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Re: [mythsoc] The people for the myth ?

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  • Berni Phillips
    From: ... England. Now we know ... being British? Isn t England a subset of Britain? So by writing for the English means you re not
    Message 1 of 22 , Apr 5, 2005
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      From: <jack@...>
      >
      > Elizabeth is right. Tolkien was serious when he said he was a myth for
      England. Now we know
      > what Britian, but what is England? How is being ENglish different from
      being British?

      Isn't England a subset of Britain? So by writing for the English means
      you're not writing for the Celtic-origined Brits such as the Welsh and the
      Scots. They have a different flavor, as it were.

      Berni
    • Carl F. Hostetter
      Moreover, Tolkien s point was that the British (i.e., the Celtic population of Britain) already HAD their own myths; it was the English (proper) that were
      Message 2 of 22 , Apr 5, 2005
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        Moreover, Tolkien's point was that the British (i.e., the Celtic
        population of Britain) already HAD their own myths; it was the English
        (proper) that were impoverished in this regard, and it was that lack
        that he hoped (at one time) to fill.


        On Apr 5, 2005, at 8:47 PM, Berni Phillips wrote:

        > From: <jack@...>
        >>
        >> Elizabeth is right. Tolkien was serious when he said he was a myth for
        > England. Now we know
        >> what Britian, but what is England? How is being ENglish different from
        > being British?
        >
        > Isn't England a subset of Britain? So by writing for the English means
        > you're not writing for the Celtic-origined Brits such as the Welsh and
        > the
        > Scots. They have a different flavor, as it were.
        >
        > Berni
      • Mike Foster
        Tom Shippey emphasized Tolkien s English-ness during the panel with Douglas A. Anderson and me 29 March here. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
        Message 3 of 22 , Apr 5, 2005
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          Tom Shippey emphasized Tolkien's English-ness during the panel with
          Douglas A. Anderson and me 29 March here.

          Berni Phillips wrote:

          >From: <jack@...>
          >
          >
          >>Elizabeth is right. Tolkien was serious when he said he was a myth for
          >>
          >>
          >England. Now we know
          >
          >
          >>what Britian, but what is England? How is being ENglish different from
          >>
          >>
          >being British?
          >
          >Isn't England a subset of Britain? So by writing for the English means
          >you're not writing for the Celtic-origined Brits such as the Welsh and the
          >Scots. They have a different flavor, as it were.
          >
          >Berni
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • aveeris523@aol.com
          ... Does it still count if you read the Ace bootleg trilogy? How about if you have a note from a certified Anglo-Saxon? Steve Gaddis [Non-text portions of this
          Message 4 of 22 , Apr 5, 2005
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            In a message dated 4/4/05 10:06:04 PM, dbratman@... writes:


            > >But not all English are descended from the Angles and Saxons.  Some are
            > >Celtic.  Some are Norman.  Did Tolkien write for all of them?
            >
            > That's right, Lizzie: Tolkien only wrote for pure-blood Anglo-Saxons.  All
            > of those Celts and Normans, not to mention new Britons whose ancestors came
            > from places like Africa and India, can get nothing out of Tolkien.  Readers
            > of these non-pure ancestries were seen on the streets holding his books
            > upside-down and scratching their heads, and this was so embarrassing that a
            > law was passed requiring Brits to submit verified genealogical trees
            > showing their pure Anglo-Saxon ancestry back to 400 A.D. before they're
            > allowed to read his books.  Tolkien himself had one ancestor who immigrated
            > from Germany in the 18th century, so he was not permitted to consult his
            > own published work.  That's the reason he had so much trouble completing
            > the Silmarillion.
            >
            Does it still count if you read the Ace bootleg trilogy?

            How about if you have a note from a certified Anglo-Saxon?

            Steve Gaddis


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • David Bratman
            ... One could attempt a basic explanation of this, but one might doubt if it would stick. Very well. England, like France, Iceland, Finland, etc., is a
            Message 5 of 22 , Apr 5, 2005
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              At 04:52 PM 4/5/2005 -0500, Jack wrote:

              >Elizabeth is right. Tolkien was serious when he said he was a myth for
              >England. Now we know
              >what Britian, but what is England? How is being ENglish different from being
              >British?

              One could attempt a basic explanation of this, but one might doubt if it
              would stick.

              Very well. England, like France, Iceland, Finland, etc., is a country
              based on the idea of being the land inhabited by a particular people: in
              this case, the Anglo-Saxons, or as they later became called, the English,
              who came to that land from the European continent around 500 A.D. They
              mixed to some extent with the Celts who were there before, and the Vikings
              and Normans who invaded later, and those mixtures also contributed to what
              it means to be the English, but the descendants of the Anglo-Saxons
              remained the basis of the people of England.

              Great Britain, a name that in origin predates the arrival of the
              Anglo-Saxons, is the name of the island on which England is located.
              Through a combination of conquests, political treaties, and royal
              inheritances, England became politically unified over the centuries with
              Wales (west of England on Great Britain), Scotland (north of England on
              Great Britain), and Ireland (further west on its own island). Part of
              Ireland later became independent, and the remainder is a political nation
              now called The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

              So "British" is a cover-all term to describe all citizens of that political
              nation, whether they be English, Welsh, Scottish, or whatever. Tolkien
              considered them separate ethnic countries, and called himself English, not
              British. England is by far the most populous and politically powerful part
              of the U.K. (it did all the conquering when conquering was being done), so
              it tends to get identified with the whole, to the detriment of its separate
              identity. Tolkien tried to counteract that. His original idea was that
              Iceland has the Eddas, Finland has the Kalevala, and so on, so why
              shouldn't England have its own historically-influenced and intensely ethnic
              myth cycle? And so he wrote "The Book of Lost Tales" which, divested of
              much of its specifically English connection, eventually evolved into The
              Silmarillion.

              David Bratman
            • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
              Thank you, David. Thank you very much. Very nice. Sure, one might wonder if it would stick, but without the repetition how are we to have the chance?
              Message 6 of 22 , Apr 6, 2005
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                Thank you, David. Thank you very much. Very nice.

                Sure, one might wonder if it would stick, but without the repetition how
                are we to have the chance? (That's my argument about changing the Book of
                Common Prayer every time we turn around, as well.)

                Lizzie

                Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                lizziewriter@...
                amor vincit omnia
                www.lizziewriter.com
                www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org
                >
                > One could attempt a basic explanation of this, but one might doubt if it
                > would stick.
                >
                > Very well. ...
              • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                But I don t get it. If the English are Angles (and Saxons) what about all the lovely Northern tales? They stayed on the Continent I suppose? The household
                Message 7 of 22 , Apr 6, 2005
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                  But I don't get it. If the English are Angles (and Saxons) what about all
                  the lovely Northern tales? They stayed on the Continent I suppose? The
                  household gods of the settled raiders rusted in the British climate?

                  Lizzie

                  Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                  lizziewriter@...
                  amor vincit omnia
                  www.lizziewriter.com
                  www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org


                  > [Original Message]
                  > From: Carl F. Hostetter <Aelfwine@...>
                  > To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Date: 4/6/2005 3:25:10 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] The people for the myth ?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Moreover, Tolkien's point was that the British (i.e., the Celtic
                  > population of Britain) already HAD their own myths; it was the English
                  > (proper) that were impoverished in this regard, and it was that lack
                  > that he hoped (at one time) to fill.
                  >
                  >
                • Berni Phillips
                  From: aveeris523@aol.com ... You can get certificates in that sort of thing? How tough is the program? Are there jobs in that field?
                  Message 8 of 22 , Apr 6, 2005
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                    From: aveeris523@...


                    >How about if you have a note from a certified Anglo-Saxon?

                    >Steve Gaddis


                    You can get certificates in that sort of thing? How tough is the program? Are there jobs in that field?

                    <ducking and running away>
                    Berni
                  • David Bratman
                    Lizzie - The English HAD tales and myths. But they got losted. Most of what we know of Norse mythology, for instance, comes from a 13th-century Icelandic
                    Message 9 of 22 , Apr 7, 2005
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                      Lizzie -

                      The English HAD tales and myths. But they got losted.

                      Most of what we know of Norse mythology, for instance, comes from a
                      13th-century Icelandic Christian with the improbable name of Snorri, who
                      had a fondness for those old pagan tales and decided to write this stuff
                      down. Then a manuscript survived, which is another big if.

                      For various reasons this didn't happen in England. The closest thing to an
                      Anglo-Saxon epic myth we have is the adventure story of a hero called
                      Beowulf. It survives in a single manuscript, which almost got burned up in
                      a fire around 1700. If it had, we wouldn't have it now.

                      There are a few casual references here and there in old literature to
                      English myths, which are probably analogues of German and Norse myths, but
                      we don't know for sure, and we don't know what distinctive features they had.

                      Tolkien felt this loss keenly, and dropped references to these myths into
                      the Book of Lost Tales. That's why he gave it that title: he was trying to
                      recover lost myths of the English. (Well, sort of.)

                      DB


                      At 03:33 PM 4/6/2005 -0400, you wrote:
                      >
                      >But I don't get it. If the English are Angles (and Saxons) what about all
                      >the lovely Northern tales? They stayed on the Continent I suppose? The
                      >household gods of the settled raiders rusted in the British climate?
                    • jt_heyman
                      ... In a way, that makes me feel sad ... as if an orphan is making up stories about what his parents were really like. No imagined tale can ever really be as
                      Message 10 of 22 , Apr 11, 2005
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                        David Bratman wrote:
                        > There are a few casual references here and there
                        > in old literature to English myths, which are
                        > probably analogues of German and Norse myths,
                        > but we don't know for sure, and we don't know
                        > what distinctive features they had.
                        >
                        > Tolkien felt this loss keenly, and dropped
                        > references to these myths into the Book of Lost
                        > Tales. That's why he gave it that title: he was
                        > trying to recover lost myths of the English.
                        > (Well, sort of.)

                        In a way, that makes me feel sad ... as if an orphan is making up
                        stories about what his parents were really like. No imagined tale
                        can ever really be as satisfying as discovering the truth, but
                        perhaps it gives a small sense of comfort.

                        Perhaps it is that aspect of "Lord of the Rings" that touched so many
                        people in America in the 60's: they were isolated from their American
                        culture and, due to the cultural losses of becoming American, they
                        had no pre-American culture to which they could retreat. "Lord of
                        the Rings" gave them a replacement myth around which they could
                        gather. (Frodo lives, indeed.) Not what Tolkien intended, perhaps,
                        but since his own desire for a replacement myth was one of the seeds
                        of the trilogy, I can see how it might have happened.

                        (Now, my non-scholarly opinion can be constructively criticized by
                        those more learned list members ... I'm curious to see if my view has
                        any merits.)
                      • David Bratman
                        ... It shouldn t: that s why I wrote Well, sort of -- Tolkien wasn t actually trying to reconstruct what the lost myths would have been like. He was trying
                        Message 11 of 22 , Apr 11, 2005
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                          At 07:02 PM 4/11/2005 +0000, jt_heyman wrote:
                          >
                          >David Bratman wrote:
                          >>That's why he gave it that title: he was
                          >> trying to recover lost myths of the English.
                          >> (Well, sort of.)
                          >
                          >In a way, that makes me feel sad ... as if an orphan is making up
                          >stories about what his parents were really like. No imagined tale
                          >can ever really be as satisfying as discovering the truth, but
                          >perhaps it gives a small sense of comfort.

                          It shouldn't: that's why I wrote "Well, sort of" -- Tolkien wasn't actually
                          trying to reconstruct what the lost myths would have been like. He was
                          trying to create a new myth that might take its place. By the time he
                          wrote LOTR he had long since given up that idea, but he did succeed anyway:
                          except that the nation that adopted his myth wasn't the English but the
                          worldwide community of Tolkien enthusiasts. As you note.

                          What's sad is that the original myths were lost in the first place, either
                          because nobody ever wrote them down or the writings were destroyed (in this
                          case, probably some of both).

                          David Bratman
                        • Mike Foster
                          Dear Lutwidgians, I m currently teaching the Ransom trilogy by CSL in my non-Tolkien course in Fantasy Literature. What is the correct pronuciation of
                          Message 12 of 22 , Apr 11, 2005
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                            Dear Lutwidgians,
                            I'm currently teaching the Ransom trilogy by CSL in my non-Tolkien
                            course in Fantasy Literature.

                            What is the correct pronuciation of "pffifiltriggi" [sp. almost
                            certainly], if there is one?

                            My guess sounds like Sylvester with a mouthful of Tweety Bird.

                            Thanks,
                            Mike


                            David Bratman wrote:

                            >At 07:02 PM 4/11/2005 +0000, jt_heyman wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >>David Bratman wrote:
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>>That's why he gave it that title: he was
                            >>>trying to recover lost myths of the English.
                            >>>(Well, sort of.)
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>In a way, that makes me feel sad ... as if an orphan is making up
                            >>stories about what his parents were really like. No imagined tale
                            >>can ever really be as satisfying as discovering the truth, but
                            >>perhaps it gives a small sense of comfort.
                            >>
                            >>
                            >
                            >It shouldn't: that's why I wrote "Well, sort of" -- Tolkien wasn't actually
                            >trying to reconstruct what the lost myths would have been like. He was
                            >trying to create a new myth that might take its place. By the time he
                            >wrote LOTR he had long since given up that idea, but he did succeed anyway:
                            >except that the nation that adopted his myth wasn't the English but the
                            >worldwide community of Tolkien enthusiasts. As you note.
                            >
                            >What's sad is that the original myths were lost in the first place, either
                            >because nobody ever wrote them down or the writings were destroyed (in this
                            >case, probably some of both).
                            >
                            >David Bratman
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                            >Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Stolzi
                            This is why reading to oneself is so comforting... I would guess (p)FIFFLE - TRIGGY. As much of the p sound as you can manage (think of Nero Wolfe saying
                            Message 13 of 22 , Apr 11, 2005
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                              This is why reading to oneself is so comforting...

                              I would guess (p)FIFFLE - TRIGGY. As much of the "p" sound as you can
                              manage (think of Nero Wolfe saying "Pfui!") and accent the FIF (primary
                              accent) and the TRIG. Hard G's.

                              Best: find a pfifltrigg and ask him.

                              Looking up that singular form, I found that pfifltriggi had crept in, rather
                              oddly, to a big fancy Philosophy course.
                              Read syllabus here:

                              http://www-phil.tamu.edu/Philosophy/Faculty/Stadelmann/251.old.html

                              (Don't understand that bit about the Popcorn.)

                              I also found two champion dogs whose breeder was obviously a Lewis fan:

                              Ketka Pattertwig, CH
                              Ketka Pfifltrigg, CH


                              Diamond Proudbrook
                            • Bonnie Callahan
                              Hi Mike: We always pronounced it Fiffle-triggy (accents on first syllables) in discussion groups. Bonnie
                              Message 14 of 22 , Apr 11, 2005
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                                Hi Mike:

                                We always pronounced it "Fiffle-triggy" (accents on first syllables) in
                                discussion groups.

                                Bonnie

                                Mike Foster wrote:

                                > Dear Lutwidgians,
                                > I'm currently teaching the Ransom trilogy by CSL in my non-Tolkien
                                > course in Fantasy Literature.
                                >
                                > What is the correct pronuciation of "pffifiltriggi" [sp. almost
                                > certainly], if there is one?
                                >
                                > My guess sounds like Sylvester with a mouthful of Tweety Bird.
                                >
                                > Thanks,
                                > Mike
                                >
                                > David Bratman wrote:
                                >
                                > >At 07:02 PM 4/11/2005 +0000, jt_heyman wrote:
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >>David Bratman wrote:
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >>>That's why he gave it that title: he was
                                > >>>trying to recover lost myths of the English.
                                > >>>(Well, sort of.)
                                > >>>
                                > >>>
                                > >>In a way, that makes me feel sad ... as if an orphan is making up
                                > >>stories about what his parents were really like. No imagined tale
                                > >>can ever really be as satisfying as discovering the truth, but
                                > >>perhaps it gives a small sense of comfort.
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >
                                > >It shouldn't: that's why I wrote "Well, sort of" -- Tolkien wasn't actually
                                > >trying to reconstruct what the lost myths would have been like. He was
                                > >trying to create a new myth that might take its place. By the time he
                                > >wrote LOTR he had long since given up that idea, but he did succeed anyway:
                                > >except that the nation that adopted his myth wasn't the English but the
                                > >worldwide community of Tolkien enthusiasts. As you note.
                                > >
                                > >What's sad is that the original myths were lost in the first place, either
                                > >because nobody ever wrote them down or the writings were destroyed (in this
                                > >case, probably some of both).
                                > >
                                > >David Bratman
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                                > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
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