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Re: [mythsoc] American Northernness

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  • WendellWag@aol.com
    In a message dated 5/4/2005 11:19:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, lizziewriter@earthlink.net writes: Hm, yes, in the case of Tolkien, the Anglo invaders became
    Message 1 of 14 , May 4 8:28 PM
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      In a message dated 5/4/2005 11:19:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
      lizziewriter@... writes:

      Hm, yes, in the case of Tolkien, the Anglo invaders became the dominant
      force, as the Europeans did here, and he was recreating a mythos for that
      people, the way one might make one for the "melting pot."


      The point is that Tolkien was at least partly descended from the peoples
      whose mythology he was trying to recreate. Most English people, with the
      exception of those whose ancestors obviously immigrated to England in the past
      century (mostly those of South Asian or Afro-Caribbean ancestry), have both
      Celtic and Anglo-Saxon (and probably Norman French) ancestry. Tolkien could thus
      be said to be recreating a mythos that he had some cultural and genetic
      connection to. It's hard to see how 95% of present-day North Americans could
      possibly be able to claim that they were recreating their "own" mythos if they
      were to attempt to recreate the mythology of the native peoples of North
      America.

      Wendell Wagner


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • David Bratman
      ... Tolkien wasn t intending a mythos for the melting pot. He was intending one for his people, the English. That others have enjoyed it is wonderful, but it
      Message 2 of 14 , May 4 10:05 PM
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        At 04:51 PM 5/4/2005 -0400, Lizzie wrote:

        >Hm, yes, in the case of Tolkien, the Anglo invaders became the dominant
        >force, as the Europeans did here, and he was recreating a mythos for that
        >people, the way one might make one for the "melting pot."

        Tolkien wasn't intending a mythos for the melting pot. He was intending
        one for his people, the English. That others have enjoyed it is wonderful,
        but it wasn't his original intent back in 1916.

        >But I'd rather
        >hear about the Celts and the Native Americans.

        Don't look to Tolkien for either of those (except a little Welsh linguistic
        influence in Sindarin). He was rather put out at an early reader's
        description of the Silmarillion's "eye-splitting Celtic names." He
        replied, "Needless to say [the names] are not Celtic! Neither are the
        tales. I do know Celtic things (many in their original languages Irish and
        Welsh), and feel for them a certain distate," and he goes on to explain why
        (Letters p. 26). At another time he said his aim was to achieve "the fair
        elusive beauty that some call Celtic, though it is rarely found in genuine
        ancient Celtic things." (Letters p. 144)

        David Bratman
      • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
        OK OK never mind. If anyone is interested in discussing how the idea COULD be done instead of how it could NOT be done, I ll see you on DisaffectedMythies.
        Message 3 of 14 , May 5 6:09 AM
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          OK OK never mind. If anyone is interested in discussing how the idea COULD
          be done instead of how it could NOT be done, I'll see you on
          DisaffectedMythies. Tolkien was a wonderful, wonderful genius, but I have
          to hope that there will be others of his stature.

          thanks,

          Lizzie

          Elizabeth Apgar Triano
          lizziewriter@...
          amor vincit omnia
          www.lizziewriter.com
          www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org
        • Croft, Janet B.
          Well, I could see a mythology related more to a place than a people, which might be appropriate for a primarily immigrant population like that of North
          Message 4 of 14 , May 5 12:46 PM
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            Well, I could see a mythology related more to a place than a people,
            which might be appropriate for a primarily immigrant population like
            that of North America. As a nation we don't have a unified mythology of
            "a people" to call on, but we do have concepts like "the West" or "the
            Frontier" or "the Colonies", more tied to a place than a people. So why
            not "the Great White North" -- and there probably is a mythos of sorts
            out there, since the phrase exists -- maybe Canadian and not as familiar
            to us south of the border. I think Orson Scott Card's Alvin Maker
            series might have touched on this, as well as Neil Gaiman's "American
            Gods", but it's been too long since I've read either. And IIRC Kim
            Stanly Robinson's Mars trilogy had some speculation on mythology of
            place for Mars, drawing on Bradbury.


            Janet Brennan Croft

            -----Original Message-----
            From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            Of Elizabeth Apgar Triano
            Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 8:09 AM
            To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [mythsoc] American Northernness

            OK OK never mind. If anyone is interested in discussing how the idea
            COULD be done instead of how it could NOT be done, I'll see you on
            DisaffectedMythies. Tolkien was a wonderful, wonderful genius, but I
            have to hope that there will be others of his stature.

            thanks,

            Lizzie

            Elizabeth Apgar Triano
            lizziewriter@...
            amor vincit omnia
            www.lizziewriter.com
            www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org






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          • alexeik@aol.com
            In a message dated 5/5/5 7:45:30 PM, Lizzie wrote:
            Message 5 of 14 , May 5 1:04 PM
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              In a message dated 5/5/5 7:45:30 PM, Lizzie wrote:

              <<OK OK never mind. If anyone is interested in discussing how the idea COULD
              be done instead of how it could NOT be done, >>

              Actually, someone who *is* doing it is Orson Scott Card, in his "Alvin Maker"
              series. He's doing it not by cannibalising the mythologies of culturally
              alien Native peoples but by imagining an alternative America in which the great
              themes that have been perceived (and given mythic resonance) in accounts of
              American history are articulated in a different way that highlights their value as
              myth.
              Alexei
            • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
              Splendid! Thank you, Alexei! I think I read one of those books early on, or a short story, and I always meant to get back to them. Orson Scott Card is a
              Message 6 of 14 , May 6 7:20 AM
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                Splendid! Thank you, Alexei! I think I read one of those books early on,
                or a short story, and I always meant to get back to them. Orson Scott Card
                is a master storyteller isn't he? What's his background?

                Lizzie

                Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                lizziewriter@...
                amor vincit omnia
                www.lizziewriter.com
                www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org


                > [Original Message]
                > From: <alexeik@...>
                > To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                > Date: 5/5/2005 4:04:31 PM
                > Subject: Re: Re: [mythsoc] American Northernness
                >
                >
                > In a message dated 5/5/5 7:45:30 PM, Lizzie wrote:
                >
                > <<OK OK never mind. If anyone is interested in discussing how the idea
                COULD
                > be done instead of how it could NOT be done, >>
                >
                > Actually, someone who *is* doing it is Orson Scott Card, in his "Alvin
                Maker"
                > series. He's doing it not by cannibalising the mythologies of culturally
                > alien Native peoples but by imagining an alternative America in which the
                great
                > themes that have been perceived (and given mythic resonance) in accounts
                of
                > American history are articulated in a different way that highlights their
                value as
                > myth.
                > Alexei
                >
              • Stolzi
                ... From: Elizabeth Apgar Triano ... Card ... Mormon (Latter Day Saints) - a church very focused upon events on the N. American
                Message 7 of 14 , May 6 9:02 AM
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                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Elizabeth Apgar Triano" <lizziewriter@...>


                  > Splendid! Thank you, Alexei! I think I read one of those books early on,
                  > or a short story, and I always meant to get back to them. Orson Scott
                  Card
                  > is a master storyteller isn't he? What's his background?


                  Mormon (Latter Day Saints) - a church very focused upon events on the N.
                  American continent.

                  Diamond Proudbrook
                • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                  OK. Does he have a profession other than writer-of-stories I guess should have been my question. Although yes that is a relevant answer, certes. I am
                  Message 8 of 14 , May 6 10:30 AM
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                    OK. Does he have a profession other than writer-of-stories I guess should
                    have been my question. Although yes that is a relevant answer, certes. I
                    am thinking, like, David Brin (physicist), Isaac Asimov (some kind of
                    sciencey background), C.S. Friedman (stage costuming, etc.), J.R.R. Tolkien
                    (philologist).

                    Lizzie

                    Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                    lizziewriter@...
                    amor vincit omnia
                    www.lizziewriter.com
                    www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org
                    >
                    > Mormon (Latter Day Saints) - a church very focused upon events on the N.
                    > American continent.
                    >
                    > Diamond Proudbrook
                    >
                    >
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