenced or were influenced by him, or
              >
              > present a good example for comparison. Heck, look how sulky Harry
              >
              > Potter got in the last book -- no big black sword, but plenty of angst!
              >
              >
              >
              > Janet
              >
              > ---
              >
              >
              >
              > Neil Gaiman has a really interesting (at least, I thought it was
              > interesting)
              >
              > short story about the influence of Moorcock on his own work.
              >
              >
              >
              > Grace Monk
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Visit your group "mythsoc" on the web.
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > mythsoc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
              >
              >
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              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >


              --
              ____________________________________________________________________________

              "...it concerns three men who are about to be executed. The prison governor
              calls them to his office, and explains that each will be granted a last
              request. The first one confesses that he has led a sinful life, and would
              like to see a priest. The governor says he thinks he can arrange that. And
              the second man? The second man explains that he is a professor of
              cybernetics. His last request is to deliver a final and definitive answer to
              the question: what is cybernetics? The governor accedes to this request
              also. And the third man? Well, he is a doctoral student of the professor --
              his request is to be executed second."Joke Related by Stafford Beer
              October 2001
            • lezlie1@znet.com
              Was that Brocceliande? (SP?) ( Starlit Jewel ) they did a terrific job-- heard a concert a while ago in a local venue. Their journey to the CD is somewhat
              Message 6 of 10 , Jul 1, 2005
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                Was that Brocceliande? (SP?) ("Starlit Jewel") they did a terrific job--
                heard a concert a while ago in a local venue. Their "journey" to the CD is
                somewhat legendary amongst the folkies here abouts.

                The thing is, I still like the Swann/Tolkien collaboration better & have
                been trying to find a copy of my very own for years and years. I found a
                book with written music at the local PB, but no luck finding a recording--
                yet!

                Lezlie

                Quoting "Carl F. Hostetter" <Aelfwine@...>:

                > On Jun 30, 2005, at 9:26 PM, Mary Kay wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > > some friends of mine did a tape of music based on Bradley's
                >
                > > settings of some of Tolkien's poetry. And it took, literally,
                >
                > > years to get permission from the Estate and it came hedged with all
                >
                > > sorts of stipulations and conditions like taking out the chorus
                >
                > > that had been added to the Cat & Fiddle Song, only x number of
                >
                > > tapes allowed, and tapes only, no cds. It was later republished as
                >
                > > a cd but that took years of negotiations again. And it was
                >
                > > definitely the Estate, not the publishers.
                >
                >
                >
                > I'm familiar with the case (they're friends of mine too!)
                >
                >
                >
                > One has to remember that the Tolkien Estate was _created_ by Tolkien
                >
                > for the purpose of protecting (_inter alia_) his literary legacy. The
                >
                > exercise of that fiduciary responsibility (and so it is: it's not as
                >
                > though the agents of the Estate have no _responsibilities_; in fact,
                >
                > they work VERY hard in their duties) entails ensuring that the Estate
                >
                > upholds the integrity of Tolkien's work and its usage(s). And given
                >
                > the very high quality of the results in this particular case --
                >
                > really among the very best musical settings of Tolkien's poems I'm
                >
                > aware of -- I'd say they fulfilled their duties admirably.
                >
                >
                >
                > As for the limitation on the number of copies: well, let's remember
                >
                > that, unlike the issue of _academic_ use with which this discussion
                >
                > specifically started, this particular project was a) non-academic and
                >
                > b) commercial. (I'm guessing, though I don't know for sure since I
                >
                > never asked the band members, that the Estate didn't charge any
                >
                > licensing fees or royalties on the project?)
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Visit your group "mythsoc" on the web.
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > mythsoc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >


                --
                ____________________________________________________________________________

                "...it concerns three men who are about to be executed. The prison governor
                calls them to his office, and explains that each will be granted a last
                request. The first one confesses that he has led a sinful life, and would
                like to see a priest. The governor says he thinks he can arrange that. And
                the second man? The second man explains that he is a professor of
                cybernetics. His last request is to deliver a final and definitive answer to
                the question: what is cybernetics? The governor accedes to this request
                also. And the third man? Well, he is a doctoral student of the professor --
                his request is to be executed second."Joke Related by Stafford Beer
                October 2001
              • Carl F. Hostetter
                ... The latest British edition of _The Road Goes Ever On_ contains a CD of a performance of the song cycle:
                Message 7 of 10 , Jul 1, 2005
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                  On Jul 1, 2005, at 11:14 AM, lezlie1@... wrote:

                  > The thing is, I still like the Swann/Tolkien collaboration better &
                  > have been trying to find a copy of my very own for years and years.

                  The latest British edition of _The Road Goes Ever On_ contains a CD
                  of a performance of the song cycle:

                  http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0007136552/
                • dianejoy@earthlink.net
                  ... From: lezlie1@znet.com Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 08:01:23 -0700 To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Digest Number 1941 ... LOL! I would love
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jul 1, 2005
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                    Original Message:
                    -----------------
                    From: lezlie1@...
                    Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 08:01:23 -0700
                    To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Digest Number 1941


                    Quoting Walkermonk@...:


                    > In a message dated 7/1/2005 8:09:10 AM Central Daylight Time,
                    > jbcroft@...
                    >
                    > writes:
                    >
                    > MKK: I don't suppose they'd appreciate a paper on Elric as the Sulky
                    >
                    > Teen-Age Angst Incarnation of the Immortal Hero, huh?

                    LOL! I would love to read it-- generally what I thought of him, and never
                    read another! (also the gratuitious violence-- not my cuppa...) Lezlie


                    LOL 2x for me! How can I top MKK's comments, when they say everything I've
                    felt about Moorcock so well (tho Leslie rightly points out the violence).
                    So adolescent! Some kids never grow up. ---djb


                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Why not? It's a valid subgenre of the Immortal Hero. Must be some
                    >
                    > others out there who either influenced or were influenced by him, or
                    >
                    > present a good example for comparison. Heck, look how sulky Harry
                    >
                    > Potter got in the last book -- no big black sword, but plenty of angst!
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Janet
                    >
                    > ---
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Neil Gaiman has a really interesting (at least, I thought it was
                    > interesting)
                    >
                    > short story about the influence of Moorcock on his own work.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Grace Monk
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Visit your group "mythsoc" on the web.
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > mythsoc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    --
                    ____________________________________________________________________________

                    "...it concerns three men who are about to be executed. The prison governor
                    calls them to his office, and explains that each will be granted a last
                    request. The first one confesses that he has led a sinful life, and would
                    like to see a priest. The governor says he thinks he can arrange that. And
                    the second man? The second man explains that he is a professor of
                    cybernetics. His last request is to deliver a final and definitive answer to
                    the question: what is cybernetics? The governor accedes to this request
                    also. And the third man? Well, he is a doctoral student of the professor --
                    his request is to be executed second."Joke Related by Stafford Beer
                    October 2001


                    The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
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                  • lezlie1@znet.com
                    Thank you ! Thank you!!! ... -- ____________________________________________________________________________ ...it concerns three men who are about to be
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jul 1, 2005
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                      Thank you ! Thank you!!!

                      Quoting "Carl F. Hostetter" <Aelfwine@...>:

                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > On Jul 1, 2005, at 11:14 AM, lezlie1@... wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > > The thing is, I still like the Swann/Tolkien collaboration better &
                      >
                      > > have been trying to find a copy of my very own for years and years.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > The latest British edition of _The Road Goes Ever On_ contains a CD
                      >
                      > of a performance of the song cycle:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0007136552/
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                      --
                      ____________________________________________________________________________

                      "...it concerns three men who are about to be executed. The prison governor
                      calls them to his office, and explains that each will be granted a last
                      request. The first one confesses that he has led a sinful life, and would
                      like to see a priest. The governor says he thinks he can arrange that. And
                      the second man? The second man explains that he is a professor of
                      cybernetics. His last request is to deliver a final and definitive answer to
                      the question: what is cybernetics? The governor accedes to this request
                      also. And the third man? Well, he is a doctoral student of the professor --
                      his request is to be executed second."Joke Related by Stafford Beer
                      October 2001
                    • Walkermonk@aol.com
                      In a message dated 7/1/2005 10:24:53 AM Central Daylight Time, dianejoy@earthlink.net writes: LOL! I would love to read it-- generally what I thought of him,
                      Message 10 of 10 , Jul 1, 2005
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                        In a message dated 7/1/2005 10:24:53 AM Central Daylight Time,
                        dianejoy@... writes:
                        LOL! I would love to read it-- generally what I thought of him, and never
                        read another! (also the gratuitious violence-- not my cuppa...) Lezlie


                        LOL 2x for me! How can I top MKK's comments, when they say everything I've
                        felt about Moorcock so well (tho Leslie rightly points out the violence).
                        So adolescent! Some kids never grow up. ---djb
                        ---

                        I really do recommend Neil Gaiman's story very highly -- it manages to show
                        that adolescent angst for what it is, while remembering how serious it felt at
                        the time and how life changes. (It also tells more of his frustration with CSL
                        as a young teen.) The title of the story is "A Life Furnished in Early
                        Moorcock." It's in his "Smoke and Mirrors" collection.

                        Grace


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