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CS Lewis and the "Committee revising Ancient and Modern [Hymns]"

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  • Vincent Ferré
    Good morning, In one of his letters (n° 90, november 1944) , J.R.R. Tolkien mentions the Committee revising Ancient and Modern [Hymns] of which C.S. Lewis
    Message 1 of 22 , Jun 25, 2005
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      Good morning,

      In one of his letters (n° 90, november 1944) , J.R.R. Tolkien mentions the "Committee revising Ancient and Modern [Hymns]" of which C.S. Lewis is a member.
      I could not find any information about this committee - which I need to translate properly this expression. Does anyone know to what it refers ?



      many thanks in advance (as usual)



      Vincent




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Hugh Davis
      ... Unfortunately, I don t know anything about this, but I d like to hear what is discovered. I was under the impression (although I don t know that I have a
      Message 2 of 22 , Jun 25, 2005
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        >From: Vincent Ferr� <ferretolk@...>
        >In one of his letters (n� 90, november 1944) , J.R.R. Tolkien mentions the
        >"Committee revising Ancient and Modern [Hymns]" of which C.S. Lewis is a
        >member.
        >I could not find any information about this committee - which I need to
        >translate properly this expression. Does anyone know to what it refers ?

        Unfortunately, I don't know anything about this, but I'd like to hear what
        is discovered. I was under the impression (although I don't know that I have
        a specific citation in mind) that Lewis did not care for the Anglican
        Hymnal. Was this the case? Does anyone know what hymns he would have known?
        I'm curious if he knew "Sing, my tongue, the glorious battle," for one.

        Thanks as well,
        Hugh
      • David Bratman
        Hymns Ancient and Modern is the title of a book, published in 1861, that included translations of early Christian hymns as well as more recent hymns. It was
        Message 3 of 22 , Jun 25, 2005
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          "Hymns Ancient and Modern" is the title of a book, published in 1861, that
          included translations of early Christian hymns as well as more recent
          hymns. It was the basic English Victorian Anglican hymnal. An entirely
          revised edition was published in 1950, and I presume that is what Lewis was
          working on.

          Here's a little bit about the book:

          <http://www.smithcreekmusic.com/Hymnology/British.Hymnody/HymnsA&M.html>

          David Bratman


          At 03:57 PM 6/25/2005 +0200, Vincent wrote:
          >Good morning,
          >
          >In one of his letters (n° 90, november 1944) , J.R.R. Tolkien mentions the
          >"Committee revising Ancient and Modern [Hymns]" of which C.S. Lewis is a
          >member.
          >I could not find any information about this committee - which I need to
          >translate properly this expression. Does anyone know to what it refers ?
        • Stolzi
          ... From: Hugh Davis To: Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 10:24 AM Subject: RE: [mythsoc] CS Lewis and the
          Message 4 of 22 , Jun 25, 2005
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            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Hugh Davis" <HughHDavis@...>
            To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 10:24 AM
            Subject: RE: [mythsoc] CS Lewis and the "Committee revising Ancient and
            Modern [Hymns]"


            > >From: Vincent Ferré <ferretolk@...>
            > >In one of his letters (n° 90, november 1944) , J.R.R. Tolkien mentions
            the
            > >"Committee revising Ancient and Modern [Hymns]" of which C.S. Lewis is a
            > >member.
            > >I could not find any information about this committee - which I need to
            > >translate properly this expression. Does anyone know to what it refers ?


            "Hymns Ancient and Modern" is the actual name of the collection, which is or
            was used in many Church of England parishes. I believe it's been out of
            fashion for a long time; I seem to remember however using it in a small,
            financially-limited parish in Southern Africa, about 25 years ago.

            Here is a very interesting page about the collection (originating in the
            19th Century) and its contents:

            http://www.smithcreekmusic.com/Hymnology/British.Hymnody/HymnsA&M.html

            I had vaguely thought Lewis was on a committee for the revision of the
            Psalter (found in the back of the Church of England's Book of Common
            Prayer). I wonder if Tolkien was correct about the committee for Hymns A&M.

            > Unfortunately, I don't know anything about this, but I'd like to hear what
            > is discovered. I was under the impression (although I don't know that I
            have
            > a specific citation in mind) that Lewis did not care for the Anglican
            > Hymnal. Was this the case? Does anyone know what hymns he would have
            known?

            After years and years of compulsory chapels in youth and later churchgoing,
            he would have known a great many, unless he managed to shut them out; "Hymns
            were (and are) extremely disagreeable to me." - Surprised by Joy, Ch.XV.

            > I'm curious if he knew "Sing, my tongue, the glorious battle," for one.

            According to this page, that is one of those in HYMNS ANCIENT AND MODERN:

            http://www.oremus.org/hymnal/amstd.html
            http://www.oremus.org/hymnal/s/s164.html


            A webpage I found shows that he knew this one, wh he quoted in REFLECTIONS
            ON THE PSALMS:

            >there was no other 'good enough to pay the price'
            » From the hymn 'There is a green hill far away', No. 332 in Hymns Ancient
            and Modern.

            http://www.solcon.nl/arendsmilde/cslewis/reflections/e-psalmsquotes.htm


            Diamond Proudbrook
          • Hugh Davis
            Thank you. That s good information and a good site. Hugh
            Message 5 of 22 , Jun 25, 2005
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              Thank you. That's good information and a good site.

              Hugh

              >From: "Stolzi" <Stolzi@...>
              >Reply-To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
              >To: "Mythopoeic Society" <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
              >Subject: Re: [mythsoc] CS Lewis and the "Committee revising Ancient and
              >Modern [Hymns]"
              >Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:54:29 -0500
              >
              >----- Original Message -----
              >From: "Hugh Davis" <HughHDavis@...>
              >To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
              >Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 10:24 AM
              >Subject: RE: [mythsoc] CS Lewis and the "Committee revising Ancient and
              >Modern [Hymns]"
              >
              >
              > > >From: Vincent Ferr� <ferretolk@...>
              > > >In one of his letters (n� 90, november 1944) , J.R.R. Tolkien mentions
              >the
              > > >"Committee revising Ancient and Modern [Hymns]" of which C.S. Lewis is
              >a
              > > >member.
              > > >I could not find any information about this committee - which I need to
              > > >translate properly this expression. Does anyone know to what it refers
              >?
              >
              >
              >"Hymns Ancient and Modern" is the actual name of the collection, which is
              >or
              >was used in many Church of England parishes. I believe it's been out of
              >fashion for a long time; I seem to remember however using it in a small,
              >financially-limited parish in Southern Africa, about 25 years ago.
              >
              >Here is a very interesting page about the collection (originating in the
              >19th Century) and its contents:
              >
              >http://www.smithcreekmusic.com/Hymnology/British.Hymnody/HymnsA&M.html
              >
              >I had vaguely thought Lewis was on a committee for the revision of the
              >Psalter (found in the back of the Church of England's Book of Common
              >Prayer). I wonder if Tolkien was correct about the committee for Hymns
              >A&M.
              >
              > > Unfortunately, I don't know anything about this, but I'd like to hear
              >what
              > > is discovered. I was under the impression (although I don't know that I
              >have
              > > a specific citation in mind) that Lewis did not care for the Anglican
              > > Hymnal. Was this the case? Does anyone know what hymns he would have
              >known?
              >
              >After years and years of compulsory chapels in youth and later churchgoing,
              >he would have known a great many, unless he managed to shut them out;
              >"Hymns
              >were (and are) extremely disagreeable to me." - Surprised by Joy, Ch.XV.
              >
              > > I'm curious if he knew "Sing, my tongue, the glorious battle," for one.
              >
              >According to this page, that is one of those in HYMNS ANCIENT AND MODERN:
              >
              >http://www.oremus.org/hymnal/amstd.html
              >http://www.oremus.org/hymnal/s/s164.html
              >
              >
              >A webpage I found shows that he knew this one, wh he quoted in REFLECTIONS
              >ON THE PSALMS:
              >
              > >there was no other 'good enough to pay the price'
              >� From the hymn 'There is a green hill far away', No. 332 in Hymns Ancient
              >and Modern.
              >
              >http://www.solcon.nl/arendsmilde/cslewis/reflections/e-psalmsquotes.htm
              >
              >
              >Diamond Proudbrook
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Hugh Davis
              I have a query about a point in LWW. In re-reading the novel, I am curious why Edmund isn t told of the sacrifice Aslan makes in his place. I know the argument
              Message 6 of 22 , Jun 25, 2005
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                I have a query about a point in LWW. In re-reading the novel, I am curious
                why Edmund isn't told of the sacrifice Aslan makes in his place. I know the
                argument Susan offers ("wouldn't you feel awful if you were in his place?"),
                and I think when I first read this and was much younger I just accepted
                that. But why shouldn't Edmund be told? I know Aslan says when the siblings
                are first reunited that there need not be any talk about that which has
                already passed, and I can see this being carried out in the same manner, but
                I am left with the question of why.

                In his _Companion to Narnia_, Paul Ford suggests that Lucy does tell Edmund
                at some point, given how Edmund acts as he grows older, but we have no proof
                either way.

                Can anyone answer why Lewis leaves this unclear?

                Thanks,
                Hugh Davis
              • Vincent Ferré
                Thank you _very_ much, David and Diamond... Vincent [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                Message 7 of 22 , Jun 26, 2005
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                  Thank you _very_ much, David and Diamond...

                  Vincent

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Stolzi
                  You re welcome, Vincent! I still keep thinking that CSL would not have joined any Committee like that. Not with his views on hymns, and not during the War
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jun 26, 2005
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                    You're welcome, Vincent!

                    I still keep thinking that CSL would not have joined any Committee like
                    that. Not with his views on hymns, and not during the War when he was busy
                    as possible with so many other things...

                    MS
                  • David Bratman
                    It is possible that Tolkien was mistaken about what committee Lewis was actually a member of. However, there s no notes on this subject to the published
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jun 26, 2005
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                      It is possible that Tolkien was mistaken about what committee Lewis was
                      actually a member of.

                      However, there's no notes on this subject to the published letter, and it's
                      not Vincent's job as translator to do original research. He merely needs
                      to know what Tolkien's phrase "Committee revising Ancient and Modern" means
                      grammatically so that he may translate it accurately, and I think we've
                      answered that one.

                      DB
                    • Danielle Karpouzian
                      I am in grad school in Mankato, MN and am organizing a Tolkien conference for Spring Semester. While we are still in the early planning stages (getting a CFP
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jun 29, 2005
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                        I am in grad school in Mankato, MN and am organizing a Tolkien conference for Spring Semester. While we are still in the early planning stages (getting a CFP together) and solidifying dates, I was wondering who would make a good (CHEAP) keynote speaker? I have emailed Tom Shippey, and he said that the drive would be too far unless he was going to be up in Duluth at the medieval archives there...

                        Does anyone have any other suggestions? Our focus is going to be (tentitavely) "Applicibility for Today?" and we will be having panels/papers on film as well as Tolkien's literature...

                        Also, if anyone is interested in submitting, I will be more than happy to send out a CFP when we have gotten that far...



                        ---------------------------------
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                      • lezlie1@znet.com
                        Hello-- It s a long shot, but Prof. Alexander Laszlo at the California Institute of Integral Studies has been working on a some research concerning Tolkien and
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jun 29, 2005
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                          Hello-- It's a long shot, but Prof. Alexander Laszlo at the California
                          Institute of Integral Studies has been working on a some research concerning
                          Tolkien and sustainable ecology. His email is: "Alexander Laszlo"
                          <alexander@...>

                          If you open the conference to other grad. students and recent grads. & send
                          a call for papers, I will post it on the board for my school & send it out
                          and about.

                          BTW, I just subbed to this group and have been "lurking" a little, I am a
                          writer, poet and independent scholar. Glad to have found you. Yours, Lezlie

                          Quoting Danielle Karpouzian <tolkienwasamarxist@...>:
                          > I am in grad school in Mankato, MN and am organizing a Tolkien conference
                          > for Spring Semester. While we are still in the early planning stages
                          > (getting a CFP together) and solidifying dates, I was wondering who would
                          > make a good (CHEAP) keynote speaker? I have emailed Tom Shippey, and he
                          > said that the drive would be too far unless he was going to be up in
                          > Duluth at the medieval archives there...
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Does anyone have any other suggestions? Our focus is going to be
                          > (tentatively) "Applicability for Today?" and we will be having
                          > panels/papers on film as well as Tolkien's literature...
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Also, if anyone is interested in submitting, I will be more than happy to
                          > send out a CFP when we have gotten that far...
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                          > Yahoo! Sports
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                          > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
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                          > Visit your group "mythsoc" on the web.
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                          --
                          ____________________________________________________________________________

                          "...it concerns three men who are about to be executed. The prison governor
                          calls them to his office, and explains that each will be granted a last
                          request. The first one confesses that he has led a sinful life, and would
                          like to see a priest. The governor says he thinks he can arrange that. And
                          the second man? The second man explains that he is a professor of
                          cybernetics. His last request is to deliver a final and definitive answer to
                          the question: what is cybernetics? The governor accedes to this request
                          also. And the third man? Well, he is a doctoral student of the professor --
                          his request is to be executed second."Joke Related by Stafford Beer
                          October 2001
                        • WendellWag@aol.com
                          In a message dated 6/29/2005 11:00:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, tolkienwasamarxist@yahoo.com writes: While we are still in the early planning stages
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jun 30, 2005
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                            In a message dated 6/29/2005 11:00:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                            tolkienwasamarxist@... writes:

                            While we are still in the early planning stages (getting a CFP together) and
                            solidifying dates, I was wondering who would make a good (CHEAP) keynote
                            speaker?


                            I guess people here are too modest to nominate themselves. Since Tom
                            Shippey turned you down because he couldn't do this trip just for this conference,
                            I presume that this means that you won't be able to afford someone really
                            well known or really far away and hence expensive. How about Mike Foster, who
                            teaches at Illinois Central College? How about Verlyn Flieger, who teaches at
                            the University of Maryland, College Park? How about Charles Huttar, who
                            teaches at Hope College in Michigan (although he's more of a general Inklings
                            scholar than a Tolkien one)? How about Douglas Anderson, although I don't know
                            where he lives? How about Christina Scull and Wayne Hammond, who live in
                            Williamstown, Massachusetts? Come one, people, help me out here. Give us some
                            more names, and don't be afraid to nominate yourselves.

                            Wendell Wagner


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • WendellWag@aol.com
                            In a message dated 6/30/2005 10:37:00 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, WendellWag@aol.com writes: I guess people here are too modest to nominate themselves. Since
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jun 30, 2005
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                              In a message dated 6/30/2005 10:37:00 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                              WendellWag@... writes:

                              I guess people here are too modest to nominate themselves. Since Tom
                              Shippey turned you down because he couldn't do this trip just for this
                              conference,
                              I presume that this means that you won't be able to afford someone really
                              well known or really far away and hence expensive. How about Mike Foster,
                              who
                              teaches at Illinois Central College? How about Verlyn Flieger, who teaches
                              at
                              the University of Maryland, College Park? How about Charles Huttar, who
                              teaches at Hope College in Michigan (although he's more of a general
                              Inklings
                              scholar than a Tolkien one)? How about Douglas Anderson, although I don't
                              know
                              where he lives? How about Christina Scull and Wayne Hammond, who live in
                              Williamstown, Massachusetts? Come one, people, help me out here. Give us
                              some more names, and don't be afraid to nominate yourselves.



                              Am I the only one who's willing to be helpful about this guy's request?
                              Here are some more suggestions: How about Jane Chance, who teaches at Rice
                              University in Texas? How about Randel Helms, who teaches at Arizona State
                              University (although he may no longer be interested in Tolkien)? How about Jared
                              Lobdell, who teaches at Central Pennsylvania Business School (although he's a
                              general Inklings person rather than Tolkien specifically)? Were it not for
                              the fact that it was stated that a cheap keynote speaker was needed, I would
                              have suggested John Garth, but a trans-Atlantic trip may be too expensive for
                              the conference. Come on, some of you know the field better than I do and can
                              suggest speakers better than I can.

                              Wendell Wagner


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Stolzi
                              I suggest Janet B Croft! Diamond Proudbrook
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jul 1 6:21 AM
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                                I suggest Janet B Croft!

                                Diamond Proudbrook
                              • Hugh Davis
                                Can anyone help me with a question from LWW? Why is it deemed unnecessary to tell Edmund about Aslan s sacrifice at the stone table? It seems that, if Aslan s
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jul 1 2:56 PM
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                                  Can anyone help me with a question from LWW? Why is it deemed unnecessary to
                                  tell Edmund about Aslan's sacrifice at the stone table? It seems that, if
                                  Aslan's death and resurrection show the Narnian equivalent to Christ's
                                  crucifixion and resurrection in our world, then Edmund, as the human Aslan
                                  dies in the stead of, would be best able to react to that sacrifice by
                                  knowing what happened.

                                  Any suggestions?

                                  Thanks,
                                  Hugh
                                • David Bratman
                                  A keynote speaker is one who sets the theme, and need not necessarily be the top scholar present. (A keynote speaker is not the same as a Guest of Honor.)
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jul 2 2:05 AM
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                                    A keynote speaker is one who sets the theme, and need not necessarily be
                                    the top scholar present. (A keynote speaker is not the same as a Guest of
                                    Honor.) Conferences I've attended with keynote speakers usually have them
                                    give general, introductory addresses and leave the technical wizardry to
                                    the papers sessions. I imagine there are people in our Twin Cities group
                                    who'd be very good keynote speakers, who'd have good things to say that
                                    would be scholarly too, and who'd be quite easy to get.

                                    DB


                                    At 07:11 AM 6/29/2005 -0700, Danielle Karpouzian wrote:
                                    >
                                    >I am in grad school in Mankato, MN and am organizing a Tolkien conference
                                    >for Spring Semester. While we are still in the early planning stages
                                    >(getting a CFP together) and solidifying dates, I was wondering who would
                                    >make a good (CHEAP) keynote speaker? I have emailed Tom Shippey, and he
                                    >said that the drive would be too far unless he was going to be up in Duluth
                                    >at the medieval archives there...
                                    >
                                    >Does anyone have any other suggestions? Our focus is going to be
                                    >(tentitavely) "Applicibility for Today?" and we will be having panels/papers
                                    >on film as well as Tolkien's literature...
                                    >
                                    >Also, if anyone is interested in submitting, I will be more than happy to
                                    >send out a CFP when we have gotten that far...
                                  • Berni Phillips
                                    Maybe David Emerson? ... From: David Bratman ... group
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jul 2 3:19 PM
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                                      Maybe David Emerson?

                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: "David Bratman" <dbratman@...>


                                      > A keynote speaker is one who sets the theme, and need not necessarily be
                                      > the top scholar present. (I imagine there are people in our Twin Cities
                                      group
                                      > who'd be very good keynote speakers, who'd have good things to say that
                                      > would be scholarly too, and who'd be quite easy to get.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > At 07:11 AM 6/29/2005 -0700, Danielle Karpouzian wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > >I am in grad school in Mankato, MN and am organizing a Tolkien conference
                                      > >for Spring Semester. While we are still in the early planning stages
                                      > >(getting a CFP together) and solidifying dates, I was wondering who would
                                      > >make a good (CHEAP) keynote speaker?
                                    • dianejoy@earthlink.net
                                      I have a feeling that CSL wanted to simplify the theological issues here, and keep Edmund s conversion largely off stage. I seem to recall that there s a
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Jul 4 8:10 AM
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                                        I have a feeling that CSL wanted to simplify the theological issues here,
                                        and keep Edmund's "conversion" largely off stage. I seem to recall that
                                        there's a place where Lewis said that Aslan and Edmund had a long talk, but
                                        I may be remembering wrong. ---djb

                                        Original Message:
                                        -----------------
                                        From: Hugh Davis HughHDavis@...
                                        Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 17:56:57 -0400
                                        To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: [mythsoc] Query about Edmund


                                        Can anyone help me with a question from LWW? Why is it deemed unnecessary
                                        to
                                        tell Edmund about Aslan's sacrifice at the stone table? It seems that, if
                                        Aslan's death and resurrection show the Narnian equivalent to Christ's
                                        crucifixion and resurrection in our world, then Edmund, as the human Aslan
                                        dies in the stead of, would be best able to react to that sacrifice by
                                        knowing what happened.

                                        Any suggestions?

                                        Thanks,
                                        Hugh




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                                      • Hugh Davis
                                        They do have a long talk, prior to the White Witch coming and demanding Edmund s blood. It s debatable how much Aslan knows before things happen--he seems
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Jul 4 8:57 AM
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                                          They do have a long talk, prior to the White Witch coming and demanding
                                          Edmund's blood. It's debatable how much Aslan knows before things happen--he
                                          seems unsure heading to the stone table and has told Peter he may not be at
                                          the battle the next day--so it's left unclear whether or not Aslan knows the
                                          Witch will come and make this claim (although presumably he could expect it
                                          from one like her). In his _Companion to Narnia_, Paul Ford suggests, given
                                          how Edmund acts as he matures, that Lucy might win out against Susan and
                                          tell Edmund afterall.

                                          I was curious if those more familiar with Lewis' personal writings and
                                          letters knew if he had ever commented on this scene, or been asked about it,
                                          or if it could relate to his own views of the sacrifice in the crucifixion.

                                          Thanks, Diane, by the way, for the reply--I was starting to fear I was a
                                          voice alone in the wilderness!

                                          Hugh

                                          >From: "dianejoy@..." <dianejoy@...>
                                          >Reply-To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                          >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                          >Subject: RE: [mythsoc] Query about Edmund
                                          >Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 11:10:09 -0400
                                          >
                                          >I have a feeling that CSL wanted to simplify the theological issues here,
                                          >and keep Edmund's "conversion" largely off stage. I seem to recall that
                                          >there's a place where Lewis said that Aslan and Edmund had a long talk, but
                                          >I may be remembering wrong. ---djb
                                          >
                                          >Original Message:
                                          >-----------------
                                          >From: Hugh Davis HughHDavis@...
                                          >Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 17:56:57 -0400
                                          >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                          >Subject: [mythsoc] Query about Edmund
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >Can anyone help me with a question from LWW? Why is it deemed unnecessary
                                          >to
                                          >tell Edmund about Aslan's sacrifice at the stone table? It seems that, if
                                          >Aslan's death and resurrection show the Narnian equivalent to Christ's
                                          >crucifixion and resurrection in our world, then Edmund, as the human Aslan
                                          >dies in the stead of, would be best able to react to that sacrifice by
                                          >knowing what happened.
                                          >
                                          >Any suggestions?
                                          >
                                          >Thanks,
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                                        • Walkermonk@aol.com
                                          In a message dated 7/4/2005 10:17:19 AM Central Daylight Time, dianejoy@earthlink.net writes: I have a feeling that CSL wanted to simplify the theological
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Jul 4 9:39 AM
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                                            In a message dated 7/4/2005 10:17:19 AM Central Daylight Time,
                                            dianejoy@... writes:
                                            I have a feeling that CSL wanted to simplify the theological issues here,
                                            and keep Edmund's "conversion" largely off stage. I seem to recall that
                                            there's a place where Lewis said that Aslan and Edmund had a long talk, but
                                            I may be remembering wrong. ---djb
                                            -

                                            I know Edmund is aware of *something* because of his conversation with the
                                            undragoned Eustace in "Dawn Treader."

                                            Grace


                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Heather Gemmen
                                            Hello, It seems to me that Edmund is an Adam figure who will learn about Aslan s sacrifice through the course of time; Edmund as a person doesn t have the
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Jul 7 11:51 AM
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                                              Hello,

                                              It seems to me that Edmund is an Adam figure who will learn about
                                              Aslan's sacrifice through the course of time; Edmund as a person
                                              doesn't have the intellectual ability to grasp "sacrifice" if someone
                                              tells him about it, as he is completely self-centered at this stage
                                              in his development. As an Adam figure should be. Therefore, it would
                                              be pointless for Edmund to be told about Aslan's sacrifice, as Edmund
                                              would discount it out of hand; it's just his personality, and Aslan
                                              recognizes it.

                                              Aslan's uncertitude seems also fear, as Jesus was fearful in the
                                              hours leading up to his own death. Even to a devout Christian, doubt
                                              is a part of belief. I interpret Aslan's apprehension of future
                                              events to be similar to Christ's, who knew what would transpire but
                                              dreaded it nonetheless. In our world Jesus was abandoned by God on
                                              the cross, and when I imagined Aslan's body lying cold on the stone I
                                              pictured him as completely separate from his faraway father as well.

                                              Aslan seems to go through the "Mount of Olives meditations" before
                                              this scene. I re-read some of these scenes a number of times and I
                                              don't think I could make sense of them if I isolated one scene and
                                              read it as a stand-alone.

                                              Sorry this contribution to the Edmund discussion came a little late.
                                              That's a problem with mobile computing--you can bring your laptop to
                                              the cottage but you can't find a 45-mile-long Ethernet cable to
                                              accommodate.


                                              Regards,

                                              Heather Gemmen
                                              B.A., Calvin College 1990
                                              English Masters of Arts Program, Grand Valley State University



                                              On Jul 5, 2005, at 6:58 AM, mythsoc@yahoogroups.com wrote:

                                              > Message: 4
                                              > Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 11:57:41 -0400
                                              > From: "Hugh Davis" <HughHDavis@...>
                                              > Subject: RE: Query about Edmund
                                              >
                                              > They do have a long talk, prior to the White Witch coming and
                                              > demanding
                                              > Edmund's blood. It's debatable how much Aslan knows before things
                                              > happen--he
                                              > seems unsure heading to the stone table and has told Peter he may
                                              > not be at
                                              > the battle the next day--so it's left unclear whether or not Aslan
                                              > knows the
                                              > Witch will come and make this claim (although presumably he could
                                              > expect it
                                              > from one like her). In his _Companion to Narnia_, Paul Ford
                                              > suggests, given
                                              > how Edmund acts as he matures, that Lucy might win out against
                                              > Susan and
                                              > tell Edmund afterall.
                                              >
                                              > I was curious if those more familiar with Lewis' personal writings and
                                              > letters knew if he had ever commented on this scene, or been asked
                                              > about it,
                                              > or if it could relate to his own views of the sacrifice in the
                                              > crucifixion.
                                              >
                                              > Thanks, Diane, by the way, for the reply--I was starting to fear I
                                              > was a
                                              > voice alone in the wilderness!
                                              >
                                              > Hugh



                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Hugh Davis
                                              Thank you for your response. I agree with your interpretation of Aslan. I think there s a measure of fear and uncertainty together there, precisely becauae he
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Jul 10 6:27 PM
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                                                Thank you for your response. I agree with your interpretation of Aslan. I
                                                think there's a measure of fear and uncertainty together there, precisely
                                                becauae he does feel alone.

                                                While I agree Edmund is an Adam figure in many ways, he is less-and-less
                                                self-centered as the novel progresses, and I am not sure he couldn't grasp
                                                sacrifice if told about it. When reminded how fearful he is when the witch
                                                is calling for his blood, he should understand the importance of what Aslan
                                                has done. I can see it would be difficult, but I don't know that telling him
                                                lacks a purpose.

                                                Hugh

                                                >From: Heather Gemmen <hgemmen@...>
                                                >Reply-To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                                >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                                >CC: Heather Gemmen <hgemmen@...>
                                                >Subject: [mythsoc] Re: Query about Edmund
                                                >Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 14:51:07 -0400
                                                >
                                                >Hello,
                                                >
                                                >It seems to me that Edmund is an Adam figure who will learn about
                                                >Aslan's sacrifice through the course of time; Edmund as a person
                                                >doesn't have the intellectual ability to grasp "sacrifice" if someone
                                                >tells him about it, as he is completely self-centered at this stage
                                                >in his development. As an Adam figure should be. Therefore, it would
                                                >be pointless for Edmund to be told about Aslan's sacrifice, as Edmund
                                                >would discount it out of hand; it's just his personality, and Aslan
                                                >recognizes it.
                                                >
                                                >Aslan's uncertitude seems also fear, as Jesus was fearful in the
                                                >hours leading up to his own death. Even to a devout Christian, doubt
                                                >is a part of belief. I interpret Aslan's apprehension of future
                                                >events to be similar to Christ's, who knew what would transpire but
                                                >dreaded it nonetheless. In our world Jesus was abandoned by God on
                                                >the cross, and when I imagined Aslan's body lying cold on the stone I
                                                >pictured him as completely separate from his faraway father as well.
                                                >
                                                >Aslan seems to go through the "Mount of Olives meditations" before
                                                >this scene. I re-read some of these scenes a number of times and I
                                                >don't think I could make sense of them if I isolated one scene and
                                                >read it as a stand-alone.
                                                >
                                                >Sorry this contribution to the Edmund discussion came a little late.
                                                >That's a problem with mobile computing--you can bring your laptop to
                                                >the cottage but you can't find a 45-mile-long Ethernet cable to
                                                >accommodate.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >Regards,
                                                >
                                                >Heather Gemmen
                                                >B.A., Calvin College 1990
                                                >English Masters of Arts Program, Grand Valley State University
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >On Jul 5, 2005, at 6:58 AM, mythsoc@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                                                >
                                                > > Message: 4
                                                > > Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 11:57:41 -0400
                                                > > From: "Hugh Davis" <HughHDavis@...>
                                                > > Subject: RE: Query about Edmund
                                                > >
                                                > > They do have a long talk, prior to the White Witch coming and
                                                > > demanding
                                                > > Edmund's blood. It's debatable how much Aslan knows before things
                                                > > happen--he
                                                > > seems unsure heading to the stone table and has told Peter he may
                                                > > not be at
                                                > > the battle the next day--so it's left unclear whether or not Aslan
                                                > > knows the
                                                > > Witch will come and make this claim (although presumably he could
                                                > > expect it
                                                > > from one like her). In his _Companion to Narnia_, Paul Ford
                                                > > suggests, given
                                                > > how Edmund acts as he matures, that Lucy might win out against
                                                > > Susan and
                                                > > tell Edmund afterall.
                                                > >
                                                > > I was curious if those more familiar with Lewis' personal writings and
                                                > > letters knew if he had ever commented on this scene, or been asked
                                                > > about it,
                                                > > or if it could relate to his own views of the sacrifice in the
                                                > > crucifixion.
                                                > >
                                                > > Thanks, Diane, by the way, for the reply--I was starting to fear I
                                                > > was a
                                                > > voice alone in the wilderness!
                                                > >
                                                > > Hugh
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                >
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