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Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry

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  • Stolzi
    I took a look at the article; some amazing coincidences, I agree, but I think that is all they are, coincidences. Freemasonry at its upper levels teaches what
    Message 1 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
      I took a look at the article; some amazing coincidences, I agree, but I
      think that is all they are, coincidences.

      Freemasonry at its upper levels teaches what many, many Christians regard as
      unChristian doctrines (syncretism, mostly); many Evangelicals would say
      this, as well as Roman Catholics.

      This page

      http://www.clearlightcatholic.com/masonic/whataremasons.htm

      gives some details.

      Freemasonry in Europe, in my understanding, was always much more
      anti-clerical and politically revolutionary than the rather more sober
      Freemasons of England and (by derivation) N. America.

      It is true that George Washington and several other US Presidents who
      considered themselves Christians did belong to the Freemasons.

      Diamond Proudbrook
    • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
      Neat. And I like the Orpheus talisman link. I don t like some of the comparative religion or whatever it is that I have read recently. I don t know if it
      Message 2 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
        Neat. And I like the Orpheus talisman link.

        I don't like some of the "comparative religion" or whatever it is that I
        have read recently. I don't know if it is a newer trend or just one that I
        hadn't managed to catch up with before, but things like "Osiris-Dionysus"
        and other amalgamations of characters from divergent cultures strikes me as
        rather less illuminating than otherwise.

        It is all well and interesting to research cultures and find connections.
        But there are only so many images and many will be shared, and that does
        not mean that they are connected. Sometimes they will be, and sometimes
        they will be only in the sense that they both point to similar things (a
        ring is hard and endless and easily portable, so it lends itself to
        symbolism), and sometimes they won't mean the same thing at all, even
        though they look similar to an ignorant outsider (such as a person from a
        different time and place).

        I think things have gotten a bit sloppier since Tolkien's time. I could be
        wrong, but I think there was a lot more basic study that folks had to do
        back when. Nowadays any idiot with a keyboard can "publish" anything.

        Lizzie

        Elizabeth Apgar Triano
        lizziewriter@...
        amor vincit omnia
        www.lizziewriter.com
        www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org


        > [Original Message]
        > From: ANIL ERKAN <anilerkan@...>
        > To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
        > Date: 12/2/2004 11:19:40 AM
        > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry
        >
        >
        > Actually when I just searched google with
        >
        > Paranoia Magazine tolkien..I came up with the following website
        >
        > http://www.darkstar1.co.uk/ring.html
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 07:51:30 -0800 (PST), Daniel Dimitroff
        > <nightcrawler51@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Try Paranoia Magazine Issue #34.
        > >
        > > "Tolkien & Planet X"
        > >
        > > Always a credible source.
        > >
        > > Dan
        > > --- anilerkan <anilerkan@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Has anybody read anywhere that there could be a relationship between
        > > > LOTR and freemasonry.
        > > >
        > > > Especially the eye in the book (and movie) are to similar to miss.
        > > >
        > > > Any body have any views on this?
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
        > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > > __________________________________
        > > Do you Yahoo!?
        > > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
        > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • David Bratman
        ... Advice: whenever you see a hidden/secret interpretation of anything, that includes a phrase like The parallels are too striking to be entirely
        Message 3 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
          At 06:19 PM 12/2/2004 +0200, ANIL ERKAN wrote:

          >Actually when I just searched google with
          >Paranoia Magazine tolkien..I came up with the following website
          >http://www.darkstar1.co.uk/ring.html

          Advice: whenever you see a "hidden/secret interpretation" of anything, that
          includes a phrase like "The parallels are too striking to be entirely
          coincidental," run away quickly. Do not look back, or you risk being
          turned into a pillar of salt.
        • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
          Thank you, Diamond. Now I get to look up syncretism. And thank you, Katie, for the other post with links. Lizzie Elizabeth Apgar Triano
          Message 4 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
            Thank you, Diamond. Now I get to look up "syncretism."

            And thank you, Katie, for the other post with links.

            Lizzie

            Elizabeth Apgar Triano
            lizziewriter@...
            amor vincit omnia
            www.lizziewriter.com
            www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org


            > [Original Message]
            > From: Stolzi <Stolzi@...>
            > To: Mythopoeic Society <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
            > Date: 12/2/2004 2:53:23 PM
            > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry
            >
            >
            > I took a look at the article; some amazing coincidences, I agree, but I
            > think that is all they are, coincidences.
            >
            > Freemasonry at its upper levels teaches what many, many Christians regard
            as
            > unChristian doctrines (syncretism, mostly); many Evangelicals would say
            > this, as well as Roman Catholics.
            >
            > This page
            >
            > http://www.clearlightcatholic.com/masonic/whataremasons.htm
            >
            > gives some details.
            >
            > Freemasonry in Europe, in my understanding, was always much more
            > anti-clerical and politically revolutionary than the rather more sober
            > Freemasons of England and (by derivation) N. America.
            >
            > It is true that George Washington and several other US Presidents who
            > considered themselves Christians did belong to the Freemasons.
            >
            > Diamond Proudbrook
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • dianejoy@earthlink.net
            As do I. I m a member of the Order of the Eastern Star, the ladies auxilliary of the Masons. As was my aunt (a devout Baptist). We also have a Catholic
            Message 5 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
              As do I. I'm a member of the Order of the Eastern Star, the "ladies
              auxilliary" of the Masons. As was my aunt (a devout Baptist). We also
              have a Catholic woman in our Chapter. OES these days is a guttering
              candle, and mostly, we do charitable work.

              However, Masons don't discuss the intricacies of their organization, even
              with members of the OES.

              As for Tolkien's connection with Masonry: I don't think so. First of all,
              he was meeting with the Inklings at the Eagle and Child and in CSL's rooms.
              Being a Mason (esp. during the period in which he could have been enrolled)
              takes time. Since reading his letters, I'm struck with how little time he
              felt he had for writing; I think he'd have invested any spare time into
              writing, rather than going to more meetings. (Though Charles Williams was a
              member of the Order of the Golden Dawn. IIRC, he resigned from that group.
              I think.) The Paranoia article was interesting, but mostly for what you
              learn about Rosicrucians. ---djb

              Original Message:
              -----------------
              From: Stolzi Stolzi@...
              Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 10:45:25 -0600
              To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry



              I took a look at the article; some amazing coincidences, I agree, but I
              think that is all they are, coincidences.

              Freemasonry at its upper levels teaches what many, many Christians regard as
              unChristian doctrines (syncretism, mostly); many Evangelicals would say
              this, as well as Roman Catholics.

              This page

              http://www.clearlightcatholic.com/masonic/whataremasons.htm

              gives some details.

              Freemasonry in Europe, in my understanding, was always much more
              anti-clerical and politically revolutionary than the rather more sober
              Freemasons of England and (by derivation) N. America.

              It is true that George Washington and several other US Presidents who
              considered themselves Christians did belong to the Freemasons.

              Diamond Proudbrook







              The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
              Yahoo! Groups Links








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            • Stolzi
              ... From: To: Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 9:49 AM Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry ...
              Message 6 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: <dianejoy@...>
                To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 9:49 AM
                Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry



                > As for Tolkien's connection with Masonry: I don't think so. First of
                all,
                > he was meeting with the Inklings at the Eagle and Child and in CSL's
                rooms.
                > Being a Mason (esp. during the period in which he could have been
                enrolled)
                > takes time. Since reading his letters, I'm struck with how little time he
                > felt he had for writing; I think he'd have invested any spare time into
                > writing, rather than going to more meetings.

                But this is really far beside the point! Is there anyone here who wants to
                suggest Tolkien was playing a double game with his Church? The Church he
                loved so dearly and for which (he believed) his mother gave her life? =I=
                for one certainly wouldn't suggest it. That Church imposed EXCOMMUNICATION,
                by canon law, upon any Catholic who joined the Masons. Tolkien was a
                well-educated man (to say the least!) who would have known this perfectly
                well.

                Citation: ' Since the decree "In Eminenti" of Pope Clement XII in 1738,
                Catholics have been forbidden to jojn the Masons, and until 1983, under pain
                of excommunication.

                ' On Nov. 26, 1983, with the approval of Pope John Paul II, the Sacred
                Congregation reiterated the ban on Catholics joining the Masons: "The
                Church's negative position on Masonic association ... remains unaltered,
                since their principles have always been regarded as irreconcilable with the
                Church's doctrine. Hence, joining them remains prohibited by the Church.
                Catholics enrolled in masonic associations are involved in serious sin and
                may not approach Holy Communion." '

                Diamond Proudbrook
              • Mike Foster
                Stolzi s comment is apt. The only thing less likely than JRRT being a Mason was him being a New York Yankees fan. Mike ... [Non-text portions of this message
                Message 7 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
                  Stolzi's comment is apt. The only thing less likely than JRRT being a
                  Mason was him being a New York Yankees' fan.

                  Mike

                  Stolzi wrote:

                  >----- Original Message -----
                  >From: <dianejoy@...>
                  >To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                  >Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 9:49 AM
                  >Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >>As for Tolkien's connection with Masonry: I don't think so. First of
                  >>
                  >>
                  >all,
                  >
                  >
                  >>he was meeting with the Inklings at the Eagle and Child and in CSL's
                  >>
                  >>
                  >rooms.
                  >
                  >
                  >>Being a Mason (esp. during the period in which he could have been
                  >>
                  >>
                  >enrolled)
                  >
                  >
                  >>takes time. Since reading his letters, I'm struck with how little time he
                  >>felt he had for writing; I think he'd have invested any spare time into
                  >>writing, rather than going to more meetings.
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >But this is really far beside the point! Is there anyone here who wants to
                  >suggest Tolkien was playing a double game with his Church? The Church he
                  >loved so dearly and for which (he believed) his mother gave her life? =I=
                  >for one certainly wouldn't suggest it. That Church imposed EXCOMMUNICATION,
                  >by canon law, upon any Catholic who joined the Masons. Tolkien was a
                  >well-educated man (to say the least!) who would have known this perfectly
                  >well.
                  >
                  >Citation: ' Since the decree "In Eminenti" of Pope Clement XII in 1738,
                  >Catholics have been forbidden to jojn the Masons, and until 1983, under pain
                  >of excommunication.
                  >
                  >' On Nov. 26, 1983, with the approval of Pope John Paul II, the Sacred
                  >Congregation reiterated the ban on Catholics joining the Masons: "The
                  >Church's negative position on Masonic association ... remains unaltered,
                  >since their principles have always been regarded as irreconcilable with the
                  >Church's doctrine. Hence, joining them remains prohibited by the Church.
                  >Catholics enrolled in masonic associations are involved in serious sin and
                  >may not approach Holy Communion." '
                  >
                  >Diamond Proudbrook
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • AMV Howard
                  However, the original question was asked in connection with the Eye of Sauron, a fairly clear symbol of evil. Is it not then possible that Tolkien was
                  Message 8 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
                    However, the original question was asked in connection with the Eye of
                    Sauron, a fairly clear symbol of evil. Is it not then possible that
                    Tolkien was appropriating a well-known (was it well-known at the
                    time?) Masonic image as a way to speak against the order?

                    /A


                    On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 21:18:13 -0600, Mike Foster <mafoster@...> wrote:
                    > Stolzi's comment is apt. The only thing less likely than JRRT being a
                    > Mason was him being a New York Yankees' fan.
                    >
                    > Mike
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Stolzi wrote:
                    >
                    > >----- Original Message -----
                    > >From: <dianejoy@...>
                    > >To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                    > >Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 9:49 AM
                    > >Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >>As for Tolkien's connection with Masonry: I don't think so. First of
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >all,
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >>he was meeting with the Inklings at the Eagle and Child and in CSL's
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >rooms.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >>Being a Mason (esp. during the period in which he could have been
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >enrolled)
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >>takes time. Since reading his letters, I'm struck with how little time he
                    > >>felt he had for writing; I think he'd have invested any spare time into
                    > >>writing, rather than going to more meetings.
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >
                    > >But this is really far beside the point! Is there anyone here who wants
                    > to
                    > >suggest Tolkien was playing a double game with his Church? The Church he
                    > >loved so dearly and for which (he believed) his mother gave her life? =I=
                    > >for one certainly wouldn't suggest it. That Church imposed
                    > EXCOMMUNICATION,
                    > >by canon law, upon any Catholic who joined the Masons. Tolkien was a
                    > >well-educated man (to say the least!) who would have known this perfectly
                    > >well.
                    > >
                    > >Citation: ' Since the decree "In Eminenti" of Pope Clement XII in 1738,
                    > >Catholics have been forbidden to jojn the Masons, and until 1983, under
                    > pain
                    > >of excommunication.
                    > >
                    > >' On Nov. 26, 1983, with the approval of Pope John Paul II, the Sacred
                    > >Congregation reiterated the ban on Catholics joining the Masons: "The
                    > >Church's negative position on Masonic association ... remains unaltered,
                    > >since their principles have always been regarded as irreconcilable with
                    > the
                    > >Church's doctrine. Hence, joining them remains prohibited by the Church.
                    > >Catholics enrolled in masonic associations are involved in serious sin and
                    > >may not approach Holy Communion." '
                    > >
                    > >Diamond Proudbrook
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                    > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                  • Carl F. Hostetter
                    ... It s on the back of every (US) dollar bill.
                    Message 9 of 23 , Dec 4, 2004
                      On Dec 3, 2004, at 10:32 PM, AMV Howard wrote:

                      > However, the original question was asked in connection with the Eye of
                      > Sauron, a fairly clear symbol of evil. Is it not then possible that
                      > Tolkien was appropriating a well-known (was it well-known at the
                      > time?) Masonic image as a way to speak against the order?

                      It's on the back of every (US) dollar bill.
                    • Stolzi
                      ... From: Carl F. Hostetter ... Cleanse thyself of evil, Carl: send me all your dollars. Diamond Proudbrook
                      Message 10 of 23 , Dec 4, 2004
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Carl F. Hostetter" <Aelfwine@...>

                        > On Dec 3, 2004, at 10:32 PM, AMV Howard wrote:
                        >
                        > > However, the original question was asked in connection with the Eye of
                        > > Sauron, a fairly clear symbol of evil. Is it not then possible that
                        > > Tolkien was appropriating a well-known (was it well-known at the
                        > > time?) Masonic image as a way to speak against the order?
                        >
                        > It's on the back of every (US) dollar bill.

                        Cleanse thyself of evil, Carl: send me all your dollars.

                        Diamond Proudbrook
                      • dianejoy@earthlink.net
                        ... From: Stolzi Stolzi@comcast.net Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 13:53:12 -0600 To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry ... From:
                        Message 11 of 23 , Dec 4, 2004
                          Original Message:
                          -----------------
                          From: Stolzi Stolzi@...
                          Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 13:53:12 -0600
                          To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry



                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: <dianejoy@...>
                          To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 9:49 AM
                          Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry



                          > As for Tolkien's connection with Masonry: I don't think so. First of
                          all,
                          > he was meeting with the Inklings at the Eagle and Child and in CSL's
                          rooms.
                          > Being a Mason (esp. during the period in which he could have been
                          enrolled)
                          > takes time. Since reading his letters, I'm struck with how little time he
                          > felt he had for writing; I think he'd have invested any spare time into
                          > writing, rather than going to more meetings.

                          >> But this is really far beside the point!

                          Actually, no, it's not. I'm making an argument from the standpoint of
                          *practical reasoning,* not from moral principle. I do not begin to suggest
                          that Tolkien WAS a Mason, but provide a very salutory reason why he would
                          not even consider it, simply because he would not want to attend the
                          meetings required. Aside from the moral questions, time was a major factor
                          for JRRT. He was more interested in writing than in going to meetings
                          (unless they were with the Inklings.) So the likelihood of his being a
                          Mason reduces all the more, quite apart from his obedience to Church
                          teaching, which would have come first, I'm sure.



                          > Is there anyone here who wants to suggest Tolkien was playing a double
                          > game with his Church? The Church heloved so dearly and for which (he
                          > believed) his mother gave her life? =I= for one certainly wouldn't
                          suggest > it. That Church imposed EXCOMMUNICATION,by canon law, upon any
                          Catholic > who joined the Masons. Tolkien was awell-educated man (to say
                          the least!) > who would have known this perfectly well.

                          Indeed; and for the reasons I cited above, I doubt he would have joined
                          the Knights of Columbus or a similar English group (assuming they existed
                          at that time.)

                          Citation: ' Since the decree "In Eminenti" of Pope Clement XII in 1738,
                          Catholics have been forbidden to jojn the Masons, and until 1983, under pain
                          of excommunication.

                          ' On Nov. 26, 1983, with the approval of Pope John Paul II, the Sacred
                          Congregation reiterated the ban on Catholics joining the Masons: "The
                          Church's negative position on Masonic association ... remains unaltered,
                          since their principles have always been regarded as irreconcilable with the
                          Church's doctrine. Hence, joining them remains prohibited by the Church.
                          Catholics enrolled in masonic associations are involved in serious sin and
                          may not approach Holy Communion." '

                          Diamond Proudbrook







                          The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                          Yahoo! Groups Links








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                        • Carl F. Hostetter
                          ... Too late, I ve already sent them all to eBay and Amazon! Carl
                          Message 12 of 23 , Dec 4, 2004
                            On Dec 4, 2004, at 1:55 PM, Stolzi wrote:

                            > Cleanse thyself of evil, Carl: send me all your dollars.

                            Too late, I've already sent them all to eBay and Amazon!

                            Carl
                          • Stolzi
                            ... From: ... In looking up the K of C (founded 1882) I found this site http://www.kofc.org/about/museum/detail.cfm?id=4158 which
                            Message 13 of 23 , Dec 4, 2004
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: <dianejoy@...>

                              > the Knights of Columbus or a similar English group (assuming they existed
                              > at that time.)
                              >

                              In looking up the K of C (founded 1882) I found this site

                              http://www.kofc.org/about/museum/detail.cfm?id=4158

                              which shows some really dreamy old lithographs of the Holy Land made by a
                              Scottish artist in 1838-39. Some might enjoy a Christmastime look at them,
                              though alas, they don't seem to blow up into larger renditions. [Nor can
                              you find larger versions at the permanent home of the lithographs, Duke
                              University's Nasher Museum.]

                              I seem to remember (harking back now to NATIONAL TREASURE) the Knights of
                              Columbus and the Rosicrucians (AMORC) running dueling ad campaigns. The art
                              work was somewhat similar, as was size and placement, and both promised men
                              an instructive course you could write away for. Since both the Catholic
                              Church and the Rosicrucians were =terra incognita= to your average
                              magazine-reading middle-American Protestant male in my youth (and even now,
                              I suppose), both may have gotten takers.

                              The Ancient Wisdom has now made it to a more modern venue, the Web:

                              http://www.amorc.org/

                              But they'll still send you a "Free Introductory Booklet"! No need for
                              dollars, Carl!

                              Diamond Proudbrook
                            • Beth Russell
                              ... From: Stolzi [mailto:Stolzi@comcast.net] Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 2:45 PM To: Mythopoeic Society Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry
                              Message 14 of 23 , Dec 4, 2004
                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Stolzi [mailto:Stolzi@...]
                                Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 2:45 PM
                                To: Mythopoeic Society
                                Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry


                                Since both the Catholic
                                Church and the Rosicrucians were =terra incognita= to your average
                                magazine-reading middle-American Protestant male in my youth (and even
                                now,
                                I suppose), both may have gotten takers.

                                The Ancient Wisdom has now made it to a more modern venue, the Web:




                                Has it also made it to the Tolkenian publishing world?

                                Robert Ellwood's book, "Frodo's Quest" was published by the Theosophical
                                Publ. House. Are they related to the Rosicrucians? AMORC not mentioned
                                on their website...

                                Cheers,

                                Beth






                                The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                                Yahoo! Groups Links
                              • WendellWag@aol.com
                                In a message dated 12/2/2004 3:06:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Stolzi@comcast.net writes: It is true that George Washington and several other US Presidents
                                Message 15 of 23 , Dec 5, 2004
                                  In a message dated 12/2/2004 3:06:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                                  Stolzi@... writes:

                                  It is true that George Washington and several other US Presidents who
                                  considered themselves Christians did belong to the Freemasons.



                                  It isn't really clear how Christian some of our founding fathers were.
                                  About Jefferson, there's no doubt that he was more of a Deist, since we have his
                                  writings about religious subjects. He published a "version" of the New
                                  Testament, which was a "cut out the things you don't like" version. Franklin also
                                  was a Deist. Washington it's harder to tell about. He gave lip service to
                                  being an Anglican/Episcopalian, but his writings make him sound more like a
                                  Deist. All this is irrelevant, in my view, to whether you agree with their
                                  political views. In my opinion, it's not necessary to agree with someone's
                                  politics to agree with their religion, and it's not necessary to agree with
                                  someone's religion to agree with their politics.

                                  Wendell Wagner


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Stolzi
                                  ... From: ... have his ... Yes; I wasn t including him in my list of Masonic Presidents; as far as I know TJ was not a Mason. Was
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Dec 5, 2004
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: <WendellWag@...>

                                    >
                                    > It isn't really clear how Christian some of our founding fathers were.
                                    > About Jefferson, there's no doubt that he was more of a Deist, since we
                                    have his
                                    > writings about religious subjects.

                                    Yes; I wasn't including him in my list of Masonic Presidents; as far as I
                                    know TJ was not a Mason. Was Franklin, for that matter? (Of course BF was
                                    not a President, though I once sent a correction to a web merchant who
                                    apptly believed that he was.)

                                    Because of his plain dress and his PA zip code, there were some, I believe,
                                    who fingered Franklin as a Quaker, which he was not.

                                    Show on History Channel about Franklin tonight, but I incline more towards
                                    MythBusters:

                                    "Sunday, December 5, 2004 at 8:00 PM (ET) on Discovery Channel:
                                    MythBusters
                                    Ming Dynasty Astronaut
                                    Buster takes the hot seat in the Mojave Desert in the myth of the 'Ming
                                    Dynasty Astronaut.' Will Buster defy the laws of gravity and survive an
                                    explosive launch into space? Adam and Jamie play mad scientists in the
                                    quest for free energy."

                                    History Channel is trying to milk the NATIONAL TREASURE cow, with a show
                                    about Bible Codes right before Franklin, and having Nicholas Cage host the
                                    Franklin show. But those in the mood cd equally well watch "Ramses: Wrath
                                    of God or Man?" on Discovery, right after the MythBusters.

                                    Diamond Proudbrook
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