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Re: [mythsoc] American Northernness

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  • alexeik@aol.com
    In a message dated 5/4/5 7:21:04 PM, Lizzie wrote: The Inuit of Nunavut don t
    Message 1 of 14 , May 4 12:32 PM
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      In a message dated 5/4/5 7:21:04 PM, Lizzie wrote:

      <<The Inuit language has
      its own Cyrillic characters, made me think of runes.>>

      The Inuit of Nunavut don't use Cyrillic characters, they use a syllabary that
      was devised specifically for their language.
      Alexei
    • David Bratman
      There s one significant difference between Tolkien trying to write an Anglo-Saxon myth and someone doing the same for the Inuit. The difference is, Tolkien was
      Message 2 of 14 , May 4 12:37 PM
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        There's one significant difference between Tolkien trying to write an
        Anglo-Saxon myth and someone doing the same for the Inuit.

        The difference is, Tolkien was himself of Anglo-Saxon descent, so were most
        of his immediate readers, and many of who aren't are at least steeped in
        English culture. Whereas very few Americans, or even Canadians, are Inuit.
        There's a distance there, and it's harder to overcome. (Not to say that
        it can't be: myths have been known to reach people very alien from them,
        and Tolkien has been appreciated by people who know nothing of England -
        but he seems to be being appreciated in a very different way.)

        Now's the time to capture Inuit culture, though, as we're so busy melting
        their landscape.

        DB
      • Mike Foster
        Does anyone of translations of Tolkien into any Native American languages, please? Responding to a scholarly query.... Thanks, Mike
        Message 3 of 14 , May 4 1:45 PM
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          Does anyone of translations of Tolkien into any Native American
          languages, please?

          Responding to a scholarly query....

          Thanks,
          Mike

          Elizabeth Apgar Triano wrote:

          >OK, a rambling post, yup
          >
          >(Did I already post my theory/query about how neat it would be if another
          >Tolkienesque genius came along and did for the New World continents what he
          >did for the UK? It could probably be done, but it wouldn't be easy.) The
          >land itself, and the nations before the Europeans came. Much mythic stuff
          >there, and it is being treated all the time, sure, but generally in a
          >specific or regional way. Or in a meaningless mishmash New Age way. The
          >matere is there, all we need is the genius to synthesize it.
          >
          >Now, I am still rolling with the New World theory, and I have recently
          >"discovered" Nunavut, the Canadian Inuit territory. The Inuit language has
          >its own Cyrillic characters, made me think of runes... and its own world
          >and language. I mean, it's not just translation, like going from French to
          >Spanish. There is a whole vista of "New World Northernness" (shades of
          >Sedna!) available out there.
          >
          >Lizzie
          >
          >Elizabeth Apgar Triano
          >lizziewriter@...
          >amor vincit omnia
          >www.lizziewriter.com
          >www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
          Yeah, I just read that it was derived from a shorthand symbol set. How unromantic. But perhaps I was reading outdated info. Someone had sent me an image of
          Message 4 of 14 , May 4 1:49 PM
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            Yeah, I just read that it was derived from a shorthand symbol set. How
            unromantic. But perhaps I was reading outdated info. Someone had sent me
            an image of a Nunavut first day cover, and called it "Cyrillic" and I just
            copied their usage. I will keep reading.

            thanks

            Lizzie

            Elizabeth Apgar Triano
            lizziewriter@...
            amor vincit omnia
            www.lizziewriter.com
            www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org


            > [Original Message]
            > From: <alexeik@...>
            > To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
            > Date: 5/4/2005 3:32:21 PM
            > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] American Northernness
            >
            >
            > In a message dated 5/4/5 7:21:04 PM, Lizzie wrote:
            >
            > <<The Inuit language has
            > its own Cyrillic characters, made me think of runes.>>
            >
            > The Inuit of Nunavut don't use Cyrillic characters, they use a syllabary
            that
            > was devised specifically for their language.
            > Alexei
            >
          • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
            *koff* Very good. Hm, yes, in the case of Tolkien, the Anglo invaders became the dominant force, as the Europeans did here, and he was recreating a mythos for
            Message 5 of 14 , May 4 1:51 PM
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              *koff* Very good.

              Hm, yes, in the case of Tolkien, the Anglo invaders became the dominant
              force, as the Europeans did here, and he was recreating a mythos for that
              people, the way one might make one for the "melting pot." But I'd rather
              hear about the Celts and the Native Americans.

              Well, if we want all the oil and diamonds under those glaciers, we gotta
              get rid of them somehow.

              Lizzie

              Elizabeth Apgar Triano
              lizziewriter@...
              amor vincit omnia
              www.lizziewriter.com
              www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org


              > [Original Message]
              > From: David Bratman <dbratman@...>
              > To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
              > Date: 5/4/2005 3:38:36 PM
              > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] American Northernness
              >
              > There's one significant difference between Tolkien trying to write an
              > Anglo-Saxon myth and someone doing the same for the Inuit.
              >
              > The difference is, Tolkien was himself of Anglo-Saxon descent, so were
              most
              > of his immediate readers, and many of who aren't are at least steeped in
              > English culture. Whereas very few Americans, or even Canadians, are
              Inuit.
              > There's a distance there, and it's harder to overcome. (Not to say that
              > it can't be: myths have been known to reach people very alien from them,
              > and Tolkien has been appreciated by people who know nothing of England -
              > but he seems to be being appreciated in a very different way.)
              >
              > Now's the time to capture Inuit culture, though, as we're so busy melting
              > their landscape.
              >
              > DB
              >
            • WendellWag@aol.com
              In a message dated 5/4/2005 11:19:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, lizziewriter@earthlink.net writes: Hm, yes, in the case of Tolkien, the Anglo invaders became
              Message 6 of 14 , May 4 8:28 PM
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                In a message dated 5/4/2005 11:19:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                lizziewriter@... writes:

                Hm, yes, in the case of Tolkien, the Anglo invaders became the dominant
                force, as the Europeans did here, and he was recreating a mythos for that
                people, the way one might make one for the "melting pot."


                The point is that Tolkien was at least partly descended from the peoples
                whose mythology he was trying to recreate. Most English people, with the
                exception of those whose ancestors obviously immigrated to England in the past
                century (mostly those of South Asian or Afro-Caribbean ancestry), have both
                Celtic and Anglo-Saxon (and probably Norman French) ancestry. Tolkien could thus
                be said to be recreating a mythos that he had some cultural and genetic
                connection to. It's hard to see how 95% of present-day North Americans could
                possibly be able to claim that they were recreating their "own" mythos if they
                were to attempt to recreate the mythology of the native peoples of North
                America.

                Wendell Wagner


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • David Bratman
                ... Tolkien wasn t intending a mythos for the melting pot. He was intending one for his people, the English. That others have enjoyed it is wonderful, but it
                Message 7 of 14 , May 4 10:05 PM
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                  At 04:51 PM 5/4/2005 -0400, Lizzie wrote:

                  >Hm, yes, in the case of Tolkien, the Anglo invaders became the dominant
                  >force, as the Europeans did here, and he was recreating a mythos for that
                  >people, the way one might make one for the "melting pot."

                  Tolkien wasn't intending a mythos for the melting pot. He was intending
                  one for his people, the English. That others have enjoyed it is wonderful,
                  but it wasn't his original intent back in 1916.

                  >But I'd rather
                  >hear about the Celts and the Native Americans.

                  Don't look to Tolkien for either of those (except a little Welsh linguistic
                  influence in Sindarin). He was rather put out at an early reader's
                  description of the Silmarillion's "eye-splitting Celtic names." He
                  replied, "Needless to say [the names] are not Celtic! Neither are the
                  tales. I do know Celtic things (many in their original languages Irish and
                  Welsh), and feel for them a certain distate," and he goes on to explain why
                  (Letters p. 26). At another time he said his aim was to achieve "the fair
                  elusive beauty that some call Celtic, though it is rarely found in genuine
                  ancient Celtic things." (Letters p. 144)

                  David Bratman
                • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                  OK OK never mind. If anyone is interested in discussing how the idea COULD be done instead of how it could NOT be done, I ll see you on DisaffectedMythies.
                  Message 8 of 14 , May 5 6:09 AM
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                    OK OK never mind. If anyone is interested in discussing how the idea COULD
                    be done instead of how it could NOT be done, I'll see you on
                    DisaffectedMythies. Tolkien was a wonderful, wonderful genius, but I have
                    to hope that there will be others of his stature.

                    thanks,

                    Lizzie

                    Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                    lizziewriter@...
                    amor vincit omnia
                    www.lizziewriter.com
                    www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org
                  • Croft, Janet B.
                    Well, I could see a mythology related more to a place than a people, which might be appropriate for a primarily immigrant population like that of North
                    Message 9 of 14 , May 5 12:46 PM
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                      Well, I could see a mythology related more to a place than a people,
                      which might be appropriate for a primarily immigrant population like
                      that of North America. As a nation we don't have a unified mythology of
                      "a people" to call on, but we do have concepts like "the West" or "the
                      Frontier" or "the Colonies", more tied to a place than a people. So why
                      not "the Great White North" -- and there probably is a mythos of sorts
                      out there, since the phrase exists -- maybe Canadian and not as familiar
                      to us south of the border. I think Orson Scott Card's Alvin Maker
                      series might have touched on this, as well as Neil Gaiman's "American
                      Gods", but it's been too long since I've read either. And IIRC Kim
                      Stanly Robinson's Mars trilogy had some speculation on mythology of
                      place for Mars, drawing on Bradbury.


                      Janet Brennan Croft

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                      Of Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                      Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 8:09 AM
                      To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [mythsoc] American Northernness

                      OK OK never mind. If anyone is interested in discussing how the idea
                      COULD be done instead of how it could NOT be done, I'll see you on
                      DisaffectedMythies. Tolkien was a wonderful, wonderful genius, but I
                      have to hope that there will be others of his stature.

                      thanks,

                      Lizzie

                      Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                      lizziewriter@...
                      amor vincit omnia
                      www.lizziewriter.com
                      www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org






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                    • alexeik@aol.com
                      In a message dated 5/5/5 7:45:30 PM, Lizzie wrote:
                      Message 10 of 14 , May 5 1:04 PM
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                        In a message dated 5/5/5 7:45:30 PM, Lizzie wrote:

                        <<OK OK never mind. If anyone is interested in discussing how the idea COULD
                        be done instead of how it could NOT be done, >>

                        Actually, someone who *is* doing it is Orson Scott Card, in his "Alvin Maker"
                        series. He's doing it not by cannibalising the mythologies of culturally
                        alien Native peoples but by imagining an alternative America in which the great
                        themes that have been perceived (and given mythic resonance) in accounts of
                        American history are articulated in a different way that highlights their value as
                        myth.
                        Alexei
                      • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                        Splendid! Thank you, Alexei! I think I read one of those books early on, or a short story, and I always meant to get back to them. Orson Scott Card is a
                        Message 11 of 14 , May 6 7:20 AM
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                          Splendid! Thank you, Alexei! I think I read one of those books early on,
                          or a short story, and I always meant to get back to them. Orson Scott Card
                          is a master storyteller isn't he? What's his background?

                          Lizzie

                          Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                          lizziewriter@...
                          amor vincit omnia
                          www.lizziewriter.com
                          www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org


                          > [Original Message]
                          > From: <alexeik@...>
                          > To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Date: 5/5/2005 4:04:31 PM
                          > Subject: Re: Re: [mythsoc] American Northernness
                          >
                          >
                          > In a message dated 5/5/5 7:45:30 PM, Lizzie wrote:
                          >
                          > <<OK OK never mind. If anyone is interested in discussing how the idea
                          COULD
                          > be done instead of how it could NOT be done, >>
                          >
                          > Actually, someone who *is* doing it is Orson Scott Card, in his "Alvin
                          Maker"
                          > series. He's doing it not by cannibalising the mythologies of culturally
                          > alien Native peoples but by imagining an alternative America in which the
                          great
                          > themes that have been perceived (and given mythic resonance) in accounts
                          of
                          > American history are articulated in a different way that highlights their
                          value as
                          > myth.
                          > Alexei
                          >
                        • Stolzi
                          ... From: Elizabeth Apgar Triano ... Card ... Mormon (Latter Day Saints) - a church very focused upon events on the N. American
                          Message 12 of 14 , May 6 9:02 AM
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                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Elizabeth Apgar Triano" <lizziewriter@...>


                            > Splendid! Thank you, Alexei! I think I read one of those books early on,
                            > or a short story, and I always meant to get back to them. Orson Scott
                            Card
                            > is a master storyteller isn't he? What's his background?


                            Mormon (Latter Day Saints) - a church very focused upon events on the N.
                            American continent.

                            Diamond Proudbrook
                          • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                            OK. Does he have a profession other than writer-of-stories I guess should have been my question. Although yes that is a relevant answer, certes. I am
                            Message 13 of 14 , May 6 10:30 AM
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                              OK. Does he have a profession other than writer-of-stories I guess should
                              have been my question. Although yes that is a relevant answer, certes. I
                              am thinking, like, David Brin (physicist), Isaac Asimov (some kind of
                              sciencey background), C.S. Friedman (stage costuming, etc.), J.R.R. Tolkien
                              (philologist).

                              Lizzie

                              Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                              lizziewriter@...
                              amor vincit omnia
                              www.lizziewriter.com
                              www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org
                              >
                              > Mormon (Latter Day Saints) - a church very focused upon events on the N.
                              > American continent.
                              >
                              > Diamond Proudbrook
                              >
                              >
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