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Re: [mythsoc] The people for the myth ?

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  • Carl F. Hostetter
    Moreover, Tolkien s point was that the British (i.e., the Celtic population of Britain) already HAD their own myths; it was the English (proper) that were
    Message 1 of 22 , Apr 5, 2005
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      Moreover, Tolkien's point was that the British (i.e., the Celtic
      population of Britain) already HAD their own myths; it was the English
      (proper) that were impoverished in this regard, and it was that lack
      that he hoped (at one time) to fill.


      On Apr 5, 2005, at 8:47 PM, Berni Phillips wrote:

      > From: <jack@...>
      >>
      >> Elizabeth is right. Tolkien was serious when he said he was a myth for
      > England. Now we know
      >> what Britian, but what is England? How is being ENglish different from
      > being British?
      >
      > Isn't England a subset of Britain? So by writing for the English means
      > you're not writing for the Celtic-origined Brits such as the Welsh and
      > the
      > Scots. They have a different flavor, as it were.
      >
      > Berni
    • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
      Thank you, David. Thank you very much. Very nice. Sure, one might wonder if it would stick, but without the repetition how are we to have the chance?
      Message 2 of 22 , Apr 6, 2005
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        Thank you, David. Thank you very much. Very nice.

        Sure, one might wonder if it would stick, but without the repetition how
        are we to have the chance? (That's my argument about changing the Book of
        Common Prayer every time we turn around, as well.)

        Lizzie

        Elizabeth Apgar Triano
        lizziewriter@...
        amor vincit omnia
        www.lizziewriter.com
        www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org
        >
        > One could attempt a basic explanation of this, but one might doubt if it
        > would stick.
        >
        > Very well. ...
      • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
        But I don t get it. If the English are Angles (and Saxons) what about all the lovely Northern tales? They stayed on the Continent I suppose? The household
        Message 3 of 22 , Apr 6, 2005
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          But I don't get it. If the English are Angles (and Saxons) what about all
          the lovely Northern tales? They stayed on the Continent I suppose? The
          household gods of the settled raiders rusted in the British climate?

          Lizzie

          Elizabeth Apgar Triano
          lizziewriter@...
          amor vincit omnia
          www.lizziewriter.com
          www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org


          > [Original Message]
          > From: Carl F. Hostetter <Aelfwine@...>
          > To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
          > Date: 4/6/2005 3:25:10 PM
          > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] The people for the myth ?
          >
          >
          >
          > Moreover, Tolkien's point was that the British (i.e., the Celtic
          > population of Britain) already HAD their own myths; it was the English
          > (proper) that were impoverished in this regard, and it was that lack
          > that he hoped (at one time) to fill.
          >
          >
        • Berni Phillips
          From: aveeris523@aol.com ... You can get certificates in that sort of thing? How tough is the program? Are there jobs in that field?
          Message 4 of 22 , Apr 6, 2005
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            From: aveeris523@...


            >How about if you have a note from a certified Anglo-Saxon?

            >Steve Gaddis


            You can get certificates in that sort of thing? How tough is the program? Are there jobs in that field?

            <ducking and running away>
            Berni
          • David Bratman
            Lizzie - The English HAD tales and myths. But they got losted. Most of what we know of Norse mythology, for instance, comes from a 13th-century Icelandic
            Message 5 of 22 , Apr 7, 2005
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              Lizzie -

              The English HAD tales and myths. But they got losted.

              Most of what we know of Norse mythology, for instance, comes from a
              13th-century Icelandic Christian with the improbable name of Snorri, who
              had a fondness for those old pagan tales and decided to write this stuff
              down. Then a manuscript survived, which is another big if.

              For various reasons this didn't happen in England. The closest thing to an
              Anglo-Saxon epic myth we have is the adventure story of a hero called
              Beowulf. It survives in a single manuscript, which almost got burned up in
              a fire around 1700. If it had, we wouldn't have it now.

              There are a few casual references here and there in old literature to
              English myths, which are probably analogues of German and Norse myths, but
              we don't know for sure, and we don't know what distinctive features they had.

              Tolkien felt this loss keenly, and dropped references to these myths into
              the Book of Lost Tales. That's why he gave it that title: he was trying to
              recover lost myths of the English. (Well, sort of.)

              DB


              At 03:33 PM 4/6/2005 -0400, you wrote:
              >
              >But I don't get it. If the English are Angles (and Saxons) what about all
              >the lovely Northern tales? They stayed on the Continent I suppose? The
              >household gods of the settled raiders rusted in the British climate?
            • jt_heyman
              ... In a way, that makes me feel sad ... as if an orphan is making up stories about what his parents were really like. No imagined tale can ever really be as
              Message 6 of 22 , Apr 11, 2005
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                David Bratman wrote:
                > There are a few casual references here and there
                > in old literature to English myths, which are
                > probably analogues of German and Norse myths,
                > but we don't know for sure, and we don't know
                > what distinctive features they had.
                >
                > Tolkien felt this loss keenly, and dropped
                > references to these myths into the Book of Lost
                > Tales. That's why he gave it that title: he was
                > trying to recover lost myths of the English.
                > (Well, sort of.)

                In a way, that makes me feel sad ... as if an orphan is making up
                stories about what his parents were really like. No imagined tale
                can ever really be as satisfying as discovering the truth, but
                perhaps it gives a small sense of comfort.

                Perhaps it is that aspect of "Lord of the Rings" that touched so many
                people in America in the 60's: they were isolated from their American
                culture and, due to the cultural losses of becoming American, they
                had no pre-American culture to which they could retreat. "Lord of
                the Rings" gave them a replacement myth around which they could
                gather. (Frodo lives, indeed.) Not what Tolkien intended, perhaps,
                but since his own desire for a replacement myth was one of the seeds
                of the trilogy, I can see how it might have happened.

                (Now, my non-scholarly opinion can be constructively criticized by
                those more learned list members ... I'm curious to see if my view has
                any merits.)
              • David Bratman
                ... It shouldn t: that s why I wrote Well, sort of -- Tolkien wasn t actually trying to reconstruct what the lost myths would have been like. He was trying
                Message 7 of 22 , Apr 11, 2005
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                  At 07:02 PM 4/11/2005 +0000, jt_heyman wrote:
                  >
                  >David Bratman wrote:
                  >>That's why he gave it that title: he was
                  >> trying to recover lost myths of the English.
                  >> (Well, sort of.)
                  >
                  >In a way, that makes me feel sad ... as if an orphan is making up
                  >stories about what his parents were really like. No imagined tale
                  >can ever really be as satisfying as discovering the truth, but
                  >perhaps it gives a small sense of comfort.

                  It shouldn't: that's why I wrote "Well, sort of" -- Tolkien wasn't actually
                  trying to reconstruct what the lost myths would have been like. He was
                  trying to create a new myth that might take its place. By the time he
                  wrote LOTR he had long since given up that idea, but he did succeed anyway:
                  except that the nation that adopted his myth wasn't the English but the
                  worldwide community of Tolkien enthusiasts. As you note.

                  What's sad is that the original myths were lost in the first place, either
                  because nobody ever wrote them down or the writings were destroyed (in this
                  case, probably some of both).

                  David Bratman
                • Mike Foster
                  Dear Lutwidgians, I m currently teaching the Ransom trilogy by CSL in my non-Tolkien course in Fantasy Literature. What is the correct pronuciation of
                  Message 8 of 22 , Apr 11, 2005
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                    Dear Lutwidgians,
                    I'm currently teaching the Ransom trilogy by CSL in my non-Tolkien
                    course in Fantasy Literature.

                    What is the correct pronuciation of "pffifiltriggi" [sp. almost
                    certainly], if there is one?

                    My guess sounds like Sylvester with a mouthful of Tweety Bird.

                    Thanks,
                    Mike


                    David Bratman wrote:

                    >At 07:02 PM 4/11/2005 +0000, jt_heyman wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >>David Bratman wrote:
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>>That's why he gave it that title: he was
                    >>>trying to recover lost myths of the English.
                    >>>(Well, sort of.)
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>In a way, that makes me feel sad ... as if an orphan is making up
                    >>stories about what his parents were really like. No imagined tale
                    >>can ever really be as satisfying as discovering the truth, but
                    >>perhaps it gives a small sense of comfort.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >It shouldn't: that's why I wrote "Well, sort of" -- Tolkien wasn't actually
                    >trying to reconstruct what the lost myths would have been like. He was
                    >trying to create a new myth that might take its place. By the time he
                    >wrote LOTR he had long since given up that idea, but he did succeed anyway:
                    >except that the nation that adopted his myth wasn't the English but the
                    >worldwide community of Tolkien enthusiasts. As you note.
                    >
                    >What's sad is that the original myths were lost in the first place, either
                    >because nobody ever wrote them down or the writings were destroyed (in this
                    >case, probably some of both).
                    >
                    >David Bratman
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                    >Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Stolzi
                    This is why reading to oneself is so comforting... I would guess (p)FIFFLE - TRIGGY. As much of the p sound as you can manage (think of Nero Wolfe saying
                    Message 9 of 22 , Apr 11, 2005
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                      This is why reading to oneself is so comforting...

                      I would guess (p)FIFFLE - TRIGGY. As much of the "p" sound as you can
                      manage (think of Nero Wolfe saying "Pfui!") and accent the FIF (primary
                      accent) and the TRIG. Hard G's.

                      Best: find a pfifltrigg and ask him.

                      Looking up that singular form, I found that pfifltriggi had crept in, rather
                      oddly, to a big fancy Philosophy course.
                      Read syllabus here:

                      http://www-phil.tamu.edu/Philosophy/Faculty/Stadelmann/251.old.html

                      (Don't understand that bit about the Popcorn.)

                      I also found two champion dogs whose breeder was obviously a Lewis fan:

                      Ketka Pattertwig, CH
                      Ketka Pfifltrigg, CH


                      Diamond Proudbrook
                    • Bonnie Callahan
                      Hi Mike: We always pronounced it Fiffle-triggy (accents on first syllables) in discussion groups. Bonnie
                      Message 10 of 22 , Apr 11, 2005
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                        Hi Mike:

                        We always pronounced it "Fiffle-triggy" (accents on first syllables) in
                        discussion groups.

                        Bonnie

                        Mike Foster wrote:

                        > Dear Lutwidgians,
                        > I'm currently teaching the Ransom trilogy by CSL in my non-Tolkien
                        > course in Fantasy Literature.
                        >
                        > What is the correct pronuciation of "pffifiltriggi" [sp. almost
                        > certainly], if there is one?
                        >
                        > My guess sounds like Sylvester with a mouthful of Tweety Bird.
                        >
                        > Thanks,
                        > Mike
                        >
                        > David Bratman wrote:
                        >
                        > >At 07:02 PM 4/11/2005 +0000, jt_heyman wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >>David Bratman wrote:
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>>That's why he gave it that title: he was
                        > >>>trying to recover lost myths of the English.
                        > >>>(Well, sort of.)
                        > >>>
                        > >>>
                        > >>In a way, that makes me feel sad ... as if an orphan is making up
                        > >>stories about what his parents were really like. No imagined tale
                        > >>can ever really be as satisfying as discovering the truth, but
                        > >>perhaps it gives a small sense of comfort.
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >It shouldn't: that's why I wrote "Well, sort of" -- Tolkien wasn't actually
                        > >trying to reconstruct what the lost myths would have been like. He was
                        > >trying to create a new myth that might take its place. By the time he
                        > >wrote LOTR he had long since given up that idea, but he did succeed anyway:
                        > >except that the nation that adopted his myth wasn't the English but the
                        > >worldwide community of Tolkien enthusiasts. As you note.
                        > >
                        > >What's sad is that the original myths were lost in the first place, either
                        > >because nobody ever wrote them down or the writings were destroyed (in this
                        > >case, probably some of both).
                        > >
                        > >David Bratman
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                        > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
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