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Re: [mythsoc] American Northernness

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  • David Bratman
    ... Tolkien wasn t intending a mythos for the melting pot. He was intending one for his people, the English. That others have enjoyed it is wonderful, but it
    Message 1 of 14 , May 4, 2005
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      At 04:51 PM 5/4/2005 -0400, Lizzie wrote:

      >Hm, yes, in the case of Tolkien, the Anglo invaders became the dominant
      >force, as the Europeans did here, and he was recreating a mythos for that
      >people, the way one might make one for the "melting pot."

      Tolkien wasn't intending a mythos for the melting pot. He was intending
      one for his people, the English. That others have enjoyed it is wonderful,
      but it wasn't his original intent back in 1916.

      >But I'd rather
      >hear about the Celts and the Native Americans.

      Don't look to Tolkien for either of those (except a little Welsh linguistic
      influence in Sindarin). He was rather put out at an early reader's
      description of the Silmarillion's "eye-splitting Celtic names." He
      replied, "Needless to say [the names] are not Celtic! Neither are the
      tales. I do know Celtic things (many in their original languages Irish and
      Welsh), and feel for them a certain distate," and he goes on to explain why
      (Letters p. 26). At another time he said his aim was to achieve "the fair
      elusive beauty that some call Celtic, though it is rarely found in genuine
      ancient Celtic things." (Letters p. 144)

      David Bratman
    • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
      OK OK never mind. If anyone is interested in discussing how the idea COULD be done instead of how it could NOT be done, I ll see you on DisaffectedMythies.
      Message 2 of 14 , May 5, 2005
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        OK OK never mind. If anyone is interested in discussing how the idea COULD
        be done instead of how it could NOT be done, I'll see you on
        DisaffectedMythies. Tolkien was a wonderful, wonderful genius, but I have
        to hope that there will be others of his stature.

        thanks,

        Lizzie

        Elizabeth Apgar Triano
        lizziewriter@...
        amor vincit omnia
        www.lizziewriter.com
        www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org
      • Croft, Janet B.
        Well, I could see a mythology related more to a place than a people, which might be appropriate for a primarily immigrant population like that of North
        Message 3 of 14 , May 5, 2005
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          Well, I could see a mythology related more to a place than a people,
          which might be appropriate for a primarily immigrant population like
          that of North America. As a nation we don't have a unified mythology of
          "a people" to call on, but we do have concepts like "the West" or "the
          Frontier" or "the Colonies", more tied to a place than a people. So why
          not "the Great White North" -- and there probably is a mythos of sorts
          out there, since the phrase exists -- maybe Canadian and not as familiar
          to us south of the border. I think Orson Scott Card's Alvin Maker
          series might have touched on this, as well as Neil Gaiman's "American
          Gods", but it's been too long since I've read either. And IIRC Kim
          Stanly Robinson's Mars trilogy had some speculation on mythology of
          place for Mars, drawing on Bradbury.


          Janet Brennan Croft

          -----Original Message-----
          From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          Of Elizabeth Apgar Triano
          Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 8:09 AM
          To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [mythsoc] American Northernness

          OK OK never mind. If anyone is interested in discussing how the idea
          COULD be done instead of how it could NOT be done, I'll see you on
          DisaffectedMythies. Tolkien was a wonderful, wonderful genius, but I
          have to hope that there will be others of his stature.

          thanks,

          Lizzie

          Elizabeth Apgar Triano
          lizziewriter@...
          amor vincit omnia
          www.lizziewriter.com
          www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org






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        • alexeik@aol.com
          In a message dated 5/5/5 7:45:30 PM, Lizzie wrote:
          Message 4 of 14 , May 5, 2005
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            In a message dated 5/5/5 7:45:30 PM, Lizzie wrote:

            <<OK OK never mind. If anyone is interested in discussing how the idea COULD
            be done instead of how it could NOT be done, >>

            Actually, someone who *is* doing it is Orson Scott Card, in his "Alvin Maker"
            series. He's doing it not by cannibalising the mythologies of culturally
            alien Native peoples but by imagining an alternative America in which the great
            themes that have been perceived (and given mythic resonance) in accounts of
            American history are articulated in a different way that highlights their value as
            myth.
            Alexei
          • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
            Splendid! Thank you, Alexei! I think I read one of those books early on, or a short story, and I always meant to get back to them. Orson Scott Card is a
            Message 5 of 14 , May 6, 2005
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              Splendid! Thank you, Alexei! I think I read one of those books early on,
              or a short story, and I always meant to get back to them. Orson Scott Card
              is a master storyteller isn't he? What's his background?

              Lizzie

              Elizabeth Apgar Triano
              lizziewriter@...
              amor vincit omnia
              www.lizziewriter.com
              www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org


              > [Original Message]
              > From: <alexeik@...>
              > To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
              > Date: 5/5/2005 4:04:31 PM
              > Subject: Re: Re: [mythsoc] American Northernness
              >
              >
              > In a message dated 5/5/5 7:45:30 PM, Lizzie wrote:
              >
              > <<OK OK never mind. If anyone is interested in discussing how the idea
              COULD
              > be done instead of how it could NOT be done, >>
              >
              > Actually, someone who *is* doing it is Orson Scott Card, in his "Alvin
              Maker"
              > series. He's doing it not by cannibalising the mythologies of culturally
              > alien Native peoples but by imagining an alternative America in which the
              great
              > themes that have been perceived (and given mythic resonance) in accounts
              of
              > American history are articulated in a different way that highlights their
              value as
              > myth.
              > Alexei
              >
            • Stolzi
              ... From: Elizabeth Apgar Triano ... Card ... Mormon (Latter Day Saints) - a church very focused upon events on the N. American
              Message 6 of 14 , May 6, 2005
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                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Elizabeth Apgar Triano" <lizziewriter@...>


                > Splendid! Thank you, Alexei! I think I read one of those books early on,
                > or a short story, and I always meant to get back to them. Orson Scott
                Card
                > is a master storyteller isn't he? What's his background?


                Mormon (Latter Day Saints) - a church very focused upon events on the N.
                American continent.

                Diamond Proudbrook
              • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                OK. Does he have a profession other than writer-of-stories I guess should have been my question. Although yes that is a relevant answer, certes. I am
                Message 7 of 14 , May 6, 2005
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                  OK. Does he have a profession other than writer-of-stories I guess should
                  have been my question. Although yes that is a relevant answer, certes. I
                  am thinking, like, David Brin (physicist), Isaac Asimov (some kind of
                  sciencey background), C.S. Friedman (stage costuming, etc.), J.R.R. Tolkien
                  (philologist).

                  Lizzie

                  Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                  lizziewriter@...
                  amor vincit omnia
                  www.lizziewriter.com
                  www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org
                  >
                  > Mormon (Latter Day Saints) - a church very focused upon events on the N.
                  > American continent.
                  >
                  > Diamond Proudbrook
                  >
                  >
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