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Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry

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  • Daniel Dimitroff
    Try Paranoia Magazine Issue #34. Tolkien & Planet X Always a credible source. Dan ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps
    Message 1 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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      Try Paranoia Magazine Issue #34.

      "Tolkien & Planet X"

      Always a credible source.

      Dan
      --- anilerkan <anilerkan@...> wrote:

      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Has anybody read anywhere that there could be a relationship between
      > LOTR and freemasonry.
      >
      > Especially the eye in the book (and movie) are to similar to miss.
      >
      > Any body have any views on this?
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >




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    • ANIL ERKAN
      Actually when I just searched google with Paranoia Magazine tolkien..I came up with the following website http://www.darkstar1.co.uk/ring.html On Thu, 2 Dec
      Message 2 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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        Actually when I just searched google with

        Paranoia Magazine tolkien..I came up with the following website

        http://www.darkstar1.co.uk/ring.html




        On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 07:51:30 -0800 (PST), Daniel Dimitroff
        <nightcrawler51@...> wrote:
        >
        > Try Paranoia Magazine Issue #34.
        >
        > "Tolkien & Planet X"
        >
        > Always a credible source.
        >
        > Dan
        > --- anilerkan <anilerkan@...> wrote:
        >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Has anybody read anywhere that there could be a relationship between
        > > LOTR and freemasonry.
        > >
        > > Especially the eye in the book (and movie) are to similar to miss.
        > >
        > > Any body have any views on this?
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > __________________________________
        > Do you Yahoo!?
        > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
        > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Stolzi
        I took a look at the article; some amazing coincidences, I agree, but I think that is all they are, coincidences. Freemasonry at its upper levels teaches what
        Message 3 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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          I took a look at the article; some amazing coincidences, I agree, but I
          think that is all they are, coincidences.

          Freemasonry at its upper levels teaches what many, many Christians regard as
          unChristian doctrines (syncretism, mostly); many Evangelicals would say
          this, as well as Roman Catholics.

          This page

          http://www.clearlightcatholic.com/masonic/whataremasons.htm

          gives some details.

          Freemasonry in Europe, in my understanding, was always much more
          anti-clerical and politically revolutionary than the rather more sober
          Freemasons of England and (by derivation) N. America.

          It is true that George Washington and several other US Presidents who
          considered themselves Christians did belong to the Freemasons.

          Diamond Proudbrook
        • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
          Neat. And I like the Orpheus talisman link. I don t like some of the comparative religion or whatever it is that I have read recently. I don t know if it
          Message 4 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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            Neat. And I like the Orpheus talisman link.

            I don't like some of the "comparative religion" or whatever it is that I
            have read recently. I don't know if it is a newer trend or just one that I
            hadn't managed to catch up with before, but things like "Osiris-Dionysus"
            and other amalgamations of characters from divergent cultures strikes me as
            rather less illuminating than otherwise.

            It is all well and interesting to research cultures and find connections.
            But there are only so many images and many will be shared, and that does
            not mean that they are connected. Sometimes they will be, and sometimes
            they will be only in the sense that they both point to similar things (a
            ring is hard and endless and easily portable, so it lends itself to
            symbolism), and sometimes they won't mean the same thing at all, even
            though they look similar to an ignorant outsider (such as a person from a
            different time and place).

            I think things have gotten a bit sloppier since Tolkien's time. I could be
            wrong, but I think there was a lot more basic study that folks had to do
            back when. Nowadays any idiot with a keyboard can "publish" anything.

            Lizzie

            Elizabeth Apgar Triano
            lizziewriter@...
            amor vincit omnia
            www.lizziewriter.com
            www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org


            > [Original Message]
            > From: ANIL ERKAN <anilerkan@...>
            > To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
            > Date: 12/2/2004 11:19:40 AM
            > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry
            >
            >
            > Actually when I just searched google with
            >
            > Paranoia Magazine tolkien..I came up with the following website
            >
            > http://www.darkstar1.co.uk/ring.html
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 07:51:30 -0800 (PST), Daniel Dimitroff
            > <nightcrawler51@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Try Paranoia Magazine Issue #34.
            > >
            > > "Tolkien & Planet X"
            > >
            > > Always a credible source.
            > >
            > > Dan
            > > --- anilerkan <anilerkan@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Has anybody read anywhere that there could be a relationship between
            > > > LOTR and freemasonry.
            > > >
            > > > Especially the eye in the book (and movie) are to similar to miss.
            > > >
            > > > Any body have any views on this?
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
            > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > > __________________________________
            > > Do you Yahoo!?
            > > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
            > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • David Bratman
            ... Advice: whenever you see a hidden/secret interpretation of anything, that includes a phrase like The parallels are too striking to be entirely
            Message 5 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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              At 06:19 PM 12/2/2004 +0200, ANIL ERKAN wrote:

              >Actually when I just searched google with
              >Paranoia Magazine tolkien..I came up with the following website
              >http://www.darkstar1.co.uk/ring.html

              Advice: whenever you see a "hidden/secret interpretation" of anything, that
              includes a phrase like "The parallels are too striking to be entirely
              coincidental," run away quickly. Do not look back, or you risk being
              turned into a pillar of salt.
            • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
              Thank you, Diamond. Now I get to look up syncretism. And thank you, Katie, for the other post with links. Lizzie Elizabeth Apgar Triano
              Message 6 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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                Thank you, Diamond. Now I get to look up "syncretism."

                And thank you, Katie, for the other post with links.

                Lizzie

                Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                lizziewriter@...
                amor vincit omnia
                www.lizziewriter.com
                www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org


                > [Original Message]
                > From: Stolzi <Stolzi@...>
                > To: Mythopoeic Society <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                > Date: 12/2/2004 2:53:23 PM
                > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry
                >
                >
                > I took a look at the article; some amazing coincidences, I agree, but I
                > think that is all they are, coincidences.
                >
                > Freemasonry at its upper levels teaches what many, many Christians regard
                as
                > unChristian doctrines (syncretism, mostly); many Evangelicals would say
                > this, as well as Roman Catholics.
                >
                > This page
                >
                > http://www.clearlightcatholic.com/masonic/whataremasons.htm
                >
                > gives some details.
                >
                > Freemasonry in Europe, in my understanding, was always much more
                > anti-clerical and politically revolutionary than the rather more sober
                > Freemasons of England and (by derivation) N. America.
                >
                > It is true that George Washington and several other US Presidents who
                > considered themselves Christians did belong to the Freemasons.
                >
                > Diamond Proudbrook
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • dianejoy@earthlink.net
                As do I. I m a member of the Order of the Eastern Star, the ladies auxilliary of the Masons. As was my aunt (a devout Baptist). We also have a Catholic
                Message 7 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
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                  As do I. I'm a member of the Order of the Eastern Star, the "ladies
                  auxilliary" of the Masons. As was my aunt (a devout Baptist). We also
                  have a Catholic woman in our Chapter. OES these days is a guttering
                  candle, and mostly, we do charitable work.

                  However, Masons don't discuss the intricacies of their organization, even
                  with members of the OES.

                  As for Tolkien's connection with Masonry: I don't think so. First of all,
                  he was meeting with the Inklings at the Eagle and Child and in CSL's rooms.
                  Being a Mason (esp. during the period in which he could have been enrolled)
                  takes time. Since reading his letters, I'm struck with how little time he
                  felt he had for writing; I think he'd have invested any spare time into
                  writing, rather than going to more meetings. (Though Charles Williams was a
                  member of the Order of the Golden Dawn. IIRC, he resigned from that group.
                  I think.) The Paranoia article was interesting, but mostly for what you
                  learn about Rosicrucians. ---djb

                  Original Message:
                  -----------------
                  From: Stolzi Stolzi@...
                  Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 10:45:25 -0600
                  To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry



                  I took a look at the article; some amazing coincidences, I agree, but I
                  think that is all they are, coincidences.

                  Freemasonry at its upper levels teaches what many, many Christians regard as
                  unChristian doctrines (syncretism, mostly); many Evangelicals would say
                  this, as well as Roman Catholics.

                  This page

                  http://www.clearlightcatholic.com/masonic/whataremasons.htm

                  gives some details.

                  Freemasonry in Europe, in my understanding, was always much more
                  anti-clerical and politically revolutionary than the rather more sober
                  Freemasons of England and (by derivation) N. America.

                  It is true that George Washington and several other US Presidents who
                  considered themselves Christians did belong to the Freemasons.

                  Diamond Proudbrook







                  The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                  Yahoo! Groups Links








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                • Stolzi
                  ... From: To: Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 9:49 AM Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry ...
                  Message 8 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
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                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: <dianejoy@...>
                    To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 9:49 AM
                    Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry



                    > As for Tolkien's connection with Masonry: I don't think so. First of
                    all,
                    > he was meeting with the Inklings at the Eagle and Child and in CSL's
                    rooms.
                    > Being a Mason (esp. during the period in which he could have been
                    enrolled)
                    > takes time. Since reading his letters, I'm struck with how little time he
                    > felt he had for writing; I think he'd have invested any spare time into
                    > writing, rather than going to more meetings.

                    But this is really far beside the point! Is there anyone here who wants to
                    suggest Tolkien was playing a double game with his Church? The Church he
                    loved so dearly and for which (he believed) his mother gave her life? =I=
                    for one certainly wouldn't suggest it. That Church imposed EXCOMMUNICATION,
                    by canon law, upon any Catholic who joined the Masons. Tolkien was a
                    well-educated man (to say the least!) who would have known this perfectly
                    well.

                    Citation: ' Since the decree "In Eminenti" of Pope Clement XII in 1738,
                    Catholics have been forbidden to jojn the Masons, and until 1983, under pain
                    of excommunication.

                    ' On Nov. 26, 1983, with the approval of Pope John Paul II, the Sacred
                    Congregation reiterated the ban on Catholics joining the Masons: "The
                    Church's negative position on Masonic association ... remains unaltered,
                    since their principles have always been regarded as irreconcilable with the
                    Church's doctrine. Hence, joining them remains prohibited by the Church.
                    Catholics enrolled in masonic associations are involved in serious sin and
                    may not approach Holy Communion." '

                    Diamond Proudbrook
                  • Mike Foster
                    Stolzi s comment is apt. The only thing less likely than JRRT being a Mason was him being a New York Yankees fan. Mike ... [Non-text portions of this message
                    Message 9 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
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                      Stolzi's comment is apt. The only thing less likely than JRRT being a
                      Mason was him being a New York Yankees' fan.

                      Mike

                      Stolzi wrote:

                      >----- Original Message -----
                      >From: <dianejoy@...>
                      >To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                      >Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 9:49 AM
                      >Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >>As for Tolkien's connection with Masonry: I don't think so. First of
                      >>
                      >>
                      >all,
                      >
                      >
                      >>he was meeting with the Inklings at the Eagle and Child and in CSL's
                      >>
                      >>
                      >rooms.
                      >
                      >
                      >>Being a Mason (esp. during the period in which he could have been
                      >>
                      >>
                      >enrolled)
                      >
                      >
                      >>takes time. Since reading his letters, I'm struck with how little time he
                      >>felt he had for writing; I think he'd have invested any spare time into
                      >>writing, rather than going to more meetings.
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >But this is really far beside the point! Is there anyone here who wants to
                      >suggest Tolkien was playing a double game with his Church? The Church he
                      >loved so dearly and for which (he believed) his mother gave her life? =I=
                      >for one certainly wouldn't suggest it. That Church imposed EXCOMMUNICATION,
                      >by canon law, upon any Catholic who joined the Masons. Tolkien was a
                      >well-educated man (to say the least!) who would have known this perfectly
                      >well.
                      >
                      >Citation: ' Since the decree "In Eminenti" of Pope Clement XII in 1738,
                      >Catholics have been forbidden to jojn the Masons, and until 1983, under pain
                      >of excommunication.
                      >
                      >' On Nov. 26, 1983, with the approval of Pope John Paul II, the Sacred
                      >Congregation reiterated the ban on Catholics joining the Masons: "The
                      >Church's negative position on Masonic association ... remains unaltered,
                      >since their principles have always been regarded as irreconcilable with the
                      >Church's doctrine. Hence, joining them remains prohibited by the Church.
                      >Catholics enrolled in masonic associations are involved in serious sin and
                      >may not approach Holy Communion." '
                      >
                      >Diamond Proudbrook
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                      >Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • AMV Howard
                      However, the original question was asked in connection with the Eye of Sauron, a fairly clear symbol of evil. Is it not then possible that Tolkien was
                      Message 10 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
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                        However, the original question was asked in connection with the Eye of
                        Sauron, a fairly clear symbol of evil. Is it not then possible that
                        Tolkien was appropriating a well-known (was it well-known at the
                        time?) Masonic image as a way to speak against the order?

                        /A


                        On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 21:18:13 -0600, Mike Foster <mafoster@...> wrote:
                        > Stolzi's comment is apt. The only thing less likely than JRRT being a
                        > Mason was him being a New York Yankees' fan.
                        >
                        > Mike
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Stolzi wrote:
                        >
                        > >----- Original Message -----
                        > >From: <dianejoy@...>
                        > >To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                        > >Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 9:49 AM
                        > >Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >>As for Tolkien's connection with Masonry: I don't think so. First of
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >all,
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >>he was meeting with the Inklings at the Eagle and Child and in CSL's
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >rooms.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >>Being a Mason (esp. during the period in which he could have been
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >enrolled)
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >>takes time. Since reading his letters, I'm struck with how little time he
                        > >>felt he had for writing; I think he'd have invested any spare time into
                        > >>writing, rather than going to more meetings.
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >But this is really far beside the point! Is there anyone here who wants
                        > to
                        > >suggest Tolkien was playing a double game with his Church? The Church he
                        > >loved so dearly and for which (he believed) his mother gave her life? =I=
                        > >for one certainly wouldn't suggest it. That Church imposed
                        > EXCOMMUNICATION,
                        > >by canon law, upon any Catholic who joined the Masons. Tolkien was a
                        > >well-educated man (to say the least!) who would have known this perfectly
                        > >well.
                        > >
                        > >Citation: ' Since the decree "In Eminenti" of Pope Clement XII in 1738,
                        > >Catholics have been forbidden to jojn the Masons, and until 1983, under
                        > pain
                        > >of excommunication.
                        > >
                        > >' On Nov. 26, 1983, with the approval of Pope John Paul II, the Sacred
                        > >Congregation reiterated the ban on Catholics joining the Masons: "The
                        > >Church's negative position on Masonic association ... remains unaltered,
                        > >since their principles have always been regarded as irreconcilable with
                        > the
                        > >Church's doctrine. Hence, joining them remains prohibited by the Church.
                        > >Catholics enrolled in masonic associations are involved in serious sin and
                        > >may not approach Holy Communion." '
                        > >
                        > >Diamond Proudbrook
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                        > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                        >
                        >
                        >
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                      • Carl F. Hostetter
                        ... It s on the back of every (US) dollar bill.
                        Message 11 of 23 , Dec 4, 2004
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                          On Dec 3, 2004, at 10:32 PM, AMV Howard wrote:

                          > However, the original question was asked in connection with the Eye of
                          > Sauron, a fairly clear symbol of evil. Is it not then possible that
                          > Tolkien was appropriating a well-known (was it well-known at the
                          > time?) Masonic image as a way to speak against the order?

                          It's on the back of every (US) dollar bill.
                        • Stolzi
                          ... From: Carl F. Hostetter ... Cleanse thyself of evil, Carl: send me all your dollars. Diamond Proudbrook
                          Message 12 of 23 , Dec 4, 2004
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                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Carl F. Hostetter" <Aelfwine@...>

                            > On Dec 3, 2004, at 10:32 PM, AMV Howard wrote:
                            >
                            > > However, the original question was asked in connection with the Eye of
                            > > Sauron, a fairly clear symbol of evil. Is it not then possible that
                            > > Tolkien was appropriating a well-known (was it well-known at the
                            > > time?) Masonic image as a way to speak against the order?
                            >
                            > It's on the back of every (US) dollar bill.

                            Cleanse thyself of evil, Carl: send me all your dollars.

                            Diamond Proudbrook
                          • dianejoy@earthlink.net
                            ... From: Stolzi Stolzi@comcast.net Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 13:53:12 -0600 To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry ... From:
                            Message 13 of 23 , Dec 4, 2004
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                              Original Message:
                              -----------------
                              From: Stolzi Stolzi@...
                              Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 13:53:12 -0600
                              To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry



                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: <dianejoy@...>
                              To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 9:49 AM
                              Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry



                              > As for Tolkien's connection with Masonry: I don't think so. First of
                              all,
                              > he was meeting with the Inklings at the Eagle and Child and in CSL's
                              rooms.
                              > Being a Mason (esp. during the period in which he could have been
                              enrolled)
                              > takes time. Since reading his letters, I'm struck with how little time he
                              > felt he had for writing; I think he'd have invested any spare time into
                              > writing, rather than going to more meetings.

                              >> But this is really far beside the point!

                              Actually, no, it's not. I'm making an argument from the standpoint of
                              *practical reasoning,* not from moral principle. I do not begin to suggest
                              that Tolkien WAS a Mason, but provide a very salutory reason why he would
                              not even consider it, simply because he would not want to attend the
                              meetings required. Aside from the moral questions, time was a major factor
                              for JRRT. He was more interested in writing than in going to meetings
                              (unless they were with the Inklings.) So the likelihood of his being a
                              Mason reduces all the more, quite apart from his obedience to Church
                              teaching, which would have come first, I'm sure.



                              > Is there anyone here who wants to suggest Tolkien was playing a double
                              > game with his Church? The Church heloved so dearly and for which (he
                              > believed) his mother gave her life? =I= for one certainly wouldn't
                              suggest > it. That Church imposed EXCOMMUNICATION,by canon law, upon any
                              Catholic > who joined the Masons. Tolkien was awell-educated man (to say
                              the least!) > who would have known this perfectly well.

                              Indeed; and for the reasons I cited above, I doubt he would have joined
                              the Knights of Columbus or a similar English group (assuming they existed
                              at that time.)

                              Citation: ' Since the decree "In Eminenti" of Pope Clement XII in 1738,
                              Catholics have been forbidden to jojn the Masons, and until 1983, under pain
                              of excommunication.

                              ' On Nov. 26, 1983, with the approval of Pope John Paul II, the Sacred
                              Congregation reiterated the ban on Catholics joining the Masons: "The
                              Church's negative position on Masonic association ... remains unaltered,
                              since their principles have always been regarded as irreconcilable with the
                              Church's doctrine. Hence, joining them remains prohibited by the Church.
                              Catholics enrolled in masonic associations are involved in serious sin and
                              may not approach Holy Communion." '

                              Diamond Proudbrook







                              The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                              Yahoo! Groups Links








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                            • Carl F. Hostetter
                              ... Too late, I ve already sent them all to eBay and Amazon! Carl
                              Message 14 of 23 , Dec 4, 2004
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                                On Dec 4, 2004, at 1:55 PM, Stolzi wrote:

                                > Cleanse thyself of evil, Carl: send me all your dollars.

                                Too late, I've already sent them all to eBay and Amazon!

                                Carl
                              • Stolzi
                                ... From: ... In looking up the K of C (founded 1882) I found this site http://www.kofc.org/about/museum/detail.cfm?id=4158 which
                                Message 15 of 23 , Dec 4, 2004
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                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: <dianejoy@...>

                                  > the Knights of Columbus or a similar English group (assuming they existed
                                  > at that time.)
                                  >

                                  In looking up the K of C (founded 1882) I found this site

                                  http://www.kofc.org/about/museum/detail.cfm?id=4158

                                  which shows some really dreamy old lithographs of the Holy Land made by a
                                  Scottish artist in 1838-39. Some might enjoy a Christmastime look at them,
                                  though alas, they don't seem to blow up into larger renditions. [Nor can
                                  you find larger versions at the permanent home of the lithographs, Duke
                                  University's Nasher Museum.]

                                  I seem to remember (harking back now to NATIONAL TREASURE) the Knights of
                                  Columbus and the Rosicrucians (AMORC) running dueling ad campaigns. The art
                                  work was somewhat similar, as was size and placement, and both promised men
                                  an instructive course you could write away for. Since both the Catholic
                                  Church and the Rosicrucians were =terra incognita= to your average
                                  magazine-reading middle-American Protestant male in my youth (and even now,
                                  I suppose), both may have gotten takers.

                                  The Ancient Wisdom has now made it to a more modern venue, the Web:

                                  http://www.amorc.org/

                                  But they'll still send you a "Free Introductory Booklet"! No need for
                                  dollars, Carl!

                                  Diamond Proudbrook
                                • Beth Russell
                                  ... From: Stolzi [mailto:Stolzi@comcast.net] Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 2:45 PM To: Mythopoeic Society Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Dec 4, 2004
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                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Stolzi [mailto:Stolzi@...]
                                    Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 2:45 PM
                                    To: Mythopoeic Society
                                    Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry


                                    Since both the Catholic
                                    Church and the Rosicrucians were =terra incognita= to your average
                                    magazine-reading middle-American Protestant male in my youth (and even
                                    now,
                                    I suppose), both may have gotten takers.

                                    The Ancient Wisdom has now made it to a more modern venue, the Web:




                                    Has it also made it to the Tolkenian publishing world?

                                    Robert Ellwood's book, "Frodo's Quest" was published by the Theosophical
                                    Publ. House. Are they related to the Rosicrucians? AMORC not mentioned
                                    on their website...

                                    Cheers,

                                    Beth






                                    The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  • WendellWag@aol.com
                                    In a message dated 12/2/2004 3:06:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Stolzi@comcast.net writes: It is true that George Washington and several other US Presidents
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Dec 5, 2004
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                                      In a message dated 12/2/2004 3:06:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                                      Stolzi@... writes:

                                      It is true that George Washington and several other US Presidents who
                                      considered themselves Christians did belong to the Freemasons.



                                      It isn't really clear how Christian some of our founding fathers were.
                                      About Jefferson, there's no doubt that he was more of a Deist, since we have his
                                      writings about religious subjects. He published a "version" of the New
                                      Testament, which was a "cut out the things you don't like" version. Franklin also
                                      was a Deist. Washington it's harder to tell about. He gave lip service to
                                      being an Anglican/Episcopalian, but his writings make him sound more like a
                                      Deist. All this is irrelevant, in my view, to whether you agree with their
                                      political views. In my opinion, it's not necessary to agree with someone's
                                      politics to agree with their religion, and it's not necessary to agree with
                                      someone's religion to agree with their politics.

                                      Wendell Wagner


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Stolzi
                                      ... From: ... have his ... Yes; I wasn t including him in my list of Masonic Presidents; as far as I know TJ was not a Mason. Was
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Dec 5, 2004
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                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: <WendellWag@...>

                                        >
                                        > It isn't really clear how Christian some of our founding fathers were.
                                        > About Jefferson, there's no doubt that he was more of a Deist, since we
                                        have his
                                        > writings about religious subjects.

                                        Yes; I wasn't including him in my list of Masonic Presidents; as far as I
                                        know TJ was not a Mason. Was Franklin, for that matter? (Of course BF was
                                        not a President, though I once sent a correction to a web merchant who
                                        apptly believed that he was.)

                                        Because of his plain dress and his PA zip code, there were some, I believe,
                                        who fingered Franklin as a Quaker, which he was not.

                                        Show on History Channel about Franklin tonight, but I incline more towards
                                        MythBusters:

                                        "Sunday, December 5, 2004 at 8:00 PM (ET) on Discovery Channel:
                                        MythBusters
                                        Ming Dynasty Astronaut
                                        Buster takes the hot seat in the Mojave Desert in the myth of the 'Ming
                                        Dynasty Astronaut.' Will Buster defy the laws of gravity and survive an
                                        explosive launch into space? Adam and Jamie play mad scientists in the
                                        quest for free energy."

                                        History Channel is trying to milk the NATIONAL TREASURE cow, with a show
                                        about Bible Codes right before Franklin, and having Nicholas Cage host the
                                        Franklin show. But those in the mood cd equally well watch "Ramses: Wrath
                                        of God or Man?" on Discovery, right after the MythBusters.

                                        Diamond Proudbrook
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