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RE: [mythsoc] Tolkien on Film: critique (long)

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  • Croft, Janet B.
    (long post in reply to a long post, which I leave in full at the end for reference) What I find especially interesting is that a history professor recently
    Message 1 of 14 , May 27 2:43 PM
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      (long post in reply to a long post, which I leave in full at the end for
      reference)

      What I find especially interesting is that a history professor recently
      told me he felt this was the best essay in the book! Maybe it depends
      on your perspective on the idea of Empire -- as someone who's very
      knowledgable about both Alexander the Great and Winston Churchill,
      perhaps his concept of "empire" is different. (Perhaps it's also
      because he DID like the movies.) Though Smyth didn't cite Niall
      Ferguson's _Empire_, the concept of empire as a generally positive
      influence on history was in the air in the months after 9/11 and I think
      may have influenced the topic of this essay.

      Anyway, I don't think Smyth was totally off in seeing something of an
      ambivalent nostalgia for "empire" in Tolkien's work, though in his
      letters he seemed to feel the ideal government to live under would be
      that of the Shire -- close to anarchy in the "minimal or no government"
      rather than chaotic sense -- except fallen man cannot be trusted to live
      in such an edenic state. In The Lord of the Rings, the various elvish
      enclaves in Middle-earth report to no central authority. And under
      Aragron's rule as King of Gondor there is a fair amount of local
      autonomy -- the Shire and Fangorn Forest are mentioned as places where
      he does not interfere in local rule, and there are princes in Dol Amroth
      and Ithilien and a king in Rohan. But the older history of
      Middle-earth, especially as seen in the Silmarillion (which Tolkien
      began writing while he was defending the British empire in the
      trenches), is full of great empires and their rise and fall, their
      inherent strengths and weaknesses. (I am not the Silmarillion expert
      many Mythies are, though, and I am willing to defer to their knowledge
      if my impression is wrong.)

      I think Smyth's discussion of the theme of imperial ambivalence in
      British film is fascinating. However, you may be right that the author
      did conflate Jackson's and Tolkien's views more than they should have
      been. Jackson's film is more approving of imperial rule precisely
      because he doesn't have time to go into the back-history and local
      issues of government in Middle-earth; there was no room for such
      subtlety. You talk about the "essence" of the story, but remember,
      Tolkien felt he was writing "feigned history," whatever the underlying
      spiritual themes might be, so we can't entirely discount the surface
      themes dealing with right government. I feel Aragorn can be an
      archetype, a historical figure, and a commentary on (real) historical
      kingship all at the same time -- a work as rich as The Lord of the Rings
      can be read on all these levels. On the other hand, I hate to see The
      Lord of the Rings reduced to a justification for a particular political
      view, though I think it can inform one's own political thinking.

      But this is great -- I'm glad to see a discussion of some of these
      essays, after living with them so intensely as editor! And I see Katie
      Glick just posted something, but I'm not going to read it till I post
      this.

      Janet Brennan Croft
      ----------------------------------------
      "A far more serious attack on the fairy tale as children's literature
      comes from those who do no wish children to be frightened. ...Since it
      is so likely that they will meet cruel enemies, let them at least have
      heard of brave knights and heroic courage. Otherwise you are making
      their destiny not brighter but darker." C.S. Lewis, "On Three Ways of
      Writing for Children"

      -----Original Message-----
      From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      Of saraciborski
      Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 11:14 AM
      To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [mythsoc] Tolkien on Film: critique

      Does anyone else find the article in Tolkien on Film, "Three Ages of
      Imperial Cinema" by J.E. Smyth so dreadful as to be offensive?

      He argues his thesis, that the LR films represent a return of "the
      old-fashioned imperial film," through what seems to me a series of
      slippery moves, unjustified parallels, murky linkages and incorrect
      statements. For example, he says that Tolkien "transformed Britain's
      years of imperial decay into the saga of Middle-earth" in his creation
      of the history of Elves and Men who were "possessors of an enormous
      empire approximating the size of Europe and Russia." It is this kind of
      statement-a mix of misinterpretation (of Tolkien's inspiration and
      sources) and fact (the size of the empire)-on which he builds his case.

      In one long, bizarre paragraph he conflates Britain's dethronement in
      Egypt (1955), war as depicted in TT as reviewed by C.S. Lewis, the
      "decline of the Elvish and Numenorian Empires," Aragorn's coronation,
      and the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks. I won't take the space to
      show how he manages this-you can read it on page 19.

      The Jackson films, he says, "have remade memories of Western imperialism
      as the only honorable alternative to an evil Eastern Empire." Further,
      "The Lord of the Rings looks upon imperial decay with nostalgia and
      regret....Tolkien and Jackson's solution was Return of the King and the
      coronation of Aragorn in the white imperial city of Gondor." And he ends
      by asking, Are they (Tolkien and Jackson) posing the solution as the
      "the only certain defense against Eastern terrorism?"

      I am quite sure that Jackson, whose primary motivation in making the
      films was to make money, doesn't deserve this imputation of political
      motives. (And I suspect he does not subscribe to the simplistic evil-
      East-good West ideology in any case) Be that as it may, Smyth mixes up
      Jackson and Tolkien (just as David Bratman predicted would happen) and
      makes Tolkien responsible for the film's imperialist message, saying in
      an earlier passage that the "the real creator [of what?] is of course
      J.R.R. Tolkien."

      What most bothers me always about any attempt to link LR (book or
      film) with real politics, however, is that it misses the essence: if
      Aragorn's achievement of kingship refers to anything beyond the story
      itself, it is the archetypal and universal human journey, the
      individual's struggle for meaningful, authentic self-realization.

      I find the thesis and the logic of this article preposterous. Or am I
      missing some redeeming aspect? Tolkien on Film contains several articles
      that I disagree with sharply, but on the whole it's a great book. I just
      wish it didn't open with Smyth.

      Should this be labelled "long post"? Sorry.
      Sara Ciborski





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    • Carl F. Hostetter
      ... I ll throw out that what little I ve learned of Hillaire Belloc s ideas on a sort of Catholic Neo-Feudalism leads me to suspect it might be a very fruitful
      Message 2 of 14 , May 27 3:01 PM
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        On May 27, 2005, at 5:43 PM, Croft, Janet B. wrote:

        > Anyway, I don't think Smyth was totally off in seeing something of
        > an ambivalent nostalgia for "empire" in Tolkien's work, though in
        > his letters he seemed to feel the ideal government to live under
        > would be that of the Shire

        I'll throw out that what little I've learned of Hillaire Belloc's
        ideas on a sort of Catholic Neo-Feudalism leads me to suspect it
        might be a very fruitful place to look for parallels with Tolkien's
        own Monarchist thoughts. I do know that Tolkien was an admirer of
        Belloc, as, for example, he enthusiastically presented his son
        Michael with copies of a number of Belloc's works.
      • Stolzi
        ... From: Croft, Janet B. ... If memory serves, Rohan is an independent kingdom which is, by long custom, allied to Gondor - not under
        Message 3 of 14 , May 27 4:34 PM
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          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Croft, Janet B." <jbcroft@...>
          >
          > the various elvish
          > enclaves in Middle-earth report to no central authority. And under
          > Aragron's rule as King of Gondor there is a fair amount of local
          > autonomy -- the Shire and Fangorn Forest are mentioned as places where
          > he does not interfere in local rule, and there are princes in Dol Amroth
          > and Ithilien and a king in Rohan.

          If memory serves, Rohan is an independent kingdom which is, by long custom,
          allied to Gondor - not under Gondor's rule, even after the Return of the
          King.

          Diamond Proudbrook
        • Sara Ciborski
          ... From: Croft, Janet B. To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 5:43 PM Subject: RE: [mythsoc] Tolkien on Film: critique (long) What I find
          Message 4 of 14 , May 28 8:10 AM
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            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Croft, Janet B.
            To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 5:43 PM
            Subject: RE: [mythsoc] Tolkien on Film: critique (long)

            What I find especially interesting is that a history professor recently
            told me he felt this was the best essay in the book! Maybe it depends
            on your perspective on the idea of Empire -- as someone who's very
            knowledgable about both Alexander the Great and Winston Churchill,
            perhaps his concept of "empire" is different. (Perhaps it's also
            because he DID like the movies.)

            Well, regardless of one's concept of "empire," Smyth's conclusions are untenable (and therefore the essay is not the best in the book) because he bases them on demonstrable misinterpretations, distortions and shifty parallels. For example, he says in his concluding paragraph, "In 1915, as Tolkien lost faith in history, he imagined a great age of imperialism, glorious fallen empires, and rising imperial threats." The content of T's early writings has little to do with imperialism and empires. The presence of the Elves on Middle-earth in the First Age was not an empire but a diaspora; their kingdoms and settlements were autonomous enclaves; there was no central government. The Second Age Numenoreans might possible qualify as imperialistic, but Tolkien didn't conceive and elaborate their history until much, much later than 1915, if I recall correctly from my reading of The History of Middle-Earth. In any case, he portrays it as falling into extreme decadence (i.e. his attitude toward it was not positive).

            Anyway, I don't think Smyth was totally off in seeing something of an
            ambivalent nostalgia for "empire" in Tolkien's work....

            I think that Tolkien's views on empire, whatever they may have been, cannot be deduced from a careful reading of The Lord of the Rings or The Silmarillion. The nostalgia expressed by Elves in LotR is not for empire, but for the diminishing creative power of the three elven rings, for access to Valinor and the former closeness to the Valar (as spiritual sources of all that is good, true and beautiful), for the beauty and freshness of Middle-earth now besmirched by Sauron-wrought evils of various kinds, and so forth.

            ...the older history of Middle-earth, especially as seen in the Silmarillion (which Tolkien
            began writing while he was defending the British empire in the
            trenches), is full of great empires and their rise and fall, their
            inherent strengths and weaknesses.

            As said above, Tolkien's writings on the Second Age came later, not during WWI or its aftermath. The First Age tales...well Gondolin was a kind of small empire, but certainly not an imperialistic one. Likewise Doriath. Both Turgon and Thingol went to great lengths to avoid contact with other peoples. I just don't see how this history can be characterized as a projection of views about imperialism.

            I think Smyth's discussion of the theme of imperial ambivalence in
            British film is fascinating.

            I agree; I did find those parts interesting, though I am not sure I trust his scholarship, given his distortions and misreadings of Tolkien (and of Jackson).

            You talk about the "essence" of the story, but remember,
            Tolkien felt he was writing "feigned history," whatever the underlying
            spiritual themes might be, so we can't entirely discount the surface
            themes dealing with right government. I feel Aragorn can be an
            archetype, a historical figure, and a commentary on (real) historical
            kingship all at the same time -- a work as rich as The Lord of the Rings
            can be read on all these levels. On the other hand, I hate to see The
            Lord of the Rings reduced to a justification for a particular political
            view, though I think it can inform one's own political thinking.

            Yes, the reductionism is what I get incensed about. I am about two thirds through with Matthew Dickerson's wonderful book, "Following Gandalf," and his insights have some relevance to my main point and source of distress with Smyth's essay. LotR is about the power of moral rather than military victory. It speaks to questions of human freedom and creativity, death and loss, free will and responsibility, individual moral choice and moral courage, and the spiritual origins and capacities of the human being.

            In extracting from both book and film some bare facts (that battles are fought, evil overcome, empire ((not really)) established) Smyth obscures, not to say obliterates all this "speaking" of the book. Millions of people from different walks of life, conditions, classes, races, nationalities find this book speaks to them. It isn't and it cannot be because it offers views about western empire as a bulwark against evil.

            I don't mean to rant. It's wonderful to be able to expound one's views this way.

            Sara Ciborski






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          • Beth Russell
            There is a very good essay in the new Tolkien Studies about Tolkien and empire, showing a relationship between Rome and Gondor. (Book is at home and I don t
            Message 5 of 14 , May 28 9:05 AM
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              There is a very good essay in the new "Tolkien Studies" about Tolkien
              and empire, showing a relationship between Rome and Gondor. (Book is at
              home and I don't remember title or author.)

              Tolkien may have preferred the simple government of the Shire -- but the
              Shire had to be protected by the last remnant of the Northern Kingdom.
              As Butterbur said, when the Rangers went away all kinds of baddies came
              in quick.

              I felt the Smith essay to be an expression of the self-loathing
              fashionable in the West for too many years. The categories were
              interesting, but the basic premise is worn out. Pax Romana. Pax
              Brittanica. Pax Americana. Those empires were not ideal. But the
              alternative is even less desirable. I lived through the final decay of
              the British Empire in Africa. Ugly. Very many parallels to early
              medieval times.

              Sigh . . .

              Beth





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            • David Bratman
              ... Responding to you rather than to Smyth (since I don t follow her arguments) - there s a serious danger of confusion here between Tolkien s real-life
              Message 6 of 14 , May 28 11:40 AM
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                At 04:43 PM 5/27/2005 -0500, Croft, Janet B. wrote:

                >Anyway, I don't think Smyth was totally off in seeing something of an
                >ambivalent nostalgia for "empire" in Tolkien's work, though in his
                >letters he seemed to feel the ideal government to live under would be
                >that of the Shire -- close to anarchy in the "minimal or no government"
                >rather than chaotic sense

                Responding to you rather than to Smyth (since I don't follow her arguments)
                - there's a serious danger of confusion here between Tolkien's real-life
                political beliefs and what he expresses in his fiction. In Middle-earth
                there is a True King. In the primary world there isn't. That makes all
                the difference. It is furthermore jumping to precarious conclusions to
                assume that the ramifications of the set-up in Middle-earth are those
                Tolkien would have liked in the primary world even though he acknowledged
                them to be impossible.

                What Tolkien said in his letter to Christopher (29/11/43) was that he
                preferred minimalist anarchy or "unconstitutional" monarchy. What he's
                opposing both of these to is what he calls "Theyocracy," the assumption of
                power by large bureaucratic party-oriented governments, which is pretty
                much required in any empire that's not a pure personal rule of an emperor.
                In many other places he denounces the rising power of the state: in these
                respects he was an old-fashioned conservative. (What he would have thought
                of an emperor is probably well contained in an interview comment that
                [quasi-quote] "tipping your hat to squire may be damn bad for squire but
                it's damn good for you.")

                None of this really fits in with a nostalgia for the British Empire, and in
                every respect Tolkien was a small-England man. In his next letter to
                Christopher (9/12/43), he writes, "I love England (not Great Britain and
                certainly not the British Commonwealth (grr!))". Commonwealth was still a
                very new term then, and he says nothing about empire. But the rest of the
                letter is a denunciation of the growing uniformity of the world from a man
                who always thought individual places should be as distinct as possible -
                that's the point of there being different places.

                That belief is certainly reflected all through his fiction. And if it's to
                be seen in Fourth Age politics, it's in Elessar leaving his realms to
                govern themselves as much as possible. His predecessors had actually ceded
                Rohan; it was a separate country bound by treaty (not merely by friendship)
                with Gondor. His grant of total autonomy to the Shire is recognition of
                the situation that had held since the North-kingdom ended a thousand years
                earlier.

                >But the older history of
                >Middle-earth, especially as seen in the Silmarillion (which Tolkien
                >began writing while he was defending the British empire in the
                >trenches), is full of great empires and their rise and fall, their
                >inherent strengths and weaknesses.

                It's about major pitched war, yes, and tightly-held kingdoms, but there are
                no empires except Morgoth's. Fingolfin and Fingon as High Kings of the
                Noldor lead by example and persuasion, not by imperial power, and kings
                like Turgon and Thingol, and even Finrod, not to mention the sons of
                Feanor, have their own, often conflicting, agendas. As Sara writes, "The
                presence of the Elves on Middle-earth in the First Age was not an empire
                but a diaspora; their kingdoms and settlements were autonomous enclaves;
                there was no central government." The last part is not strictly true, but
                it's close enough.

                She also mentions the Numenorean empire, which Tolkien didn't even invent
                until the mid 1930s, and didn't fully explore until the 1950s, and about
                which he had in any case highly ambiguous feelings: see "Aldarion and Erendis."

                Sara also writes:

                > Yes, the reductionism is what I get incensed about. ...
                > In extracting from both book and film some bare facts (that battles are
                >fought, evil overcome, empire ((not really)) established) Smyth obscures,
                >not to say obliterates all this "speaking" of the book. Millions of people
                >from different walks of life, conditions, classes, races, nationalities find
                >this book speaks to them. It isn't and it cannot be because it offers views
                >about western empire as a bulwark against evil.

                What incenses me in this area is the point of view expressed by John West
                and Peter Kreeft in _Celebrating Middle-earth_ (a book from the same people
                who brought us _Untangling Tolkien_). They take the view that the moral
                lesson of LOTR is that evil is real and must be fought. It seems to me
                that Tolkien takes that for granted: propitiating evil is rejected out of
                hand and appeasing it is never even considered; the weakness of the good is
                faitheartedness (it is this which Denethor and, initially, Theoden, suffer
                from).

                No, the real moral lesson of LOTR is to avoid the arrogance of power. Take
                care that you do not become evil in your eagerness to fight it. This is
                what Boromir fails to grasp; this is the test that Galadriel passes. Even
                Saruman, the prime propitiator, is really suffering from arrogance.

                For this reason, I conclude that the moral application of LOTR to the
                current world situation is pretty much the opposite of what West and Kreeft
                think it is.

                David Bratman
              • saraciborski
                I am resending this--it s an exact repeat--because I see that my earlier post doesn t have the little quote marks on the margins that enable a reader to
                Message 7 of 14 , May 29 8:09 AM
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                  I am resending this--it's an exact repeat--because I see that my
                  earlier post doesn't have the little quote marks on the margins that
                  enable a reader to distinguish between what's being quoted from
                  someone else's message and what is being said anew. {Maybe because I
                  sent it from within my e-mail program???) Anyway I resend it properly
                  now only so it's in the archive in a readable form--responses have
                  already been made.

                  --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Croft, Janet B." <jbcroft@o...>
                  wrote:
                  > What I find especially interesting is that a history professor
                  >recently told me he felt this was the best essay in the book! Maybe
                  >it depends on your perspective on the idea of Empire -- as someone
                  >who's very knowledgable about both Alexander the Great and Winston
                  >Churchill, perhaps his concept of "empire" is different. (Perhaps
                  >it's also because he DID like the movies.) ....

                  Well, regardless of one's concept of "empire," Smyth's conclusions
                  are untenable (and therefore the essay is not the best in the book)
                  because he bases them on demonstrable misinterpretations, distortions
                  and shifty parallels. For example, he says in his concluding
                  paragraph, "In 1915, as Tolkien lost faith in history, he imagined a
                  great age of imperialism, glorious fallen empires, and rising
                  imperial threats." The content of T's early writings has little to do
                  with imperialism and empires. The presence of the Elves on Middle-
                  earth in the First Age was not an empire but a diaspora; their
                  kingdoms and settlements were autonomous enclaves; there was no
                  central government. The Second Age Numenoreans might possible qualify
                  as imperialistic, but Tolkien didn't conceive and elaborate their
                  history until much, much later than 1915, if I recall correctly from
                  my reading of The History of Middle-Earth. In any case, he portrays
                  it as falling into extreme decadence (i.e. his attitude toward it was
                  not positive).

                  > Anyway, I don't think Smyth was totally off in seeing something of
                  >an ambivalent nostalgia for "empire" in Tolkien's work....

                  I think that Tolkien's views on empire, whatever they may have been,
                  cannot be deduced from a careful reading of The Lord of the Rings or
                  The Silmarillion. The nostalgia expressed by Elves in LotR is not for
                  empire, but for the diminishing creative power of the three elven
                  rings, for access to Valinor and the former closeness to the Valar
                  (as spiritual sources of all that is good, true and beautiful), for
                  the beauty and freshness of Middle-earth now besmirched by Sauron-
                  wrought evils of various kinds, and so forth.

                  > But the older history of Middle-earth, especially as seen in the
                  Silmarillion (which Tolkien
                  > began writing while he was defending the British empire in the
                  > trenches), is full of great empires and their rise and fall, their
                  > inherent strengths and weaknesses.

                  As said above, Tolkien's writings on the Second Age came later, not
                  during WWI or its aftermath. The First Age tales...well Gondolin was
                  a kind of small empire, but certainly not an imperialistic one.
                  Likewise Doriath. Both Turgon and Thingol went to great lengths to
                  avoid contact with other peoples. I just don't see how this history
                  can be characterized as a projection of views about imperialism.

                  > I think Smyth's discussion of the theme of imperial ambivalence in
                  > British film is fascinating.

                  I agree; I did find those parts interesting, though I am not sure I
                  trust his scholarship, given his distortions and misreadings of
                  Tolkien (and of Jackson).

                  >You talk about the "essence" of the story, but remember,
                  > Tolkien felt he was writing "feigned history," whatever the
                  >underlying spiritual themes might be, so we can't entirely discount
                  >the surface themes dealing with right government. I feel Aragorn can
                  >be an archetype, a historical figure, and a commentary on (real)
                  >historical
                  > kingship all at the same time -- a work as rich as The Lord of the
                  Rings
                  > can be read on all these levels. On the other hand, I hate to see
                  The
                  > Lord of the Rings reduced to a justification for a particular
                  political
                  > view, though I think it can inform one's own political thinking.
                  >
                  Yes, the reductionism is what I get incensed about. I am about two
                  thirds through with Matthew Dickerson's wonderful book, "Following
                  Gandalf," and his insights have some relevance to my main point and
                  source of distress with Smyth's essay. LotR is about the power of
                  moral rather than military victory. It speaks to questions of human
                  freedom and creativity, death and loss, free will and responsibility,
                  individual moral choice and moral courage, and the spiritual origins
                  and capacities of the human being.
                  In extracting from both book and film some bare facts (that battles
                  are fought, evil overcome, empire ((not really)) established) Smyth
                  obscures, not to say obliterates all this "speaking" of the book.
                  Millions of people from different walks of life, conditions, classes,
                  races, nationalities find this book speaks to them. It isn't and it
                  cannot be because it offers views about western empire as a bulwark
                  against evil.

                  I don't mean to rant. It's wonderful to be able to expound one's
                  views this way.

                  Sara Ciborski
                • Beth Russell
                  Two articles in the new Vol II of Tolkien Studies is relevant to the whole issue of empire and colonization: Ford, Judy Ann. The White City: The Lord of
                  Message 8 of 14 , May 31 9:58 AM
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                    Two articles in the new Vol II of "Tolkien Studies" is relevant to the
                    whole issue of empire and colonization:

                    Ford, Judy Ann. "The White City: The Lord of the Rings as an Early
                    Medieval Myth of the Restoration of the Roman Empire." 2: 53-73.

                    Hoiem, Elizabeth Massa. "World Creation as Colonization: British
                    Imperialism in "Aldarion and Erendis." 2: 75-92.

                    Cheers,

                    Beth
                  • saraciborski
                    ... What is and where does one find Tolkien Studies ? I recall seeing something about this (a new journal?) among the posts I scanned before I recently
                    Message 9 of 14 , May 31 5:15 PM
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                      --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Beth Russell" <russells@s...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Two articles in the new Vol II of "Tolkien Studies" is relevant to the
                      > whole issue of empire and colonization:
                      >
                      > Ford, Judy Ann. "The White City: The Lord of the Rings as an Early
                      > Medieval Myth of the Restoration of the Roman Empire." 2: 53-73.
                      >
                      > Hoiem, Elizabeth Massa. "World Creation as Colonization: British
                      > Imperialism in "Aldarion and Erendis." 2: 75-92.
                      >
                      > Cheers,
                      >
                      > Beth

                      What is and where does one find "Tolkien Studies"? I recall seeing
                      something about this (a new journal?) among the posts I scanned before
                      I recently joined. If someone has a quick answer--I'd be grateful.
                      Otherwise I'll look it up on the web.
                      Thanks,
                      Sara Ciborski
                    • David Bratman
                      Tolkien Studies is an annual journal/review whose second issue has just appeared. If you click on , that should take you through to
                      Message 10 of 14 , May 31 6:00 PM
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                        Tolkien Studies is an annual journal/review whose second issue has just
                        appeared. If you click on <http://tolkienstudies.org>, that should take
                        you through to the page for the new issue on the website of the publisher
                        (West Virginia University Press). As a hardcover annual scholarly journal,
                        it is alas rather expensive, but those of us who have something to do with
                        it hope that readers will find the material interesting.


                        At 12:15 AM 6/1/2005 +0000, Sara Ciborski wrote:
                        >What is and where does one find "Tolkien Studies"? I recall seeing
                        >something about this (a new journal?) among the posts I scanned before
                        >I recently joined. If someone has a quick answer--I'd be grateful.
                      • Croft, Janet B.
                        Sara, if you re connected to a university or college library that gets the database Project Muse, you can get Tolkien Studies online. Janet Brennan Croft ...
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jun 1, 2005
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                          Sara, if you're connected to a university or college library that gets
                          the database Project Muse, you can get Tolkien Studies online.


                          Janet Brennan Croft

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                          Of saraciborski
                          Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 7:15 PM
                          To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [mythsoc] Re: empire, etc. and "Tolkien Studies"

                          --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Beth Russell" <russells@s...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Two articles in the new Vol II of "Tolkien Studies" is relevant to the

                          > whole issue of empire and colonization:
                          >
                          > Ford, Judy Ann. "The White City: The Lord of the Rings as an Early
                          > Medieval Myth of the Restoration of the Roman Empire." 2: 53-73.
                          >
                          > Hoiem, Elizabeth Massa. "World Creation as Colonization: British
                          > Imperialism in "Aldarion and Erendis." 2: 75-92.
                          >
                          > Cheers,
                          >
                          > Beth

                          What is and where does one find "Tolkien Studies"? I recall seeing
                          something about this (a new journal?) among the posts I scanned before I
                          recently joined. If someone has a quick answer--I'd be grateful.
                          Otherwise I'll look it up on the web.
                          Thanks,
                          Sara Ciborski





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                          Links
                        • saraciborski
                          ... just ... take ... publisher ... journal, ... do with ... before
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jun 1, 2005
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                            --- Thank you!


                            In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, David Bratman <dbratman@e...> wrote:
                            > Tolkien Studies is an annual journal/review whose second issue has
                            just
                            > appeared. If you click on <http://tolkienstudies.org>, that should
                            take
                            > you through to the page for the new issue on the website of the
                            publisher
                            > (West Virginia University Press). As a hardcover annual scholarly
                            journal,
                            > it is alas rather expensive, but those of us who have something to
                            do with
                            > it hope that readers will find the material interesting.
                            >
                            >
                            > At 12:15 AM 6/1/2005 +0000, Sara Ciborski wrote:
                            > >What is and where does one find "Tolkien Studies"? I recall seeing
                            > >something about this (a new journal?) among the posts I scanned
                            before
                            > >I recently joined. If someone has a quick answer--I'd be grateful.
                          • saraciborski
                            ... university--I ll see if she can do something for me. Thanks. ... gets ... ~-- ... ~-
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jun 1, 2005
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                              --- I'm not, currently, but my daughter is a librarian at a
                              university--I'll see if she can do something for me. Thanks.



                              In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Croft, Janet B." <jbcroft@o...> wrote:
                              > Sara, if you're connected to a university or college library that
                              gets
                              > the database Project Muse, you can get Tolkien Studies online.
                              >
                              >
                              > Janet Brennan Croft
                              >
                              > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------
                              ~-->
                              > What would our lives be like without music, dance, and theater?
                              > Donate or volunteer in the arts today at Network for Good!
                              > http://us.click.yahoo.com/pkgkPB/SOnJAA/Zx0JAA/DtIolB/TM
                              > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                              ~->
                              >
                              > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org Yahoo! Groups
                              > Links
                            • Mike Foster
                              I recall reading a C.S. Lewis remark/quote to the effect that one benefit of a career as a teacher is that it gave him so many friends who were younger than he
                              Message 14 of 14 , Jun 1, 2005
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                                I recall reading a C.S. Lewis remark/quote to the effect that one
                                benefit of a career as a teacher is that it gave him so many friends who
                                were younger than he was.

                                Please, can anyone place this quote with a cite? I thought it was in
                                Jack but if it, so far it's been elusive.

                                Thanks for any help,
                                Mike

                                David Bratman wrote:

                                >Tolkien Studies is an annual journal/review whose second issue has just
                                >appeared. If you click on <http://tolkienstudies.org>, that should take
                                >you through to the page for the new issue on the website of the publisher
                                >(West Virginia University Press). As a hardcover annual scholarly journal,
                                >it is alas rather expensive, but those of us who have something to do with
                                >it hope that readers will find the material interesting.
                                >
                                >
                                >At 12:15 AM 6/1/2005 +0000, Sara Ciborski wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                >>What is and where does one find "Tolkien Studies"? I recall seeing
                                >>something about this (a new journal?) among the posts I scanned before
                                >>I recently joined. If someone has a quick answer--I'd be grateful.
                                >>
                                >>
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >


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