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Re: [mythsoc] American Northernness

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  • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
    *koff* Very good. Hm, yes, in the case of Tolkien, the Anglo invaders became the dominant force, as the Europeans did here, and he was recreating a mythos for
    Message 1 of 14 , May 4, 2005
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      *koff* Very good.

      Hm, yes, in the case of Tolkien, the Anglo invaders became the dominant
      force, as the Europeans did here, and he was recreating a mythos for that
      people, the way one might make one for the "melting pot." But I'd rather
      hear about the Celts and the Native Americans.

      Well, if we want all the oil and diamonds under those glaciers, we gotta
      get rid of them somehow.

      Lizzie

      Elizabeth Apgar Triano
      lizziewriter@...
      amor vincit omnia
      www.lizziewriter.com
      www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org


      > [Original Message]
      > From: David Bratman <dbratman@...>
      > To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
      > Date: 5/4/2005 3:38:36 PM
      > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] American Northernness
      >
      > There's one significant difference between Tolkien trying to write an
      > Anglo-Saxon myth and someone doing the same for the Inuit.
      >
      > The difference is, Tolkien was himself of Anglo-Saxon descent, so were
      most
      > of his immediate readers, and many of who aren't are at least steeped in
      > English culture. Whereas very few Americans, or even Canadians, are
      Inuit.
      > There's a distance there, and it's harder to overcome. (Not to say that
      > it can't be: myths have been known to reach people very alien from them,
      > and Tolkien has been appreciated by people who know nothing of England -
      > but he seems to be being appreciated in a very different way.)
      >
      > Now's the time to capture Inuit culture, though, as we're so busy melting
      > their landscape.
      >
      > DB
      >
    • WendellWag@aol.com
      In a message dated 5/4/2005 11:19:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, lizziewriter@earthlink.net writes: Hm, yes, in the case of Tolkien, the Anglo invaders became
      Message 2 of 14 , May 4, 2005
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        In a message dated 5/4/2005 11:19:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
        lizziewriter@... writes:

        Hm, yes, in the case of Tolkien, the Anglo invaders became the dominant
        force, as the Europeans did here, and he was recreating a mythos for that
        people, the way one might make one for the "melting pot."


        The point is that Tolkien was at least partly descended from the peoples
        whose mythology he was trying to recreate. Most English people, with the
        exception of those whose ancestors obviously immigrated to England in the past
        century (mostly those of South Asian or Afro-Caribbean ancestry), have both
        Celtic and Anglo-Saxon (and probably Norman French) ancestry. Tolkien could thus
        be said to be recreating a mythos that he had some cultural and genetic
        connection to. It's hard to see how 95% of present-day North Americans could
        possibly be able to claim that they were recreating their "own" mythos if they
        were to attempt to recreate the mythology of the native peoples of North
        America.

        Wendell Wagner


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • David Bratman
        ... Tolkien wasn t intending a mythos for the melting pot. He was intending one for his people, the English. That others have enjoyed it is wonderful, but it
        Message 3 of 14 , May 4, 2005
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          At 04:51 PM 5/4/2005 -0400, Lizzie wrote:

          >Hm, yes, in the case of Tolkien, the Anglo invaders became the dominant
          >force, as the Europeans did here, and he was recreating a mythos for that
          >people, the way one might make one for the "melting pot."

          Tolkien wasn't intending a mythos for the melting pot. He was intending
          one for his people, the English. That others have enjoyed it is wonderful,
          but it wasn't his original intent back in 1916.

          >But I'd rather
          >hear about the Celts and the Native Americans.

          Don't look to Tolkien for either of those (except a little Welsh linguistic
          influence in Sindarin). He was rather put out at an early reader's
          description of the Silmarillion's "eye-splitting Celtic names." He
          replied, "Needless to say [the names] are not Celtic! Neither are the
          tales. I do know Celtic things (many in their original languages Irish and
          Welsh), and feel for them a certain distate," and he goes on to explain why
          (Letters p. 26). At another time he said his aim was to achieve "the fair
          elusive beauty that some call Celtic, though it is rarely found in genuine
          ancient Celtic things." (Letters p. 144)

          David Bratman
        • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
          OK OK never mind. If anyone is interested in discussing how the idea COULD be done instead of how it could NOT be done, I ll see you on DisaffectedMythies.
          Message 4 of 14 , May 5, 2005
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            OK OK never mind. If anyone is interested in discussing how the idea COULD
            be done instead of how it could NOT be done, I'll see you on
            DisaffectedMythies. Tolkien was a wonderful, wonderful genius, but I have
            to hope that there will be others of his stature.

            thanks,

            Lizzie

            Elizabeth Apgar Triano
            lizziewriter@...
            amor vincit omnia
            www.lizziewriter.com
            www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org
          • Croft, Janet B.
            Well, I could see a mythology related more to a place than a people, which might be appropriate for a primarily immigrant population like that of North
            Message 5 of 14 , May 5, 2005
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              Well, I could see a mythology related more to a place than a people,
              which might be appropriate for a primarily immigrant population like
              that of North America. As a nation we don't have a unified mythology of
              "a people" to call on, but we do have concepts like "the West" or "the
              Frontier" or "the Colonies", more tied to a place than a people. So why
              not "the Great White North" -- and there probably is a mythos of sorts
              out there, since the phrase exists -- maybe Canadian and not as familiar
              to us south of the border. I think Orson Scott Card's Alvin Maker
              series might have touched on this, as well as Neil Gaiman's "American
              Gods", but it's been too long since I've read either. And IIRC Kim
              Stanly Robinson's Mars trilogy had some speculation on mythology of
              place for Mars, drawing on Bradbury.


              Janet Brennan Croft

              -----Original Message-----
              From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
              Of Elizabeth Apgar Triano
              Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 8:09 AM
              To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [mythsoc] American Northernness

              OK OK never mind. If anyone is interested in discussing how the idea
              COULD be done instead of how it could NOT be done, I'll see you on
              DisaffectedMythies. Tolkien was a wonderful, wonderful genius, but I
              have to hope that there will be others of his stature.

              thanks,

              Lizzie

              Elizabeth Apgar Triano
              lizziewriter@...
              amor vincit omnia
              www.lizziewriter.com
              www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org






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            • alexeik@aol.com
              In a message dated 5/5/5 7:45:30 PM, Lizzie wrote:
              Message 6 of 14 , May 5, 2005
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                In a message dated 5/5/5 7:45:30 PM, Lizzie wrote:

                <<OK OK never mind. If anyone is interested in discussing how the idea COULD
                be done instead of how it could NOT be done, >>

                Actually, someone who *is* doing it is Orson Scott Card, in his "Alvin Maker"
                series. He's doing it not by cannibalising the mythologies of culturally
                alien Native peoples but by imagining an alternative America in which the great
                themes that have been perceived (and given mythic resonance) in accounts of
                American history are articulated in a different way that highlights their value as
                myth.
                Alexei
              • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                Splendid! Thank you, Alexei! I think I read one of those books early on, or a short story, and I always meant to get back to them. Orson Scott Card is a
                Message 7 of 14 , May 6, 2005
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                  Splendid! Thank you, Alexei! I think I read one of those books early on,
                  or a short story, and I always meant to get back to them. Orson Scott Card
                  is a master storyteller isn't he? What's his background?

                  Lizzie

                  Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                  lizziewriter@...
                  amor vincit omnia
                  www.lizziewriter.com
                  www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org


                  > [Original Message]
                  > From: <alexeik@...>
                  > To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Date: 5/5/2005 4:04:31 PM
                  > Subject: Re: Re: [mythsoc] American Northernness
                  >
                  >
                  > In a message dated 5/5/5 7:45:30 PM, Lizzie wrote:
                  >
                  > <<OK OK never mind. If anyone is interested in discussing how the idea
                  COULD
                  > be done instead of how it could NOT be done, >>
                  >
                  > Actually, someone who *is* doing it is Orson Scott Card, in his "Alvin
                  Maker"
                  > series. He's doing it not by cannibalising the mythologies of culturally
                  > alien Native peoples but by imagining an alternative America in which the
                  great
                  > themes that have been perceived (and given mythic resonance) in accounts
                  of
                  > American history are articulated in a different way that highlights their
                  value as
                  > myth.
                  > Alexei
                  >
                • Stolzi
                  ... From: Elizabeth Apgar Triano ... Card ... Mormon (Latter Day Saints) - a church very focused upon events on the N. American
                  Message 8 of 14 , May 6, 2005
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                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Elizabeth Apgar Triano" <lizziewriter@...>


                    > Splendid! Thank you, Alexei! I think I read one of those books early on,
                    > or a short story, and I always meant to get back to them. Orson Scott
                    Card
                    > is a master storyteller isn't he? What's his background?


                    Mormon (Latter Day Saints) - a church very focused upon events on the N.
                    American continent.

                    Diamond Proudbrook
                  • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                    OK. Does he have a profession other than writer-of-stories I guess should have been my question. Although yes that is a relevant answer, certes. I am
                    Message 9 of 14 , May 6, 2005
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                      OK. Does he have a profession other than writer-of-stories I guess should
                      have been my question. Although yes that is a relevant answer, certes. I
                      am thinking, like, David Brin (physicist), Isaac Asimov (some kind of
                      sciencey background), C.S. Friedman (stage costuming, etc.), J.R.R. Tolkien
                      (philologist).

                      Lizzie

                      Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                      lizziewriter@...
                      amor vincit omnia
                      www.lizziewriter.com
                      www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org
                      >
                      > Mormon (Latter Day Saints) - a church very focused upon events on the N.
                      > American continent.
                      >
                      > Diamond Proudbrook
                      >
                      >
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