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Re: [mythsoc] American Northernness

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  • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
    Yeah, I just read that it was derived from a shorthand symbol set. How unromantic. But perhaps I was reading outdated info. Someone had sent me an image of
    Message 1 of 14 , May 4 1:49 PM
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      Yeah, I just read that it was derived from a shorthand symbol set. How
      unromantic. But perhaps I was reading outdated info. Someone had sent me
      an image of a Nunavut first day cover, and called it "Cyrillic" and I just
      copied their usage. I will keep reading.

      thanks

      Lizzie

      Elizabeth Apgar Triano
      lizziewriter@...
      amor vincit omnia
      www.lizziewriter.com
      www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org


      > [Original Message]
      > From: <alexeik@...>
      > To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
      > Date: 5/4/2005 3:32:21 PM
      > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] American Northernness
      >
      >
      > In a message dated 5/4/5 7:21:04 PM, Lizzie wrote:
      >
      > <<The Inuit language has
      > its own Cyrillic characters, made me think of runes.>>
      >
      > The Inuit of Nunavut don't use Cyrillic characters, they use a syllabary
      that
      > was devised specifically for their language.
      > Alexei
      >
    • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
      *koff* Very good. Hm, yes, in the case of Tolkien, the Anglo invaders became the dominant force, as the Europeans did here, and he was recreating a mythos for
      Message 2 of 14 , May 4 1:51 PM
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        *koff* Very good.

        Hm, yes, in the case of Tolkien, the Anglo invaders became the dominant
        force, as the Europeans did here, and he was recreating a mythos for that
        people, the way one might make one for the "melting pot." But I'd rather
        hear about the Celts and the Native Americans.

        Well, if we want all the oil and diamonds under those glaciers, we gotta
        get rid of them somehow.

        Lizzie

        Elizabeth Apgar Triano
        lizziewriter@...
        amor vincit omnia
        www.lizziewriter.com
        www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org


        > [Original Message]
        > From: David Bratman <dbratman@...>
        > To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
        > Date: 5/4/2005 3:38:36 PM
        > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] American Northernness
        >
        > There's one significant difference between Tolkien trying to write an
        > Anglo-Saxon myth and someone doing the same for the Inuit.
        >
        > The difference is, Tolkien was himself of Anglo-Saxon descent, so were
        most
        > of his immediate readers, and many of who aren't are at least steeped in
        > English culture. Whereas very few Americans, or even Canadians, are
        Inuit.
        > There's a distance there, and it's harder to overcome. (Not to say that
        > it can't be: myths have been known to reach people very alien from them,
        > and Tolkien has been appreciated by people who know nothing of England -
        > but he seems to be being appreciated in a very different way.)
        >
        > Now's the time to capture Inuit culture, though, as we're so busy melting
        > their landscape.
        >
        > DB
        >
      • WendellWag@aol.com
        In a message dated 5/4/2005 11:19:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, lizziewriter@earthlink.net writes: Hm, yes, in the case of Tolkien, the Anglo invaders became
        Message 3 of 14 , May 4 8:28 PM
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          In a message dated 5/4/2005 11:19:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
          lizziewriter@... writes:

          Hm, yes, in the case of Tolkien, the Anglo invaders became the dominant
          force, as the Europeans did here, and he was recreating a mythos for that
          people, the way one might make one for the "melting pot."


          The point is that Tolkien was at least partly descended from the peoples
          whose mythology he was trying to recreate. Most English people, with the
          exception of those whose ancestors obviously immigrated to England in the past
          century (mostly those of South Asian or Afro-Caribbean ancestry), have both
          Celtic and Anglo-Saxon (and probably Norman French) ancestry. Tolkien could thus
          be said to be recreating a mythos that he had some cultural and genetic
          connection to. It's hard to see how 95% of present-day North Americans could
          possibly be able to claim that they were recreating their "own" mythos if they
          were to attempt to recreate the mythology of the native peoples of North
          America.

          Wendell Wagner


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • David Bratman
          ... Tolkien wasn t intending a mythos for the melting pot. He was intending one for his people, the English. That others have enjoyed it is wonderful, but it
          Message 4 of 14 , May 4 10:05 PM
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            At 04:51 PM 5/4/2005 -0400, Lizzie wrote:

            >Hm, yes, in the case of Tolkien, the Anglo invaders became the dominant
            >force, as the Europeans did here, and he was recreating a mythos for that
            >people, the way one might make one for the "melting pot."

            Tolkien wasn't intending a mythos for the melting pot. He was intending
            one for his people, the English. That others have enjoyed it is wonderful,
            but it wasn't his original intent back in 1916.

            >But I'd rather
            >hear about the Celts and the Native Americans.

            Don't look to Tolkien for either of those (except a little Welsh linguistic
            influence in Sindarin). He was rather put out at an early reader's
            description of the Silmarillion's "eye-splitting Celtic names." He
            replied, "Needless to say [the names] are not Celtic! Neither are the
            tales. I do know Celtic things (many in their original languages Irish and
            Welsh), and feel for them a certain distate," and he goes on to explain why
            (Letters p. 26). At another time he said his aim was to achieve "the fair
            elusive beauty that some call Celtic, though it is rarely found in genuine
            ancient Celtic things." (Letters p. 144)

            David Bratman
          • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
            OK OK never mind. If anyone is interested in discussing how the idea COULD be done instead of how it could NOT be done, I ll see you on DisaffectedMythies.
            Message 5 of 14 , May 5 6:09 AM
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              OK OK never mind. If anyone is interested in discussing how the idea COULD
              be done instead of how it could NOT be done, I'll see you on
              DisaffectedMythies. Tolkien was a wonderful, wonderful genius, but I have
              to hope that there will be others of his stature.

              thanks,

              Lizzie

              Elizabeth Apgar Triano
              lizziewriter@...
              amor vincit omnia
              www.lizziewriter.com
              www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org
            • Croft, Janet B.
              Well, I could see a mythology related more to a place than a people, which might be appropriate for a primarily immigrant population like that of North
              Message 6 of 14 , May 5 12:46 PM
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                Well, I could see a mythology related more to a place than a people,
                which might be appropriate for a primarily immigrant population like
                that of North America. As a nation we don't have a unified mythology of
                "a people" to call on, but we do have concepts like "the West" or "the
                Frontier" or "the Colonies", more tied to a place than a people. So why
                not "the Great White North" -- and there probably is a mythos of sorts
                out there, since the phrase exists -- maybe Canadian and not as familiar
                to us south of the border. I think Orson Scott Card's Alvin Maker
                series might have touched on this, as well as Neil Gaiman's "American
                Gods", but it's been too long since I've read either. And IIRC Kim
                Stanly Robinson's Mars trilogy had some speculation on mythology of
                place for Mars, drawing on Bradbury.


                Janet Brennan Croft

                -----Original Message-----
                From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                Of Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 8:09 AM
                To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [mythsoc] American Northernness

                OK OK never mind. If anyone is interested in discussing how the idea
                COULD be done instead of how it could NOT be done, I'll see you on
                DisaffectedMythies. Tolkien was a wonderful, wonderful genius, but I
                have to hope that there will be others of his stature.

                thanks,

                Lizzie

                Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                lizziewriter@...
                amor vincit omnia
                www.lizziewriter.com
                www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org






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              • alexeik@aol.com
                In a message dated 5/5/5 7:45:30 PM, Lizzie wrote:
                Message 7 of 14 , May 5 1:04 PM
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                  In a message dated 5/5/5 7:45:30 PM, Lizzie wrote:

                  <<OK OK never mind. If anyone is interested in discussing how the idea COULD
                  be done instead of how it could NOT be done, >>

                  Actually, someone who *is* doing it is Orson Scott Card, in his "Alvin Maker"
                  series. He's doing it not by cannibalising the mythologies of culturally
                  alien Native peoples but by imagining an alternative America in which the great
                  themes that have been perceived (and given mythic resonance) in accounts of
                  American history are articulated in a different way that highlights their value as
                  myth.
                  Alexei
                • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                  Splendid! Thank you, Alexei! I think I read one of those books early on, or a short story, and I always meant to get back to them. Orson Scott Card is a
                  Message 8 of 14 , May 6 7:20 AM
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                    Splendid! Thank you, Alexei! I think I read one of those books early on,
                    or a short story, and I always meant to get back to them. Orson Scott Card
                    is a master storyteller isn't he? What's his background?

                    Lizzie

                    Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                    lizziewriter@...
                    amor vincit omnia
                    www.lizziewriter.com
                    www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org


                    > [Original Message]
                    > From: <alexeik@...>
                    > To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Date: 5/5/2005 4:04:31 PM
                    > Subject: Re: Re: [mythsoc] American Northernness
                    >
                    >
                    > In a message dated 5/5/5 7:45:30 PM, Lizzie wrote:
                    >
                    > <<OK OK never mind. If anyone is interested in discussing how the idea
                    COULD
                    > be done instead of how it could NOT be done, >>
                    >
                    > Actually, someone who *is* doing it is Orson Scott Card, in his "Alvin
                    Maker"
                    > series. He's doing it not by cannibalising the mythologies of culturally
                    > alien Native peoples but by imagining an alternative America in which the
                    great
                    > themes that have been perceived (and given mythic resonance) in accounts
                    of
                    > American history are articulated in a different way that highlights their
                    value as
                    > myth.
                    > Alexei
                    >
                  • Stolzi
                    ... From: Elizabeth Apgar Triano ... Card ... Mormon (Latter Day Saints) - a church very focused upon events on the N. American
                    Message 9 of 14 , May 6 9:02 AM
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                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Elizabeth Apgar Triano" <lizziewriter@...>


                      > Splendid! Thank you, Alexei! I think I read one of those books early on,
                      > or a short story, and I always meant to get back to them. Orson Scott
                      Card
                      > is a master storyteller isn't he? What's his background?


                      Mormon (Latter Day Saints) - a church very focused upon events on the N.
                      American continent.

                      Diamond Proudbrook
                    • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                      OK. Does he have a profession other than writer-of-stories I guess should have been my question. Although yes that is a relevant answer, certes. I am
                      Message 10 of 14 , May 6 10:30 AM
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                        OK. Does he have a profession other than writer-of-stories I guess should
                        have been my question. Although yes that is a relevant answer, certes. I
                        am thinking, like, David Brin (physicist), Isaac Asimov (some kind of
                        sciencey background), C.S. Friedman (stage costuming, etc.), J.R.R. Tolkien
                        (philologist).

                        Lizzie

                        Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                        lizziewriter@...
                        amor vincit omnia
                        www.lizziewriter.com
                        www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org
                        >
                        > Mormon (Latter Day Saints) - a church very focused upon events on the N.
                        > American continent.
                        >
                        > Diamond Proudbrook
                        >
                        >
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