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Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry

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  • AMV Howard
    However, the original question was asked in connection with the Eye of Sauron, a fairly clear symbol of evil. Is it not then possible that Tolkien was
    Message 1 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
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      However, the original question was asked in connection with the Eye of
      Sauron, a fairly clear symbol of evil. Is it not then possible that
      Tolkien was appropriating a well-known (was it well-known at the
      time?) Masonic image as a way to speak against the order?

      /A


      On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 21:18:13 -0600, Mike Foster <mafoster@...> wrote:
      > Stolzi's comment is apt. The only thing less likely than JRRT being a
      > Mason was him being a New York Yankees' fan.
      >
      > Mike
      >
      >
      >
      > Stolzi wrote:
      >
      > >----- Original Message -----
      > >From: <dianejoy@...>
      > >To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
      > >Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 9:49 AM
      > >Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >>As for Tolkien's connection with Masonry: I don't think so. First of
      > >>
      > >>
      > >all,
      > >
      > >
      > >>he was meeting with the Inklings at the Eagle and Child and in CSL's
      > >>
      > >>
      > >rooms.
      > >
      > >
      > >>Being a Mason (esp. during the period in which he could have been
      > >>
      > >>
      > >enrolled)
      > >
      > >
      > >>takes time. Since reading his letters, I'm struck with how little time he
      > >>felt he had for writing; I think he'd have invested any spare time into
      > >>writing, rather than going to more meetings.
      > >>
      > >>
      > >
      > >But this is really far beside the point! Is there anyone here who wants
      > to
      > >suggest Tolkien was playing a double game with his Church? The Church he
      > >loved so dearly and for which (he believed) his mother gave her life? =I=
      > >for one certainly wouldn't suggest it. That Church imposed
      > EXCOMMUNICATION,
      > >by canon law, upon any Catholic who joined the Masons. Tolkien was a
      > >well-educated man (to say the least!) who would have known this perfectly
      > >well.
      > >
      > >Citation: ' Since the decree "In Eminenti" of Pope Clement XII in 1738,
      > >Catholics have been forbidden to jojn the Masons, and until 1983, under
      > pain
      > >of excommunication.
      > >
      > >' On Nov. 26, 1983, with the approval of Pope John Paul II, the Sacred
      > >Congregation reiterated the ban on Catholics joining the Masons: "The
      > >Church's negative position on Masonic association ... remains unaltered,
      > >since their principles have always been regarded as irreconcilable with
      > the
      > >Church's doctrine. Hence, joining them remains prohibited by the Church.
      > >Catholics enrolled in masonic associations are involved in serious sin and
      > >may not approach Holy Communion." '
      > >
      > >Diamond Proudbrook
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
      > >Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
      >
      >
      >
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    • Carl F. Hostetter
      ... It s on the back of every (US) dollar bill.
      Message 2 of 23 , Dec 4, 2004
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        On Dec 3, 2004, at 10:32 PM, AMV Howard wrote:

        > However, the original question was asked in connection with the Eye of
        > Sauron, a fairly clear symbol of evil. Is it not then possible that
        > Tolkien was appropriating a well-known (was it well-known at the
        > time?) Masonic image as a way to speak against the order?

        It's on the back of every (US) dollar bill.
      • Stolzi
        ... From: Carl F. Hostetter ... Cleanse thyself of evil, Carl: send me all your dollars. Diamond Proudbrook
        Message 3 of 23 , Dec 4, 2004
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          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Carl F. Hostetter" <Aelfwine@...>

          > On Dec 3, 2004, at 10:32 PM, AMV Howard wrote:
          >
          > > However, the original question was asked in connection with the Eye of
          > > Sauron, a fairly clear symbol of evil. Is it not then possible that
          > > Tolkien was appropriating a well-known (was it well-known at the
          > > time?) Masonic image as a way to speak against the order?
          >
          > It's on the back of every (US) dollar bill.

          Cleanse thyself of evil, Carl: send me all your dollars.

          Diamond Proudbrook
        • dianejoy@earthlink.net
          ... From: Stolzi Stolzi@comcast.net Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 13:53:12 -0600 To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry ... From:
          Message 4 of 23 , Dec 4, 2004
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            Original Message:
            -----------------
            From: Stolzi Stolzi@...
            Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 13:53:12 -0600
            To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry



            ----- Original Message -----
            From: <dianejoy@...>
            To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 9:49 AM
            Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry



            > As for Tolkien's connection with Masonry: I don't think so. First of
            all,
            > he was meeting with the Inklings at the Eagle and Child and in CSL's
            rooms.
            > Being a Mason (esp. during the period in which he could have been
            enrolled)
            > takes time. Since reading his letters, I'm struck with how little time he
            > felt he had for writing; I think he'd have invested any spare time into
            > writing, rather than going to more meetings.

            >> But this is really far beside the point!

            Actually, no, it's not. I'm making an argument from the standpoint of
            *practical reasoning,* not from moral principle. I do not begin to suggest
            that Tolkien WAS a Mason, but provide a very salutory reason why he would
            not even consider it, simply because he would not want to attend the
            meetings required. Aside from the moral questions, time was a major factor
            for JRRT. He was more interested in writing than in going to meetings
            (unless they were with the Inklings.) So the likelihood of his being a
            Mason reduces all the more, quite apart from his obedience to Church
            teaching, which would have come first, I'm sure.



            > Is there anyone here who wants to suggest Tolkien was playing a double
            > game with his Church? The Church heloved so dearly and for which (he
            > believed) his mother gave her life? =I= for one certainly wouldn't
            suggest > it. That Church imposed EXCOMMUNICATION,by canon law, upon any
            Catholic > who joined the Masons. Tolkien was awell-educated man (to say
            the least!) > who would have known this perfectly well.

            Indeed; and for the reasons I cited above, I doubt he would have joined
            the Knights of Columbus or a similar English group (assuming they existed
            at that time.)

            Citation: ' Since the decree "In Eminenti" of Pope Clement XII in 1738,
            Catholics have been forbidden to jojn the Masons, and until 1983, under pain
            of excommunication.

            ' On Nov. 26, 1983, with the approval of Pope John Paul II, the Sacred
            Congregation reiterated the ban on Catholics joining the Masons: "The
            Church's negative position on Masonic association ... remains unaltered,
            since their principles have always been regarded as irreconcilable with the
            Church's doctrine. Hence, joining them remains prohibited by the Church.
            Catholics enrolled in masonic associations are involved in serious sin and
            may not approach Holy Communion." '

            Diamond Proudbrook







            The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
            Yahoo! Groups Links








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          • Carl F. Hostetter
            ... Too late, I ve already sent them all to eBay and Amazon! Carl
            Message 5 of 23 , Dec 4, 2004
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              On Dec 4, 2004, at 1:55 PM, Stolzi wrote:

              > Cleanse thyself of evil, Carl: send me all your dollars.

              Too late, I've already sent them all to eBay and Amazon!

              Carl
            • Stolzi
              ... From: ... In looking up the K of C (founded 1882) I found this site http://www.kofc.org/about/museum/detail.cfm?id=4158 which
              Message 6 of 23 , Dec 4, 2004
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                ----- Original Message -----
                From: <dianejoy@...>

                > the Knights of Columbus or a similar English group (assuming they existed
                > at that time.)
                >

                In looking up the K of C (founded 1882) I found this site

                http://www.kofc.org/about/museum/detail.cfm?id=4158

                which shows some really dreamy old lithographs of the Holy Land made by a
                Scottish artist in 1838-39. Some might enjoy a Christmastime look at them,
                though alas, they don't seem to blow up into larger renditions. [Nor can
                you find larger versions at the permanent home of the lithographs, Duke
                University's Nasher Museum.]

                I seem to remember (harking back now to NATIONAL TREASURE) the Knights of
                Columbus and the Rosicrucians (AMORC) running dueling ad campaigns. The art
                work was somewhat similar, as was size and placement, and both promised men
                an instructive course you could write away for. Since both the Catholic
                Church and the Rosicrucians were =terra incognita= to your average
                magazine-reading middle-American Protestant male in my youth (and even now,
                I suppose), both may have gotten takers.

                The Ancient Wisdom has now made it to a more modern venue, the Web:

                http://www.amorc.org/

                But they'll still send you a "Free Introductory Booklet"! No need for
                dollars, Carl!

                Diamond Proudbrook
              • Beth Russell
                ... From: Stolzi [mailto:Stolzi@comcast.net] Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 2:45 PM To: Mythopoeic Society Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry
                Message 7 of 23 , Dec 4, 2004
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                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Stolzi [mailto:Stolzi@...]
                  Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 2:45 PM
                  To: Mythopoeic Society
                  Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry


                  Since both the Catholic
                  Church and the Rosicrucians were =terra incognita= to your average
                  magazine-reading middle-American Protestant male in my youth (and even
                  now,
                  I suppose), both may have gotten takers.

                  The Ancient Wisdom has now made it to a more modern venue, the Web:




                  Has it also made it to the Tolkenian publishing world?

                  Robert Ellwood's book, "Frodo's Quest" was published by the Theosophical
                  Publ. House. Are they related to the Rosicrucians? AMORC not mentioned
                  on their website...

                  Cheers,

                  Beth






                  The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                • WendellWag@aol.com
                  In a message dated 12/2/2004 3:06:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Stolzi@comcast.net writes: It is true that George Washington and several other US Presidents
                  Message 8 of 23 , Dec 5, 2004
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                    In a message dated 12/2/2004 3:06:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                    Stolzi@... writes:

                    It is true that George Washington and several other US Presidents who
                    considered themselves Christians did belong to the Freemasons.



                    It isn't really clear how Christian some of our founding fathers were.
                    About Jefferson, there's no doubt that he was more of a Deist, since we have his
                    writings about religious subjects. He published a "version" of the New
                    Testament, which was a "cut out the things you don't like" version. Franklin also
                    was a Deist. Washington it's harder to tell about. He gave lip service to
                    being an Anglican/Episcopalian, but his writings make him sound more like a
                    Deist. All this is irrelevant, in my view, to whether you agree with their
                    political views. In my opinion, it's not necessary to agree with someone's
                    politics to agree with their religion, and it's not necessary to agree with
                    someone's religion to agree with their politics.

                    Wendell Wagner


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Stolzi
                    ... From: ... have his ... Yes; I wasn t including him in my list of Masonic Presidents; as far as I know TJ was not a Mason. Was
                    Message 9 of 23 , Dec 5, 2004
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                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: <WendellWag@...>

                      >
                      > It isn't really clear how Christian some of our founding fathers were.
                      > About Jefferson, there's no doubt that he was more of a Deist, since we
                      have his
                      > writings about religious subjects.

                      Yes; I wasn't including him in my list of Masonic Presidents; as far as I
                      know TJ was not a Mason. Was Franklin, for that matter? (Of course BF was
                      not a President, though I once sent a correction to a web merchant who
                      apptly believed that he was.)

                      Because of his plain dress and his PA zip code, there were some, I believe,
                      who fingered Franklin as a Quaker, which he was not.

                      Show on History Channel about Franklin tonight, but I incline more towards
                      MythBusters:

                      "Sunday, December 5, 2004 at 8:00 PM (ET) on Discovery Channel:
                      MythBusters
                      Ming Dynasty Astronaut
                      Buster takes the hot seat in the Mojave Desert in the myth of the 'Ming
                      Dynasty Astronaut.' Will Buster defy the laws of gravity and survive an
                      explosive launch into space? Adam and Jamie play mad scientists in the
                      quest for free energy."

                      History Channel is trying to milk the NATIONAL TREASURE cow, with a show
                      about Bible Codes right before Franklin, and having Nicholas Cage host the
                      Franklin show. But those in the mood cd equally well watch "Ramses: Wrath
                      of God or Man?" on Discovery, right after the MythBusters.

                      Diamond Proudbrook
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