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Re: [mythsoc] Revenge of the Sith and the Jedi

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  • Hugh Davis
    David, I grant I probably spent more time on this than needed, but isn t overthinking an occupational hazard? I honestly didn t spend too long on my writing,
    Message 1 of 13 , May 27 2:46 PM
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      David,

      I grant I probably spent more time on this than needed, but isn't
      overthinking an occupational hazard?

      I honestly didn't spend too long on my writing, although I think the pieces
      have been gestating over many years. After all, I was a child when those fun
      romps did first come out, and I engaged in speculation (both just within my
      mind and with friends) about those backstories. I think there's still great
      potential there, but Lucas' tinkering is whittling it away, sadly.

      I agree the original film was a fun romp, and even _Return of the Jedi_ is
      quite fun, if silly (but then again, the serials that gave Lucas his first
      inspiration are both silly and fun); the attempts to make the movies more
      serious (and more mythic) have drained much of the joy.

      I do think many of those who have belittled the prequels for being "too
      childish" or too silly are angry fans who have forgotten why they first
      enjoyed the films. They want to pretend the original films were more
      sophisticated.

      Hugh

      >From: David Bratman <dbratman@...>
      >Reply-To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
      >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Revenge of the Sith and the Jedi
      >Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 14:19:23 -0700
      >
      >Hugh Davis -
      >
      >It seems to me that you've devoted more care and attention to studying the
      >Jedi saga as an entity than George Lucas has. And that's the problem,
      >isn't it?
      >
      >Both the complex backstory to the original films, and the comments that
      >Lucas made at the time, gave the impression that he had drafted a full
      >outline of the entire saga. But even the later parts of the original
      >trilogy, let alone what has come since (to the extent that I know about
      >it), give the opposite impression. To take just one classic example: I
      >don't think that Lucas knew, when writing the original Star Wars, that
      >Vader was Luke's father any more than Luke did. And if he was planning it
      >all along, he still managed to write it as if it was a new off-the-wall
      >idea that he threw in at the last minute, which is even worse. (Yes, I
      >know that the screenplay for Empire was written by real screenwriters. Yet
      >it still can't shed the air of amateur hackwork!)
      >
      >The things you're discussing here don't matter for a fun romp of a movie,
      >which the first film was. But if you take it seriously, the best
      >conclusion is that it's just something thrown together that isn't worth
      >taking seriously. We got a few hack mythic tropes thrown into a blender
      >without any consideration of whether they fit together. It's virtually the
      >opposite of the genuinely mythopoeic, and not worth wasting your time over.
      >
      >David Bratman
      >
    • David Bratman
      No, Hugh. The problem isn t that you spent too much time on this. The problem is that George Lucas spent too little. DB
      Message 2 of 13 , May 27 4:42 PM
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        No, Hugh. The problem isn't that you spent too much time on this. The
        problem is that George Lucas spent too little.

        DB
      • Hugh Davis
        Well, thanks. I wish it were different, but I fear you re right.
        Message 3 of 13 , May 27 5:51 PM
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          Well, thanks. I wish it were different, but I fear you're right.

          >From: David Bratman <dbratman@...>
          >Reply-To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
          >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
          >Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Revenge of the Sith and the Jedi
          >Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 16:42:07 -0700
          >
          >No, Hugh. The problem isn't that you spent too much time on this. The
          >problem is that George Lucas spent too little.
          >
          >DB
          >
        • Matthew Winslow
          ... Not to bludgeon this dying horse, but a film-critic friend of mine has posted some interesting quotes from Lucas from the time of the making of Empire.
          Message 4 of 13 , May 28 8:26 AM
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            On 5/27/05, Hugh Davis <HughHDavis@...> wrote:
            > Well, thanks. I wish it were different, but I fear you're right.

            Not to bludgeon this dying horse, but a film-critic friend of mine has
            posted some interesting quotes from Lucas from the time of the making
            of Empire. From these quotes, it sounds more like Lucas caved in to
            popularity and what he believed made a fun movie, rather than sticking
            to his story as he originally conceived it. Had he done so, would we
            have better films? Who knows.

            http://filmchatblog.blogspot.com/2005/05/why-i-do-not-consider-star-wars.html


            --
            Matthew Winslow
            mwinslow@...
            www.xreal.org

            Currently Reading: I, Jedi by Michael Stackpole
          • David Bratman
            ... Evidently this explains the Ewok-romp that was Return of the Jedi, but it doesn t explain Phantom Menace (and, as far as I can tell, its successors
            Message 5 of 13 , May 28 11:40 AM
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              At 08:26 AM 5/28/2005 -0700, Matthew Winslow wrote:

              >a film-critic friend of mine has
              >posted some interesting quotes from Lucas from the time of the making
              >of Empire. From these quotes, it sounds more like Lucas caved in to
              >popularity and what he believed made a fun movie, rather than sticking
              >to his story as he originally conceived it. Had he done so, would we
              >have better films? Who knows.

              Evidently this explains the Ewok-romp that was "Return of the Jedi," but it
              doesn't explain "Phantom Menace" (and, as far as I can tell, its successors
              which are in the same vein), which falls into the exact opposite error:
              entirely pompous and no fun at all unless you're an auto-racing fan.

              The quotes don't verify, but do tend to confirm, my original guess: that
              Lucas didn't originally know that Vader was Luke's father any more than
              Luke did.

              David Bratman
            • Hugh Davis
              ... It might explain them in the sense that Lucas gave way to what he thought was fun and popular instead of well-considered. When Phantom Menace was released,
              Message 6 of 13 , May 28 11:51 AM
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                >From: David Bratman <dbratman@...>
                >Evidently this explains the Ewok-romp that was "Return of the Jedi," but it
                >doesn't explain "Phantom Menace" (and, as far as I can tell, its successors
                >which are in the same vein), which falls into the exact opposite error:
                >entirely pompous and no fun at all unless you're an auto-racing fan.

                It might explain them in the sense that Lucas gave way to what he thought
                was fun and popular instead of well-considered. When Phantom Menace was
                released, many compared the pod-racing with Quidditch games from Harry
                Potter--perhaps Lucas thought he had found something similar to those, and
                that is why he went for that part of the spectable.
                >
                >The quotes don't verify, but do tend to confirm, my original guess: that
                >Lucas didn't originally know that Vader was Luke's father any more than
                >Luke did.

                David I think you are right about this. Personally, the idea that the
                student turned on the teacher is a more expected archetype, and I think that
                was his actual plan.

                Hugh
              • David Bratman
                But Hugh, that may explain the drag, um, pod racing scene, but it doesn t explain the rest of the movie. Exciting? No it s _not_. It s dull. Dull. _Dull._
                Message 7 of 13 , May 28 12:47 PM
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                  But Hugh, that may explain the drag, um, pod racing scene, but it doesn't
                  explain the rest of the movie.

                  "Exciting? No it's _not_. It's dull. Dull. _Dull._ My God it's dull,
                  it's so desperately dull and tedious and stuffy and boring and
                  des-per-ate-ly DULL." - Monty Python
                • Hugh Davis
                  Fair enough--I m not trying to defend it, by any means.
                  Message 8 of 13 , May 28 12:59 PM
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                    Fair enough--I'm not trying to defend it, by any means.

                    >From: David Bratman <dbratman@...>
                    >Reply-To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                    >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                    >Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Revenge of the Sith and the Jedi
                    >Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 12:47:33 -0700
                    >
                    >But Hugh, that may explain the drag, um, pod racing scene, but it doesn't
                    >explain the rest of the movie.
                    >
                    >"Exciting? No it's _not_. It's dull. Dull. _Dull._ My God it's dull,
                    >it's so desperately dull and tedious and stuffy and boring and
                    >des-per-ate-ly DULL." - Monty Python
                    >
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