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Re: [mythsoc] Query

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  • SusanPal@aol.com
    In a message dated 12/13/2004 7:32:56 AM Pacific Standard Time, jbcroft@ou.edu writes: Good ideas, David. And how about world and character building for
    Message 1 of 27 , Dec 13, 2004
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      In a message dated 12/13/2004 7:32:56 AM Pacific Standard Time,
      jbcroft@... writes:

      "Good ideas, David. And how about world and character building for book
      1 (craft of writing -- picaresque nature of incidents actually reveal a
      lot about characters, etc.) and leadership, responsibility, and
      self-sacrifice for book 2?"


      Very helpful; thanks, Janet!

      Susan






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • David Bratman
      ... I was going to suggest Faerie for Book 2, which is the book with all the Elven lands in it. Leadership, responsibility, and self-sacrifice are really
      Message 2 of 27 , Dec 13, 2004
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        At 09:20 AM 12/13/2004 -0600, Janet Brennan Croft wrote:
        >
        >Good ideas, David. And how about world and character building for book
        >1 (craft of writing -- picaresque nature of incidents actually reveal a
        >lot about characters, etc.) and leadership, responsibility, and
        >self-sacrifice for book 2?

        I was going to suggest Faerie for Book 2, which is the book with all the
        Elven lands in it. "Leadership, responsibility, and self-sacrifice" are
        really part of any meaningful discussion of the morality of war and facing
        death, which I suggested as the themes for Books 3 and 5. And also can be
        considered part of eucatastrophe (Book 6). I tend to think the leadership
        functions, though certainly present in Book 2, are (despite Gandalf's
        sacrifice) not as pervasive a theme as they are later on.

        David Bratman
      • Mike Foster
        Thanks, Janet & David, I am currently up to my earlobes in final exams, with Fantasy Lit. tomorrow the last in the dance queue. So as Bokonon says: Busy busy
        Message 3 of 27 , Dec 13, 2004
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          Thanks, Janet & David,
          I am currently up to my earlobes in final exams, with Fantasy Lit.
          tomorrow the last in the dance queue. So as Bokonon says: 'Busy busy busy'.

          I have passed this query along to a former student, now a smial member
          and one of the horde eight that came up to Milwaukee from Far
          Westfarthingshire, who's taught Tolkien at the grade 7 level for some
          years. This seemed apt to the original query. So perhaps Lori Alwood
          will be able to help.

          Houghton-Mifflin has useful study guides for grade/jr. high/high school
          teachers approaching Tolkien that are a good starting point; available
          for the asking.

          Wise idea: enlist the help of your school librarian. I did. But then I
          was already married to her.

          Mike

          Croft, Janet B. wrote:

          >Good ideas, David. And how about world and character building for book
          >1 (craft of writing -- picaresque nature of incidents actually reveal a
          >lot about characters, etc.) and leadership, responsibility, and
          >self-sacrifice for book 2?
          >
          >
          >Janet Brennan Croft
          >
          >-----Original Message-----
          >From: David Bratman [mailto:dbratman@...]
          >Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 12:15 AM
          >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
          >Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Query
          >
          >
          >I hope that Mike Foster, Tolkien instructor par excellence, has time to
          >respond to this.
          >
          >My inclination would be to try to lean away from the running-commentary
          >model, towards the idea of highlighting for each session a major theme
          >of LOTR that's particularly appropriate for that day's Book. Perhaps
          >the morality of war for Book 3, the nature of evil for Book 4, death and
          >the desire for deathlessness in Book 5, eucatastrophe for Book 6.
          >
          >
          >At 05:14 PM 12/11/2004 -0500, Susan wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          >>Next summer I'll be teaching an online seminar about THE LORD OF THE
          >>RINGS for gifted-and-talented kids. I've taught writing seminars for
          >>this same outfit twice now, and the ages range from seven to eighteen.
          >>
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          >>They're all enormously precocious intellectually, but the
          >>emotional-maturity level
          >>
          >>
          >varies
          >
          >
          >>hugely, as you'd expect.
          >>
          >>Right now I'm trying to figure out how to structure this seminar and
          >>what approach to take. These courses are normally five days, but I
          >>think I'll recommend that this one be six, so we can discuss one Book
          >>of LotR a day;
          >>
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
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          >
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          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • SusanPal@aol.com
          Mike and others, Thank you for your help and ideas. Please feel free to e-mail me privately if it seems more appropriate not to clutter the list with this.
          Message 4 of 27 , Dec 13, 2004
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            Mike and others,

            Thank you for your help and ideas. Please feel free to e-mail me privately
            if it seems more appropriate not to clutter the list with this.

            Best wishes,
            Susan Palwick


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Beth Russell
            ... From: SusanPal@aol.com [mailto:SusanPal@aol.com] Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 6:51 PM To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com; lindal@bumail.bradley.edu Subject:
            Message 5 of 27 , Dec 14, 2004
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              -----Original Message-----
              From: SusanPal@... [mailto:SusanPal@...]
              Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 6:51 PM
              To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com; lindal@...
              Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Query


              >Mike and others,

              >Thank you for your help and ideas. Please feel free to e-mail me
              >privately
              >if it seems more appropriate not to clutter the list with this.

              >Best wishes,
              >Susan Palwick


              Dear Susan and others, particularly Mike and David,

              I have been reading this series of messages avidly!! Will be teaching a
              course, "Enjoying The Lord of the Rings", in the continuing education
              dept. at our local branch of LSU in February. Have 6 2-hour sessions.
              Cant decide whether I have too much to cram in, or should I worry about
              filling up all that time!

              My general plan for each night is to spend one hour discussing parts of
              the text (one Book per session) and one hour talking about themes. But
              I have no idea of the size of the class or the age of the participants.
              For the text I thought of spending more time on scenes that are
              significantly different in the PJ version, e.g., the Council of Elrond
              vs. the Squabble of Elrond. However, I do not just want to do
              movie-bashing.

              I like David's idea of a major theme for each Book.

              Any comments?

              Beth



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




              The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
              Yahoo! Groups Links
            • Mike Foster
              Beth, Keep it loose. Be ready to wait for answers to your questions. Good idea to get stories of when/how each first encountered Tolkien. Amble, rather than
              Message 6 of 27 , Dec 14, 2004
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                Beth,
                Keep it loose. Be ready to wait for answers to your questions. Good
                idea to get stories of when/how each first encountered Tolkien. Amble,
                rather than march, through the books. Suggest members pick a
                favorite/interesting character to focus on as books proceed.

                I've a few other ideas, but enjoy it, above all.

                Mike

                Beth Russell wrote:

                >
                >-----Original Message-----
                >From: SusanPal@... [mailto:SusanPal@...]
                >Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 6:51 PM
                >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com; lindal@...
                >Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Query
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>Mike and others,
                >>
                >>
                >
                >
                >
                >>Thank you for your help and ideas. Please feel free to e-mail me
                >>privately
                >>if it seems more appropriate not to clutter the list with this.
                >>
                >>
                >
                >
                >
                >>Best wishes,
                >>Susan Palwick
                >>
                >>
                >
                >
                >Dear Susan and others, particularly Mike and David,
                >
                >I have been reading this series of messages avidly!! Will be teaching a
                >course, "Enjoying The Lord of the Rings", in the continuing education
                >dept. at our local branch of LSU in February. Have 6 2-hour sessions.
                >Cant decide whether I have too much to cram in, or should I worry about
                >filling up all that time!
                >
                >My general plan for each night is to spend one hour discussing parts of
                >the text (one Book per session) and one hour talking about themes. But
                >I have no idea of the size of the class or the age of the participants.
                >For the text I thought of spending more time on scenes that are
                >significantly different in the PJ version, e.g., the Council of Elrond
                >vs. the Squabble of Elrond. However, I do not just want to do
                >movie-bashing.
                >
                >I like David's idea of a major theme for each Book.
                >
                >Any comments?
                >
                >Beth
                >
                >
                >
                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Beth Russell
                ... From: Mike Foster [mailto:mafoster@direcway.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 4:03 PM To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Query ... Many
                Message 7 of 27 , Dec 14, 2004
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                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Mike Foster [mailto:mafoster@...]
                  Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 4:03 PM
                  To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Query

                  >Keep it loose. Be ready to wait for answers to your questions. Good
                  >idea to get stories of when/how each first encountered Tolkien. Amble,

                  >rather than march, through the books. Suggest members pick a
                  >favorite/interesting character to focus on as books proceed.

                  >I've a few other ideas, but enjoy it, above all.

                  >Mike

                  Many thanks for taking the time to reply. I absorbed some of your ideas
                  in Marquette: Let them choose to belong to one of the different races
                  (Who wants to be a Balrog?). Most of all: What is the Ring?

                  I had not thought of them choosing a character to concentrate on! Great
                  idea! It's been years since I taught and hope it will not take too long
                  to get the hang of it again. But I suspect teaching in humanities to a
                  "volunteer" class will be different from anything I have done before:
                  guiding discussion rather than imparting facts. Bad collywobbles.

                  I do hope we get somebody who has seen the films and not read the book.
                  It would be fascinating to see the book through their eyes.

                  Cheers,

                  Beth
                • Mike Foster
                  If you want to give them a real challenge, employ some of Jan Noble Long s brainbell jangler quizzes. As I observed in Milwaukee, they d have Christopher
                  Message 8 of 27 , Dec 14, 2004
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                    If you want to give them a real challenge, employ some of Jan Noble
                    Long's brainbell jangler quizzes. As I observed in Milwaukee, they'd
                    have Christopher scratching his head.

                    Mike

                    Beth Russell wrote:

                    >
                    >-----Original Message-----
                    >From: Mike Foster [mailto:mafoster@...]
                    >Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 4:03 PM
                    >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                    >Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Query
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >>Keep it loose. Be ready to wait for answers to your questions. Good
                    >>idea to get stories of when/how each first encountered Tolkien. Amble,
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >>rather than march, through the books. Suggest members pick a
                    >>favorite/interesting character to focus on as books proceed.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >>I've a few other ideas, but enjoy it, above all.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >>Mike
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >Many thanks for taking the time to reply. I absorbed some of your ideas
                    >in Marquette: Let them choose to belong to one of the different races
                    >(Who wants to be a Balrog?). Most of all: What is the Ring?
                    >
                    >I had not thought of them choosing a character to concentrate on! Great
                    >idea! It's been years since I taught and hope it will not take too long
                    >to get the hang of it again. But I suspect teaching in humanities to a
                    >"volunteer" class will be different from anything I have done before:
                    >guiding discussion rather than imparting facts. Bad collywobbles.
                    >
                    >I do hope we get somebody who has seen the films and not read the book.
                    >It would be fascinating to see the book through their eyes.
                    >
                    >Cheers,
                    >
                    >Beth
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                    >Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Mike Foster
                    One advantage you will have, Beth: they will all be there because they already like the story and want to talk and learn more about it. But hey, I have a final
                    Message 9 of 27 , Dec 14, 2004
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                      One advantage you will have, Beth: they will all be there because they
                      already like the story and want to talk and learn more about it.

                      But hey, I have a final in Fantasy Lit at 6 so must go.

                      I must say I've succumbed to temptation to cite Jackson here in last
                      days of term by writing on the occasional way-too-little way-too-late
                      paper: "Recall Gandalf's words to Balrog in Moria"

                      Later,
                      Mike

                      Beth Russell wrote:

                      >
                      >-----Original Message-----
                      >From: Mike Foster [mailto:mafoster@...]
                      >Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 4:03 PM
                      >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                      >Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Query
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >>Keep it loose. Be ready to wait for answers to your questions. Good
                      >>idea to get stories of when/how each first encountered Tolkien. Amble,
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >>rather than march, through the books. Suggest members pick a
                      >>favorite/interesting character to focus on as books proceed.
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >>I've a few other ideas, but enjoy it, above all.
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >>Mike
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >Many thanks for taking the time to reply. I absorbed some of your ideas
                      >in Marquette: Let them choose to belong to one of the different races
                      >(Who wants to be a Balrog?). Most of all: What is the Ring?
                      >
                      >I had not thought of them choosing a character to concentrate on! Great
                      >idea! It's been years since I taught and hope it will not take too long
                      >to get the hang of it again. But I suspect teaching in humanities to a
                      >"volunteer" class will be different from anything I have done before:
                      >guiding discussion rather than imparting facts. Bad collywobbles.
                      >
                      >I do hope we get somebody who has seen the films and not read the book.
                      >It would be fascinating to see the book through their eyes.
                      >
                      >Cheers,
                      >
                      >Beth
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                      >Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Joe Christopher
                      I ve got a question about Gene Wolfe s _An Evil Guest_; it was one of the nominees for a Mythopoeic Award last time, so I assume a number of Society members
                      Message 10 of 27 , Nov 20, 2009
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                        I've got a question about Gene Wolfe's _An Evil Guest_; it was one of the
                        nominees for a Mythopoeic Award last time, so I assume a number of Society
                        members have read it. Early in the book, the female protagonist is taken to
                        a living mountain in Canada. (The mountain's wife lives in one of the
                        mountain's caves.) My question is about the source of that mountain--Wolfe
                        is referring to other literary works in that novel, particularly Lovecraft's
                        Mythos. Is that mountain from something by Lovecraft? Is it from some
                        other writer? I suppose it might also be from Native American myths in
                        Canada. (I read a paper on the novel at the South Central Modern Language
                        Association this fall without knowing the source of the mountain, so it's
                        not direly important; but one of these years I want to revise and expand
                        that paper--and it would be nice to know for the revision.)

                        I'd appreciate any information.
                        --Joe

                        P.S. Thank you, Edith, for the kind words about my book. Anthony Boucher
                        was important to me from the time, in junior high school, I read "The
                        Compleat Werewolf." I was happy to put together a book of his radio
                        scripts.
                      • Lisa Padol
                        ... I have been told it is a reference to Cory Doctorow s novel _Someone Comes to Town, Someone Leaves Town_. -Lisa
                        Message 11 of 27 , Nov 21, 2009
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                          > I've got a question about Gene
                          > Wolfe's _An Evil Guest_; it was one of the
                          > nominees for a Mythopoeic Award last time, so I assume a
                          > number of Society
                          > members have read it.  Early in the book, the female
                          > protagonist is taken to
                          > a living mountain in Canada.  (The mountain's wife
                          > lives in one of the
                          > mountain's caves.)  My question is about the source of
                          > that mountain--Wolfe
                          > is referring to other literary works in that novel,
                          > particularly Lovecraft's
                          > Mythos.  Is that mountain from something by
                          > Lovecraft?  Is it from some
                          > other writer?  I suppose it might also be from Native
                          > American myths in
                          > Canada.  (I read a paper on the novel at the South
                          > Central Modern Language
                          > Association this fall without knowing the source of the
                          > mountain, so it's
                          > not direly important; but one of these years I want to
                          > revise and expand
                          > that paper--and it would be nice to know for the
                          > revision.)

                          I have been told it is a reference to Cory Doctorow's novel _Someone Comes to Town, Someone Leaves Town_.

                          -Lisa
                        • CHRISTOPHER, DR. JOE R.
                          I m looking for a reference about Tolkien s note on Joyce s _Finnegans Wake_. Scull and Hammond mention it in a general way in _The JRRT Companion and Guide_
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jun 20, 2014
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                            I'm looking for a reference about Tolkien's note on Joyce's _Finnegans Wake_. Scull and Hammond mention it in a general way in _The JRRT Companion and Guide_ 2.817, but I think I have seen a reference to the note that indicates Tolkien was interested in Joyce's playing with language or his puns or something of that sort. Can anyone give me the reference? Thanks. P.S. Tom Shippey, in _JRRT: Author of the Century_, uses _FW_ in comparisons, but that is not the point at issue. --Joe
                          • Andrew Higgins
                            Dr Christopher As Dimitra Fimi indicates in her book Tolkien, Race and Cultural History - From Fairies to Hobbits (Palgrave 2010) there exists in the
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jun 20, 2014
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                              Dr Christopher 

                              As Dimitra Fimi indicates in her book Tolkien, Race and Cultural History - From Fairies to Hobbits (Palgrave 2010) there exists in the manuscripts of Tolkien's Secret Vice papers held at the Bodleian Library, Oxford two pages of notes on Joyce's Finnegan's Wake (MS Tolkien 24 fols 44-45) Fimi, 2010, p. 210. I also believe in one of the Parma Eldalamberon's there is a page that includes part of Anna Livia Plurabelle - will look when I get home. 

                              Hope that helps 
                              Andy 


                              From the IPAD of: 
                              Andrew Higgins 
                              Director of Development 
                              Glyndebourne (andrew.higgins@...)

                              IPhone 07447644884 

                              Lif is læne: eal scæceð leoht and lif somod [life is fleeting: everything hastens away, light and life together]” (Beowulf trans by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1936). 

                              On 20 Jun 2014, at 18:06, "'CHRISTOPHER, DR. JOE R.' jchristopher@... [mythsoc]" <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                               

                              I'm looking for a reference about Tolkien's note on Joyce's _Finnegans Wake_. Scull and Hammond mention it in a general way in _The JRRT Companion and Guide_ 2.817, but I think I have seen a reference to the note that indicates Tolkien was interested in Joyce's playing with language or his puns or something of that sort. Can anyone give me the reference? Thanks. P.S. Tom Shippey, in _JRRT: Author of the Century_, uses _FW_ in comparisons, but that is not the point at issue. --Joe

                            • Jeremy Edmonds
                              Tolkien Gateway has most of the references noted at least - hope one or more of these helps! http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/James_Joyce On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at
                              Message 14 of 27 , Jun 20, 2014
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                                Tolkien Gateway has most of the references noted at least - hope one or more of these helps!





                                On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 10:18 AM, Andrew Higgins asthiggins@... [mythsoc] <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                 

                                Dr Christopher 

                                As Dimitra Fimi indicates in her book Tolkien, Race and Cultural History - From Fairies to Hobbits (Palgrave 2010) there exists in the manuscripts of Tolkien's Secret Vice papers held at the Bodleian Library, Oxford two pages of notes on Joyce's Finnegan's Wake (MS Tolkien 24 fols 44-45) Fimi, 2010, p. 210. I also believe in one of the Parma Eldalamberon's there is a page that includes part of Anna Livia Plurabelle - will look when I get home. 

                                Hope that helps 
                                Andy 


                                From the IPAD of: 
                                Andrew Higgins 
                                Director of Development 
                                Glyndebourne (andrew.higgins@...)

                                IPhone 07447644884 

                                Lif is læne: eal scæceð leoht and lif somod [life is fleeting: everything hastens away, light and life together]” (Beowulf trans by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1936). 

                                On 20 Jun 2014, at 18:06, "'CHRISTOPHER, DR. JOE R.' jchristopher@... [mythsoc]" <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                 

                                I'm looking for a reference about Tolkien's note on Joyce's _Finnegans Wake_. Scull and Hammond mention it in a general way in _The JRRT Companion and Guide_ 2.817, but I think I have seen a reference to the note that indicates Tolkien was interested in Joyce's playing with language or his puns or something of that sort. Can anyone give me the reference? Thanks. P.S. Tom Shippey, in _JRRT: Author of the Century_, uses _FW_ in comparisons, but that is not the point at issue. --Joe


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