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Re: [mythsoc] The people for the myth ?

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  • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
    *aww* That s it? That s all? Just the modern WWI-WWII English Bill & Jane kinda folk? Of course, England is so thick with history, not like here, so perhaps
    Message 1 of 22 , Apr 4 10:04 AM
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      *aww* That's it? That's all? Just the modern WWI-WWII English Bill &
      Jane kinda folk?

      Of course, England is so thick with history, not like here, so perhaps that
      is enough of a definition of English??

      thanks,

      Lizzie

      Elizabeth Apgar Triano
      lizziewriter@...
      amor vincit omnia
      www.lizziewriter.com
      www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org


      > [Original Message]
      > From: <alexeik@...>
      > To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
      > Date: 4/4/2005 12:37:30 PM
      > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] The people for the myth ?
      >
      >
      >
      > In a message dated 4/3/5 6:27:26 PM, Lizzie triano wrote:
      >
      > <<Please could someone explain in simple or even redundant terms exactly
      who
      > is meant by the English that Tolkien wrote his myth for. >>
      >
      > It was the people who speak English and live in England and think of
      > themselves as English.
      > Alexei
      >
    • David Bratman
      ... That s right, Lizzie: Tolkien only wrote for pure-blood Anglo-Saxons. All of those Celts and Normans, not to mention new Britons whose ancestors came from
      Message 2 of 22 , Apr 4 9:55 PM
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        At 02:28 PM 4/4/2005 -0400, Lizzie wrote:

        >But not all English are descended from the Angles and Saxons. Some are
        >Celtic. Some are Norman. Did Tolkien write for all of them?

        That's right, Lizzie: Tolkien only wrote for pure-blood Anglo-Saxons. All
        of those Celts and Normans, not to mention new Britons whose ancestors came
        from places like Africa and India, can get nothing out of Tolkien. Readers
        of these non-pure ancestries were seen on the streets holding his books
        upside-down and scratching their heads, and this was so embarrassing that a
        law was passed requiring Brits to submit verified genealogical trees
        showing their pure Anglo-Saxon ancestry back to 400 A.D. before they're
        allowed to read his books. Tolkien himself had one ancestor who immigrated
        from Germany in the 18th century, so he was not permitted to consult his
        own published work. That's the reason he had so much trouble completing
        the Silmarillion.

        (sigh)
      • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
        That s quite amusing, but it doesn t help. So I guess I can take that as a Yeah, he wrote for the basic 20th Century mix, the same way that someone today,
        Message 3 of 22 , Apr 5 5:59 AM
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          That's quite amusing, but it doesn't help. So I guess I can take that as a
          "Yeah, he wrote for the basic 20th Century mix," the same way that someone
          today, here in the States, could attempt, with probably less success, to
          create an epic for the various waves of wilfully or accidentally murderous
          ethnic groups that have emigrated (and mixed) over the years.


          Oh, wait a sec: that would be Johnny Cash.


          You know, not everyone is as thick-skinned as I am. Someone else might
          have been hurt by that bit of entertaining prose.


          Thanks.

          Lizzie

          Elizabeth Apgar Triano
          lizziewriter@...
          amor vincit omnia
          www.lizziewriter.com
          www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org


          > [Original Message]
          > From: David Bratman <dbratman@...>
          > To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
          > Date: 4/5/2005 1:05:09 AM
          > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] The people for the myth ?
          >
          >
          > At 02:28 PM 4/4/2005 -0400, Lizzie wrote:
          >
          > >But not all English are descended from the Angles and Saxons. Some are
          > >Celtic. Some are Norman. Did Tolkien write for all of them?
          >
          > That's right, Lizzie: Tolkien only wrote for pure-blood Anglo-Saxons. All
          > of those Celts and Normans, not to mention new Britons whose ancestors
          came
          > from places like Africa and India, can get nothing out of Tolkien.
          Readers
          > of these non-pure ancestries were seen on the streets holding his books
          > upside-down and scratching their heads, and this was so embarrassing that
          a
          > law was passed requiring Brits to submit verified genealogical trees
          > showing their pure Anglo-Saxon ancestry back to 400 A.D. before they're
          > allowed to read his books. Tolkien himself had one ancestor who
          immigrated
          > from Germany in the 18th century, so he was not permitted to consult his
          > own published work. That's the reason he had so much trouble completing
          > the Silmarillion.
          >
          > (sigh)
          >
          >
        • jack@greenmanreview.com
          ... Elizabeth is right. Tolkien was serious when he said he was a myth for England. Now we know what Britian, but what is England? How is being ENglish
          Message 4 of 22 , Apr 5 2:52 PM
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            > That's quite amusing, but it doesn't help. So I guess I can take that as a
            > "Yeah, he wrote for the basic 20th Century mix," the same way that someone
            > today, here in the States, could attempt, with probably less success, to
            > create an epic for the various waves of wilfully or accidentally murderous
            > ethnic groups that have emigrated (and mixed) over the years.
            >
            >
            > Oh, wait a sec: that would be Johnny Cash.
            >
            >
            > You know, not everyone is as thick-skinned as I am. Someone else might
            > have been hurt by that bit of entertaining prose.

            Elizabeth is right. Tolkien was serious when he said he was a myth for England. Now we know
            what Britian, but what is England? How is being ENglish different from being British?
          • Berni Phillips
            From: ... England. Now we know ... being British? Isn t England a subset of Britain? So by writing for the English means you re not
            Message 5 of 22 , Apr 5 5:47 PM
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              From: <jack@...>
              >
              > Elizabeth is right. Tolkien was serious when he said he was a myth for
              England. Now we know
              > what Britian, but what is England? How is being ENglish different from
              being British?

              Isn't England a subset of Britain? So by writing for the English means
              you're not writing for the Celtic-origined Brits such as the Welsh and the
              Scots. They have a different flavor, as it were.

              Berni
            • Carl F. Hostetter
              Moreover, Tolkien s point was that the British (i.e., the Celtic population of Britain) already HAD their own myths; it was the English (proper) that were
              Message 6 of 22 , Apr 5 5:58 PM
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                Moreover, Tolkien's point was that the British (i.e., the Celtic
                population of Britain) already HAD their own myths; it was the English
                (proper) that were impoverished in this regard, and it was that lack
                that he hoped (at one time) to fill.


                On Apr 5, 2005, at 8:47 PM, Berni Phillips wrote:

                > From: <jack@...>
                >>
                >> Elizabeth is right. Tolkien was serious when he said he was a myth for
                > England. Now we know
                >> what Britian, but what is England? How is being ENglish different from
                > being British?
                >
                > Isn't England a subset of Britain? So by writing for the English means
                > you're not writing for the Celtic-origined Brits such as the Welsh and
                > the
                > Scots. They have a different flavor, as it were.
                >
                > Berni
              • Mike Foster
                Tom Shippey emphasized Tolkien s English-ness during the panel with Douglas A. Anderson and me 29 March here. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
                Message 7 of 22 , Apr 5 8:31 PM
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                  Tom Shippey emphasized Tolkien's English-ness during the panel with
                  Douglas A. Anderson and me 29 March here.

                  Berni Phillips wrote:

                  >From: <jack@...>
                  >
                  >
                  >>Elizabeth is right. Tolkien was serious when he said he was a myth for
                  >>
                  >>
                  >England. Now we know
                  >
                  >
                  >>what Britian, but what is England? How is being ENglish different from
                  >>
                  >>
                  >being British?
                  >
                  >Isn't England a subset of Britain? So by writing for the English means
                  >you're not writing for the Celtic-origined Brits such as the Welsh and the
                  >Scots. They have a different flavor, as it were.
                  >
                  >Berni
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • aveeris523@aol.com
                  ... Does it still count if you read the Ace bootleg trilogy? How about if you have a note from a certified Anglo-Saxon? Steve Gaddis [Non-text portions of this
                  Message 8 of 22 , Apr 5 8:32 PM
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                    In a message dated 4/4/05 10:06:04 PM, dbratman@... writes:


                    > >But not all English are descended from the Angles and Saxons.  Some are
                    > >Celtic.  Some are Norman.  Did Tolkien write for all of them?
                    >
                    > That's right, Lizzie: Tolkien only wrote for pure-blood Anglo-Saxons.  All
                    > of those Celts and Normans, not to mention new Britons whose ancestors came
                    > from places like Africa and India, can get nothing out of Tolkien.  Readers
                    > of these non-pure ancestries were seen on the streets holding his books
                    > upside-down and scratching their heads, and this was so embarrassing that a
                    > law was passed requiring Brits to submit verified genealogical trees
                    > showing their pure Anglo-Saxon ancestry back to 400 A.D. before they're
                    > allowed to read his books.  Tolkien himself had one ancestor who immigrated
                    > from Germany in the 18th century, so he was not permitted to consult his
                    > own published work.  That's the reason he had so much trouble completing
                    > the Silmarillion.
                    >
                    Does it still count if you read the Ace bootleg trilogy?

                    How about if you have a note from a certified Anglo-Saxon?

                    Steve Gaddis


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • David Bratman
                    ... One could attempt a basic explanation of this, but one might doubt if it would stick. Very well. England, like France, Iceland, Finland, etc., is a
                    Message 9 of 22 , Apr 5 9:14 PM
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                      At 04:52 PM 4/5/2005 -0500, Jack wrote:

                      >Elizabeth is right. Tolkien was serious when he said he was a myth for
                      >England. Now we know
                      >what Britian, but what is England? How is being ENglish different from being
                      >British?

                      One could attempt a basic explanation of this, but one might doubt if it
                      would stick.

                      Very well. England, like France, Iceland, Finland, etc., is a country
                      based on the idea of being the land inhabited by a particular people: in
                      this case, the Anglo-Saxons, or as they later became called, the English,
                      who came to that land from the European continent around 500 A.D. They
                      mixed to some extent with the Celts who were there before, and the Vikings
                      and Normans who invaded later, and those mixtures also contributed to what
                      it means to be the English, but the descendants of the Anglo-Saxons
                      remained the basis of the people of England.

                      Great Britain, a name that in origin predates the arrival of the
                      Anglo-Saxons, is the name of the island on which England is located.
                      Through a combination of conquests, political treaties, and royal
                      inheritances, England became politically unified over the centuries with
                      Wales (west of England on Great Britain), Scotland (north of England on
                      Great Britain), and Ireland (further west on its own island). Part of
                      Ireland later became independent, and the remainder is a political nation
                      now called The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

                      So "British" is a cover-all term to describe all citizens of that political
                      nation, whether they be English, Welsh, Scottish, or whatever. Tolkien
                      considered them separate ethnic countries, and called himself English, not
                      British. England is by far the most populous and politically powerful part
                      of the U.K. (it did all the conquering when conquering was being done), so
                      it tends to get identified with the whole, to the detriment of its separate
                      identity. Tolkien tried to counteract that. His original idea was that
                      Iceland has the Eddas, Finland has the Kalevala, and so on, so why
                      shouldn't England have its own historically-influenced and intensely ethnic
                      myth cycle? And so he wrote "The Book of Lost Tales" which, divested of
                      much of its specifically English connection, eventually evolved into The
                      Silmarillion.

                      David Bratman
                    • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                      Thank you, David. Thank you very much. Very nice. Sure, one might wonder if it would stick, but without the repetition how are we to have the chance?
                      Message 10 of 22 , Apr 6 5:54 AM
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                        Thank you, David. Thank you very much. Very nice.

                        Sure, one might wonder if it would stick, but without the repetition how
                        are we to have the chance? (That's my argument about changing the Book of
                        Common Prayer every time we turn around, as well.)

                        Lizzie

                        Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                        lizziewriter@...
                        amor vincit omnia
                        www.lizziewriter.com
                        www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org
                        >
                        > One could attempt a basic explanation of this, but one might doubt if it
                        > would stick.
                        >
                        > Very well. ...
                      • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                        But I don t get it. If the English are Angles (and Saxons) what about all the lovely Northern tales? They stayed on the Continent I suppose? The household
                        Message 11 of 22 , Apr 6 12:33 PM
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                          But I don't get it. If the English are Angles (and Saxons) what about all
                          the lovely Northern tales? They stayed on the Continent I suppose? The
                          household gods of the settled raiders rusted in the British climate?

                          Lizzie

                          Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                          lizziewriter@...
                          amor vincit omnia
                          www.lizziewriter.com
                          www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org


                          > [Original Message]
                          > From: Carl F. Hostetter <Aelfwine@...>
                          > To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Date: 4/6/2005 3:25:10 PM
                          > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] The people for the myth ?
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Moreover, Tolkien's point was that the British (i.e., the Celtic
                          > population of Britain) already HAD their own myths; it was the English
                          > (proper) that were impoverished in this regard, and it was that lack
                          > that he hoped (at one time) to fill.
                          >
                          >
                        • Berni Phillips
                          From: aveeris523@aol.com ... You can get certificates in that sort of thing? How tough is the program? Are there jobs in that field?
                          Message 12 of 22 , Apr 6 4:08 PM
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                            From: aveeris523@...


                            >How about if you have a note from a certified Anglo-Saxon?

                            >Steve Gaddis


                            You can get certificates in that sort of thing? How tough is the program? Are there jobs in that field?

                            <ducking and running away>
                            Berni
                          • David Bratman
                            Lizzie - The English HAD tales and myths. But they got losted. Most of what we know of Norse mythology, for instance, comes from a 13th-century Icelandic
                            Message 13 of 22 , Apr 7 10:50 PM
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                              Lizzie -

                              The English HAD tales and myths. But they got losted.

                              Most of what we know of Norse mythology, for instance, comes from a
                              13th-century Icelandic Christian with the improbable name of Snorri, who
                              had a fondness for those old pagan tales and decided to write this stuff
                              down. Then a manuscript survived, which is another big if.

                              For various reasons this didn't happen in England. The closest thing to an
                              Anglo-Saxon epic myth we have is the adventure story of a hero called
                              Beowulf. It survives in a single manuscript, which almost got burned up in
                              a fire around 1700. If it had, we wouldn't have it now.

                              There are a few casual references here and there in old literature to
                              English myths, which are probably analogues of German and Norse myths, but
                              we don't know for sure, and we don't know what distinctive features they had.

                              Tolkien felt this loss keenly, and dropped references to these myths into
                              the Book of Lost Tales. That's why he gave it that title: he was trying to
                              recover lost myths of the English. (Well, sort of.)

                              DB


                              At 03:33 PM 4/6/2005 -0400, you wrote:
                              >
                              >But I don't get it. If the English are Angles (and Saxons) what about all
                              >the lovely Northern tales? They stayed on the Continent I suppose? The
                              >household gods of the settled raiders rusted in the British climate?
                            • jt_heyman
                              ... In a way, that makes me feel sad ... as if an orphan is making up stories about what his parents were really like. No imagined tale can ever really be as
                              Message 14 of 22 , Apr 11 12:02 PM
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                                David Bratman wrote:
                                > There are a few casual references here and there
                                > in old literature to English myths, which are
                                > probably analogues of German and Norse myths,
                                > but we don't know for sure, and we don't know
                                > what distinctive features they had.
                                >
                                > Tolkien felt this loss keenly, and dropped
                                > references to these myths into the Book of Lost
                                > Tales. That's why he gave it that title: he was
                                > trying to recover lost myths of the English.
                                > (Well, sort of.)

                                In a way, that makes me feel sad ... as if an orphan is making up
                                stories about what his parents were really like. No imagined tale
                                can ever really be as satisfying as discovering the truth, but
                                perhaps it gives a small sense of comfort.

                                Perhaps it is that aspect of "Lord of the Rings" that touched so many
                                people in America in the 60's: they were isolated from their American
                                culture and, due to the cultural losses of becoming American, they
                                had no pre-American culture to which they could retreat. "Lord of
                                the Rings" gave them a replacement myth around which they could
                                gather. (Frodo lives, indeed.) Not what Tolkien intended, perhaps,
                                but since his own desire for a replacement myth was one of the seeds
                                of the trilogy, I can see how it might have happened.

                                (Now, my non-scholarly opinion can be constructively criticized by
                                those more learned list members ... I'm curious to see if my view has
                                any merits.)
                              • David Bratman
                                ... It shouldn t: that s why I wrote Well, sort of -- Tolkien wasn t actually trying to reconstruct what the lost myths would have been like. He was trying
                                Message 15 of 22 , Apr 11 12:11 PM
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                                  At 07:02 PM 4/11/2005 +0000, jt_heyman wrote:
                                  >
                                  >David Bratman wrote:
                                  >>That's why he gave it that title: he was
                                  >> trying to recover lost myths of the English.
                                  >> (Well, sort of.)
                                  >
                                  >In a way, that makes me feel sad ... as if an orphan is making up
                                  >stories about what his parents were really like. No imagined tale
                                  >can ever really be as satisfying as discovering the truth, but
                                  >perhaps it gives a small sense of comfort.

                                  It shouldn't: that's why I wrote "Well, sort of" -- Tolkien wasn't actually
                                  trying to reconstruct what the lost myths would have been like. He was
                                  trying to create a new myth that might take its place. By the time he
                                  wrote LOTR he had long since given up that idea, but he did succeed anyway:
                                  except that the nation that adopted his myth wasn't the English but the
                                  worldwide community of Tolkien enthusiasts. As you note.

                                  What's sad is that the original myths were lost in the first place, either
                                  because nobody ever wrote them down or the writings were destroyed (in this
                                  case, probably some of both).

                                  David Bratman
                                • Mike Foster
                                  Dear Lutwidgians, I m currently teaching the Ransom trilogy by CSL in my non-Tolkien course in Fantasy Literature. What is the correct pronuciation of
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Apr 11 3:34 PM
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                                    Dear Lutwidgians,
                                    I'm currently teaching the Ransom trilogy by CSL in my non-Tolkien
                                    course in Fantasy Literature.

                                    What is the correct pronuciation of "pffifiltriggi" [sp. almost
                                    certainly], if there is one?

                                    My guess sounds like Sylvester with a mouthful of Tweety Bird.

                                    Thanks,
                                    Mike


                                    David Bratman wrote:

                                    >At 07:02 PM 4/11/2005 +0000, jt_heyman wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >>David Bratman wrote:
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>>That's why he gave it that title: he was
                                    >>>trying to recover lost myths of the English.
                                    >>>(Well, sort of.)
                                    >>>
                                    >>>
                                    >>In a way, that makes me feel sad ... as if an orphan is making up
                                    >>stories about what his parents were really like. No imagined tale
                                    >>can ever really be as satisfying as discovering the truth, but
                                    >>perhaps it gives a small sense of comfort.
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    >It shouldn't: that's why I wrote "Well, sort of" -- Tolkien wasn't actually
                                    >trying to reconstruct what the lost myths would have been like. He was
                                    >trying to create a new myth that might take its place. By the time he
                                    >wrote LOTR he had long since given up that idea, but he did succeed anyway:
                                    >except that the nation that adopted his myth wasn't the English but the
                                    >worldwide community of Tolkien enthusiasts. As you note.
                                    >
                                    >What's sad is that the original myths were lost in the first place, either
                                    >because nobody ever wrote them down or the writings were destroyed (in this
                                    >case, probably some of both).
                                    >
                                    >David Bratman
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                                    >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Stolzi
                                    This is why reading to oneself is so comforting... I would guess (p)FIFFLE - TRIGGY. As much of the p sound as you can manage (think of Nero Wolfe saying
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Apr 11 6:09 PM
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                                      This is why reading to oneself is so comforting...

                                      I would guess (p)FIFFLE - TRIGGY. As much of the "p" sound as you can
                                      manage (think of Nero Wolfe saying "Pfui!") and accent the FIF (primary
                                      accent) and the TRIG. Hard G's.

                                      Best: find a pfifltrigg and ask him.

                                      Looking up that singular form, I found that pfifltriggi had crept in, rather
                                      oddly, to a big fancy Philosophy course.
                                      Read syllabus here:

                                      http://www-phil.tamu.edu/Philosophy/Faculty/Stadelmann/251.old.html

                                      (Don't understand that bit about the Popcorn.)

                                      I also found two champion dogs whose breeder was obviously a Lewis fan:

                                      Ketka Pattertwig, CH
                                      Ketka Pfifltrigg, CH


                                      Diamond Proudbrook
                                    • Bonnie Callahan
                                      Hi Mike: We always pronounced it Fiffle-triggy (accents on first syllables) in discussion groups. Bonnie
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Apr 11 9:16 PM
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                                        Hi Mike:

                                        We always pronounced it "Fiffle-triggy" (accents on first syllables) in
                                        discussion groups.

                                        Bonnie

                                        Mike Foster wrote:

                                        > Dear Lutwidgians,
                                        > I'm currently teaching the Ransom trilogy by CSL in my non-Tolkien
                                        > course in Fantasy Literature.
                                        >
                                        > What is the correct pronuciation of "pffifiltriggi" [sp. almost
                                        > certainly], if there is one?
                                        >
                                        > My guess sounds like Sylvester with a mouthful of Tweety Bird.
                                        >
                                        > Thanks,
                                        > Mike
                                        >
                                        > David Bratman wrote:
                                        >
                                        > >At 07:02 PM 4/11/2005 +0000, jt_heyman wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >>David Bratman wrote:
                                        > >>
                                        > >>
                                        > >>>That's why he gave it that title: he was
                                        > >>>trying to recover lost myths of the English.
                                        > >>>(Well, sort of.)
                                        > >>>
                                        > >>>
                                        > >>In a way, that makes me feel sad ... as if an orphan is making up
                                        > >>stories about what his parents were really like. No imagined tale
                                        > >>can ever really be as satisfying as discovering the truth, but
                                        > >>perhaps it gives a small sense of comfort.
                                        > >>
                                        > >>
                                        > >
                                        > >It shouldn't: that's why I wrote "Well, sort of" -- Tolkien wasn't actually
                                        > >trying to reconstruct what the lost myths would have been like. He was
                                        > >trying to create a new myth that might take its place. By the time he
                                        > >wrote LOTR he had long since given up that idea, but he did succeed anyway:
                                        > >except that the nation that adopted his myth wasn't the English but the
                                        > >worldwide community of Tolkien enthusiasts. As you note.
                                        > >
                                        > >What's sad is that the original myths were lost in the first place, either
                                        > >because nobody ever wrote them down or the writings were destroyed (in this
                                        > >case, probably some of both).
                                        > >
                                        > >David Bratman
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                                        > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
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