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Kalevala

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  • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
    I suppose it is nothing but coincidence that the mother of Vainamoinen, in the Kalevala, is named Ilmatar, so close to Tolkien s Iluvatar? (sp) Lizzie
    Message 1 of 20 , Apr 20, 2005
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      I suppose it is nothing but coincidence that the mother of Vainamoinen, in
      the Kalevala, is named Ilmatar, so close to Tolkien's Iluvatar? (sp)

      Lizzie


      Elizabeth Apgar Triano
      lizziewriter@...
      amor vincit omnia
      www.lizziewriter.com
      www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org
    • Walter Padgett
      ... I don t think they are very close. Il recalls illness and matar recalls tomatoes or just stuff like matter. But Ilu recalls ilumniate, and vatar
      Message 2 of 20 , Apr 20, 2005
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        >Ilmatar, so close to Tolkien's Iluvatar?

        I don't think they are very close.

        "Il" recalls illness and "matar" recalls tomatoes or just stuff like
        matter. But "Ilu" recalls ilumniate, and "vatar" recalls avatar.

        That's just my take on it. I'm sure these roots recalled so much
        more to Tolkien's mind.

        What does "Iluvatar" mean in the Quenya (or Sindarin, although I
        think it is a Quenya name)?

        ---

        "R&R for Charlie is a bowl of rice and a little rat meat" -
        Apocalypse Now
        ---
        Walter Padgett
      • Margaret Dean
        ... Not quite coincidence, since Tolkien based the phonology of Quenya (the source of the name Iluvatar ) on that of Finnish (presumably the source of the
        Message 3 of 20 , Apr 20, 2005
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          Elizabeth Apgar Triano wrote:
          >
          > I suppose it is nothing but coincidence that the mother of Vainamoinen, in
          > the Kalevala, is named Ilmatar, so close to Tolkien's Iluvatar? (sp)

          Not quite coincidence, since Tolkien based the phonology of
          Quenya (the source of the name "Iluvatar") on that of Finnish
          (presumably the source of the name "Ilmatar").


          --Margaret Dean
          <margdean@...>
        • Margaret Dean
          ... All-Father ; iluve [should be an acute accent over the u] = the whole, the all ; atar = father. And yes, it s Quenya. --Margaret Dean
          Message 4 of 20 , Apr 20, 2005
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            Walter Padgett wrote:

            > What does "Iluvatar" mean in the Quenya (or Sindarin, although I
            > think it is a Quenya name)?

            "All-Father"; "iluve" [should be an acute accent over the u] =
            "the whole, the all"; "atar" = "father."

            And yes, it's Quenya.


            --Margaret Dean
            <margdean@...>
          • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
            Yes, on the other hand I felt that it couldn t have been mere coincidence. I did note, as I clicked on thru Wikipedia, that Ilmatar has both male and female
            Message 5 of 20 , Apr 20, 2005
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              Yes, on the other hand I felt that it couldn't have been mere coincidence.
              I did note, as I clicked on thru Wikipedia, that Ilmatar has both male and
              female attributes.

              Luthien, she is Edith Tolkien, more or less... I wonder if there is a
              this-world avatar of Varda? Anyone?

              I am gathering up a pile of reading material for when spring break ends and
              I can sit for more than three minutes! lol

              Lizzie

              Elizabeth Apgar Triano
              lizziewriter@...
              amor vincit omnia
              www.lizziewriter.com
              www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org


              > [Original Message]
              > From: Margaret Dean <margdean@...>
              > To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
              > Date: 4/20/2005 12:34:07 PM
              > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Kalevala
              >
              >
              > Elizabeth Apgar Triano wrote:
              > >
              > > I suppose it is nothing but coincidence that the mother of Vainamoinen,
              in
              > > the Kalevala, is named Ilmatar, so close to Tolkien's Iluvatar? (sp)
              >
              > Not quite coincidence, since Tolkien based the phonology of
              > Quenya (the source of the name "Iluvatar") on that of Finnish
              > (presumably the source of the name "Ilmatar").
              >
              >
              > --Margaret Dean
              > <margdean@...>
              >
              >
              >
              > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Walter Padgett
              ... Diana Ross, maybe?
              Message 6 of 20 , Apr 20, 2005
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                >I wonder if there is a this-world avatar of Varda? Anyone?


                Diana Ross, maybe?
              • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                No, No, Enya of course. I bet Peter J. would agree. Oh, and the word I was searching for was analog but I couldn t remember it. Avatar was kind of a
                Message 7 of 20 , Apr 23, 2005
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                  No, No, Enya of course.

                  I bet Peter J. would agree.

                  Oh, and the word I was searching for was "analog" but I couldn't remember
                  it. "Avatar" was kind of a compromise.

                  Analog.

                  Not digital.

                  Lizzie

                  Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                  lizziewriter@...
                  amor vincit omnia
                  www.lizziewriter.com
                  www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org


                  > [Original Message]
                  > From: Walter Padgett <wpadgett@...>
                  > To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Date: 4/20/2005 9:39:46 PM
                  > Subject: [mythsoc] Re: Kalevala
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > >I wonder if there is a this-world avatar of Varda? Anyone?
                  >
                  >
                  > Diana Ross, maybe?
                  >
                  >
                • David Emerson
                  Does anyone have any recommendation(s) for a good translation of the Kalevala? With the recent interest in the story of Turin, I m of a mind to read what
                  Message 8 of 20 , May 7 1:33 PM
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                    Does anyone have any recommendation(s) for a good translation of the Kalevala?

                    With the recent interest in the story of Turin, I'm of a mind to read what inspired JRRT to write it. And I know there are people on this list who know more about it than I do.

                    emerdavid

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                  • Jason Fisher
                    ... The ones I ve read are Kirby and Magoun. I like Magoun; it s more faithful than pretty, which is what I look for in a translation. Kirby may be worth
                    Message 9 of 20 , May 7 1:55 PM
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                      > Does anyone have any recommendation( s) for a good translation
                      > of the Kalevala?
                      >
                      > With the recent interest in the story of Turin, I'm of a mind to read
                      > what inspired JRRT to write it. And I know there are people on this
                      > list who know more about it than I do.

                      The ones I've read are Kirby and Magoun. I like Magoun; it's more faithful than pretty, which is what I look for in a translation. Kirby may be worth reading, too -- depending on your purposes -- because his is the one Tolkien first read. But it's not very good, by the accounts of those who are acquainted with the original Finnish.

                      Jason
                    • Bonnie Callahan
                      Re the Relationship between Kalevala & Tolkien: Hello Jason & all-- A possible tip-off, don t know if this is common knowledge--forgive me if I m behind the
                      Message 10 of 20 , May 8 12:19 AM
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                        Re the Relationship between Kalevala & Tolkien:

                        Hello Jason & all--

                        A possible tip-off, don't know if this is common
                        knowledge--forgive me if I'm behind the loop.

                        I know the Finnish & Hungarian mythologies are closely
                        related, as are their languages. Maybe some clues are
                        present therein.

                        Does anyone know of this? I'd love to see some of
                        the scholarship on it.

                        I'm pretty sure Tolkien was fascinated by all of this.

                        I also wonder as to his interest in Russian lore.
                        "The Lay of Beren & Tinuviel" has always affected me
                        as being somehow related to the story line of
                        N. Rimskii-Korsakovs' "The Legend of the
                        Invisible City of Kitezh".

                        I saw the Orcs as being so much like the Tartars. The
                        meeting of the hero & heroine at the outset as being
                        our own Beren & Luthien.

                        Alexei K, want to weigh in?

                        In a mythic frame of mind, Bonnie
                        ***************

                        --- Jason Fisher <visualweasel@...> wrote:

                        > > Does anyone have any recommendation( s) for a good
                        > translation
                        > > of the Kalevala?
                        > >
                        > > With the recent interest in the story of Turin,
                        > I'm of a mind to read
                        > > what inspired JRRT to write it. And I know there
                        > are people on this
                        > > list who know more about it than I do.
                        >
                        > The ones I've read are Kirby and Magoun. I like
                        > Magoun; it's more faithful than pretty, which is
                        > what I look for in a translation. Kirby may be worth
                        > reading, too -- depending on your purposes --
                        > because his is the one Tolkien first read. But it's
                        > not very good, by the accounts of those who are
                        > acquainted with the original Finnish.
                        >
                        > Jason
                        >
                        >
                        > The Mythopoeic Society website
                        > http://www.mythsoc.org
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Jason Fisher
                        Bonnie, Szerbusz! :) ... Although most linguists agree in grouping Finnish and Hungarian together in the Finno-Ugric Family, they re not quite as close as that
                        Message 11 of 20 , May 8 7:49 AM
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                          Bonnie,

                          Szerbusz! :)

                          > I know the Finnish & Hungarian mythologies are closely
                          > related, as are their languages. Maybe some clues are
                          > present therein.

                          Although most linguists agree in grouping Finnish and Hungarian together in the Finno-Ugric Family, they're not quite as close as that might suggest � from what relatively little I know (in fact, I pretty much exhausted it with "szerbusz", so take this for what it's worth :). In fact, they're at opposite ends of the spectrum, from Finnic on the one hand to Ugric on the other. Still, as you point out, there are a number of linguistic similarities (particularly, phonological) that might well be worth investigation. I don't know anything about Hungarian mythology, though; what are some examples of its similarities to Finnish folklore?

                          > I also wonder as to his interest in Russian lore.
                          > "The Lay of Beren & Tinuviel" has always affected
                          > me as being somehow related to the story line of
                          > N. Rimskii-Korsakovs' "The Legend of the
                          > Invisible City of Kitezh".

                          An interesting idea. We do know Tolkien pottered around with the Russian language a little. But the timing here could be a little problematic. The opera, according to Wikipedia, debuted in 1907. And "The Tale of Tin�viel" (the earliest form of the legend) was first put down around 1917, I believe. I guess there could be a connection, but it might be difficult to establish � especially since Tolkien would have been a teenager in the Midlands at the time the opera was making its first splash. There are other, more obvious sources for Beren and L�thien, but the idea of Russian folklore as having a secondary effect is intereting. Mark Hooker may know more about this, as he's studied Russia(n) and Tolkien, separately and together, for quite some time.

                          Best,
                          Jase

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • alexeik@aol.com
                          ... From: visualweasel@yahoo.com To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 8 May 2007 10:49 AM Subject: [mythsoc] Re: Kalevala
                          Message 12 of 20 , May 8 10:53 AM
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                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: visualweasel@...
                            To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Tue, 8 May 2007 10:49 AM
                            Subject: [mythsoc] Re: Kalevala


                            <<Although most linguists agree in grouping Finnish and Hungarian together in the
                            Finno-Ugric Family, they're not quite as close as that might suggest – from what
                            relatively little I know (in fact, I pretty much exhausted it with "szerbusz",
                            so take this for what it's worth :). In fact, they're at opposite ends of the
                            spectrum, from Finnic on the one hand to Ugric on the other. Still, as you point
                            out, there are a number of linguistic similarities (particularly, phonological)
                            that might well be worth investigation. I don't know anything about Hungarian
                            mythology, though; what are some examples of its similarities to Finnish
                            folklore?>>
                            I recall Tolkien saying someplace (it may have been in one of the late 1960s interviews) that he found
                            it remarkable that two related languages like Finnish and Hungarian should have such different aesthetic
                            impacts, due to their very different phonetic systems. Obviously he found Finnish more attractive (giving
                            its most pleasing traits to Quenya), but he did see Hungarian as intriguing (he has a Hungarian
                            character and introduces a number of Hungarian names in _The Notion Club Papers_)and actually created a
                            language inspired by Hungarian, which he called Magu, although he doesn't seem to have given it a story
                            context (Carl and Pat would know a great deal more about it than I do).
                            No coherent Hungarian mythology in story form (on the order of the _Kalevala_) has survived, but much of
                            it can be reconstructed from folk traditions and comparison with the lore of other Finno-Ugric peoples.

                            > I also wonder as to his interest in Russian lore.
                            > "The Lay of Beren & Tinuviel" has always affected
                            > me as being somehow related to the story line of
                            > N. Rimskii-Korsakovs' "The Legend of the
                            > Invisible City of Kitezh".

                            An interesting idea. We do know Tolkien pottered around with the Russian
                            language a little. But the timing here could be a little problematic. The opera,
                            according to Wikipedia, debuted in 1907. And "The Tale of Tinúviel" (the
                            earliest form of the legend) was first put down around 1917, I believe. I guess
                            there could be a connection, but it might be difficult to establish – especially
                            since Tolkien would have been a teenager in the Midlands at the time the opera
                            was making its first splash. There are other, more obvious sources for Beren and
                            Lúthien, but the idea of Russian folklore as having a secondary effect is
                            intereting. Mark Hooker may know more about this, as he's studied Russia(n) and
                            Tolkien, separately and together, for quite some time.

                            <<
                            I've long been pointing out the many striking similarities between the story of Beren and Luthien and the
                            imagery of Russian fairy tales. Luthien's enchantment of Morgoth and his court to recapture the stolen
                            silmaril is almost a reproduction of the Firebird (Zhar-Ptitsa)'s enchantment of Kashchei and his court
                            which leads to the theft of Kashchei's external soul (as immortalised in the Stravinsky ballet, first
                            presented by the Ballets Russes in 1910). The image of Luthien riding on Huan's back also immediately
                            recalls the unique motif of 'Tsarevna na Syerom Volkye' ('the Princess on a Grey Wolf'). The question is:
                            where did Tolkien experience these Russian stories? Might he have seen Bilibin's famous illustrated
                            compendium of Russian fairy tales? If he did, it could certainly have fired his imagination.
                            Alexei
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                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Larry Swain
                            On the now dead question of edition/translation, I might add that the Oxford Classics series has an edition that I ve used parts of successfully in teaching.
                            Message 13 of 20 , May 8 11:43 AM
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                              On the now dead question of edition/translation, I might add that the Oxford Classics series has an edition that I've used parts of successfully in teaching. I don't know how "accurate" it is as far as a translation goes though.

                              Larry Swain

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                            • Patrick H. Wynne
                              ... Tolkien s Hungarian-style language is actually called _Mágol_. In the earlier of the two texts on this language it is called _Mágo_ and more closely
                              Message 14 of 20 , May 11 5:24 AM
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                                --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, alexeik@... wrote:

                                > ... [Tolkien] did see Hungarian as intriguing (he has a Hungarian
                                > character and introduces a number of Hungarian names in _The
                                > Notion Club Papers_) and actually created a language inspired by
                                > Hungarian, which he called Magu, although he doesn't seem to have
                                > given it a story context (Carl and Pat would know a great deal more
                                > about it than I do).

                                Tolkien's Hungarian-style language is actually called _Mágol_. In the
                                earlier of the two texts on this language it is called _Mágo_ and more
                                closely resembles Adunaic than Hungarian; this same text also says
                                that "Old Mágo" was the language of the children of Húrin.

                                In the later text, the language is called _Mágol_ and seems clearly
                                modeled after Hungarian in phonology and grammatical structure,
                                while retaining a strong Elvish influence as well -- it reminds me of
                                something that might have been spoken by a lost tribe of Avari who
                                had taken up residence outside Budapest for a few millennia. This
                                later text makes no internal mention of the speakers of the language,
                                though some time after (perhaps _long_ after) its completion, Tolkien
                                jotted the words "Ork, Orkish" at the top of the typescript, then struck
                                this out and wrote "No".

                                I should also note that Mágo(l) is probably the language misreported
                                by Lisa Star as "Mork" in her online "List of Tolkien's Languages":

                                http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/9902/langlst.html

                                Star opines that "Mork" is "probably related to Old English", which
                                is also not true. I presume that the name "Mork" is a mistaken con-
                                flation in Star's mind of "Mágol" and "Ork".

                                -- Patrick H. Wynne
                              • Carl F. Hostetter
                                Since accented characters in Pat s post came through mangled (at least in my mail), I ll note for any other to whom this happened that: Mágol = Magol with
                                Message 15 of 20 , May 11 6:21 AM
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                                  Since accented characters in Pat's post came through mangled (at
                                  least in my mail), I'll note for any other to whom this happened that:

                                  Mágol = Magol with accented (i.e., long) a
                                  Mágo = Mago with accented (long) a

                                  And, of course,

                                  Húrin = Hurin with accented (long) u

                                  (For the technical among us: Pat's message is UTF-8 encoded, but the
                                  Yahoo/ the mailer has defaulted to ISO-8859-1.)

                                  Carl
                                • alexeik@aol.com
                                  ... From: Aelfwine@elvish.org To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, 11 May 2007 9:21 AM Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Kalevala Since accented characters in Pat s
                                  Message 16 of 20 , May 11 10:49 AM
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                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Aelfwine@...
                                    To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Fri, 11 May 2007 9:21 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Kalevala


                                    Since accented characters in Pat's post came through mangled (at
                                    least in my mail), I'll note for any other to whom this happened that
                                    <<
                                    For some reason Pat's message never came up in my e-mail, so I'm glad you posted this (it enabled me to read the full message on the group website).
                                    I should add that all I know about Mago/Magol is what I can remember hearing from Pat at a long-ago Mythcon -- so I was hoping he'd chime in.
                                    :-)

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                                  • David Bratman
                                    ... Is this unpublished? I couldn t find this language, under any of the suggested spellings, in the NCP index. DB
                                    Message 17 of 20 , May 11 12:20 PM
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                                      At 12:24 PM 5/11/2007 +0000, Patrick H. Wynne wrote:

                                      >Tolkien's Hungarian-style language is actually called _Mágol_. In the
                                      >earlier of the two texts on this language it is called _Mágo_ and more
                                      >closely resembles Adunaic than Hungarian; this same text also says
                                      >that "Old Mágo" was the language of the children of Húrin.

                                      Is this unpublished? I couldn't find this language, under any of the
                                      suggested spellings, in the NCP index.

                                      DB
                                    • Carl F. Hostetter
                                      ... Yes, it s unpublished. For now. Carl
                                      Message 18 of 20 , May 11 12:29 PM
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                                        On May 11, 2007, at 3:20 PM, David Bratman wrote:

                                        > At 12:24 PM 5/11/2007 +0000, Patrick H. Wynne wrote:
                                        >
                                        > >Tolkien's Hungarian-style language is actually called _Mágol_. In the
                                        > >earlier of the two texts on this language it is called _Mágo_ and
                                        > more
                                        > >closely resembles Adunaic than Hungarian; this same text also says
                                        > >that "Old Mágo" was the language of the children of Húrin.
                                        >
                                        > Is this unpublished? I couldn't find this language, under any of the
                                        > suggested spellings, in the NCP index.

                                        Yes, it's unpublished. For now.

                                        Carl
                                      • lynnmaudlin
                                        ... Or obsession with a young Robin Williams...
                                        Message 19 of 20 , May 11 5:02 PM
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                                          --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick H. Wynne" <pwynne@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > I should also note that Mágo(l) is probably the language misreported
                                          > by Lisa Star as "Mork" in her online "List of Tolkien's Languages":
                                          >
                                          > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/9902/langlst.html
                                          >
                                          > Star opines that "Mork" is "probably related to Old English", which
                                          > is also not true. I presume that the name "Mork" is a mistaken con-
                                          > flation in Star's mind of "Mágol" and "Ork".


                                          Or obsession with a young Robin Williams...
                                        • David Emerson
                                          ... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! emerdavid ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com
                                          Message 20 of 20 , May 12 10:22 AM
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                                            >> Star opines that "Mork" is "probably related to Old English", which
                                            >> is also not true. I presume that the name "Mork" is a mistaken con-
                                            >> flation in Star's mind of "Mágol" and "Ork".
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >Or obsession with a young Robin Williams...

                                            HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

                                            emerdavid

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