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Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry

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  • Carl F. Hostetter
    ... Sure, here s mine: 1) As I understand it, the symbol of the Eye in Masonic mythology is a reference to the Eye of Thoth, who was in Renaissance Hermetism
    Message 1 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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      On Dec 2, 2004, at 7:28 AM, anilerkan wrote:

      > Has anybody read anywhere that there could be a relationship between
      > LOTR and freemasonry.
      >
      > Especially the eye in the book (and movie) are to similar to miss.
      >
      > Any body have any views on this?

      Sure, here's mine:

      1) As I understand it, the symbol of the Eye in Masonic mythology is a
      reference to the Eye of Thoth, who was in Renaissance Hermetism (the
      source of Masonry) equated
      with Hermes -- held by the ancients to be the source of knowledge,
      practical and magical, including writing -- and thus with Hermes
      Trismegistus, whom the Hemetists wrongly believed to be the author of a
      number of ancient, pre-Mosaic alchemical texts that were taken as
      representing an ancient, pristine, and prefiguring form of
      Christianity. (In fact, the texts were later shown on linguistic and
      historical grounds to be 2nd to 3rd century Gnostic texts.) The upshot
      being that, to the Masons, the Eye represents wisdom and true knowledge
      and all sorts of other good, profound, and holy associations.

      2) The Eye of Sauron is a metaphor, a symbol of the Enemy's burning,
      consuming, and questing malevolence, wholly evil.

      3) The Eye of Peter Jackson's movie is a comical misreading of Tolkien,
      taking a metaphor and turning it into a giant, literal sight gag (puns
      intended).

      The three things really have nothing at all in common.


      --
      =============================================
      Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org

      ho bios brachys, he de techne makre.
      Ars longa, vita brevis.
      The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.
      "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take such
      a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."
    • Larry Swain
      ... It reminds one of the discussion of similarities between Tolkien s Ring and Wagner s Ring and Tolkien s response along the lines of they re both rings,
      Message 2 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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        >
        >
        >
        > On Dec 2, 2004, at 7:28 AM, anilerkan wrote:
        >
        > > Has anybody read anywhere that there could be a relationship between
        > > LOTR and freemasonry.
        > >
        > > Especially the eye in the book (and movie) are to similar to miss.
        > >
        > > Any body have any views on this?
        >
        > Sure, here's mine:
        >
        > 1) As I understand it, the symbol of the Eye in Masonic mythology is a
        > reference to the Eye of Thoth, who was in Renaissance Hermetism (the
        > source of Masonry) equated
        > with Hermes -- held by the ancients to be the source of knowledge,
        > practical and magical, including writing -- and thus with Hermes
        > Trismegistus, whom the Hemetists wrongly believed to be the author of a
        > number of ancient, pre-Mosaic alchemical texts that were taken as
        > representing an ancient, pristine, and prefiguring form of
        > Christianity. (In fact, the texts were later shown on linguistic and
        > historical grounds to be 2nd to 3rd century Gnostic texts.) The upshot
        > being that, to the Masons, the Eye represents wisdom and true knowledge
        > and all sorts of other good, profound, and holy associations.
        >
        > 2) The Eye of Sauron is a metaphor, a symbol of the Enemy's burning,
        > consuming, and questing malevolence, wholly evil.
        >
        > 3) The Eye of Peter Jackson's movie is a comical misreading of Tolkien,
        > taking a metaphor and turning it into a giant, literal sight gag (puns
        > intended).
        >
        > The three things really have nothing at all in common.

        It reminds one of the discussion of similarities between Tolkien's Ring and Wagner's Ring and Tolkien's response along the lines of "they're both rings, and there the comparison ends." Same here, they're both eyes.....

        Larry Swain
        --
        _____________________________________________________________
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        From your mailbox to local or overseas cell phones.

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      • Stolzi
        Welcome to the List, Anil!! ... From: Carl F. Hostetter ... The big, big problem here is that Tolkien was a devout Roman Catholic and
        Message 3 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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          Welcome to the List, Anil!!

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Carl F. Hostetter" <Aelfwine@...>
          >
          > On Dec 2, 2004, at 7:28 AM, anilerkan wrote:
          >
          > > Has anybody read anywhere that there could be a relationship between
          > > LOTR and freemasonry.

          The big, big problem here is that Tolkien was a devout Roman Catholic and as
          such would have considered
          Freemasonry anathema.

          > On Dec 2, 2004, at 7:28 AM, anilerkan continued:

          > > Any body have any views on this?

          =Views= on the =eye=, huh? Giggle snort

          And Carl replied among other things:

          > 3) The Eye of Peter Jackson's movie is a comical misreading of Tolkien,

          I was watching something on CBS - sports, I think - when they actually
          began
          to run a border of flames all around and over and through the CBS Eye.
          Could (gasp) Dan Rather REALLY be Sauron?! Giggle snort again


          Diamond Proudbrook
        • ANIL ERKAN
          Thanks for the welcome... I have some stuff on hand not with me at the moment whihc I will share to the group related freemasonry and tolkien. I am not trying
          Message 4 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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            Thanks for the welcome...

            I have some stuff on hand not with me at the moment whihc I will share
            to the group related freemasonry and tolkien.

            I am not trying to prove that there is a link but just try to
            understand...If there is a relationship it might be another way of
            trying to understand the book...

            On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 12:28:20 -0000, anilerkan <anilerkan@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Has anybody read anywhere that there could be a relationship between
            > LOTR and freemasonry.
            >
            > Especially the eye in the book (and movie) are to similar to miss.
            >
            > Any body have any views on this?
            >
            >
            > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Daniel Dimitroff
            Try Paranoia Magazine Issue #34. Tolkien & Planet X Always a credible source. Dan ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps
            Message 5 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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              Try Paranoia Magazine Issue #34.

              "Tolkien & Planet X"

              Always a credible source.

              Dan
              --- anilerkan <anilerkan@...> wrote:

              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Has anybody read anywhere that there could be a relationship between
              > LOTR and freemasonry.
              >
              > Especially the eye in the book (and movie) are to similar to miss.
              >
              > Any body have any views on this?
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >




              __________________________________
              Do you Yahoo!?
              Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
              http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
            • ANIL ERKAN
              Actually when I just searched google with Paranoia Magazine tolkien..I came up with the following website http://www.darkstar1.co.uk/ring.html On Thu, 2 Dec
              Message 6 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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                Actually when I just searched google with

                Paranoia Magazine tolkien..I came up with the following website

                http://www.darkstar1.co.uk/ring.html




                On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 07:51:30 -0800 (PST), Daniel Dimitroff
                <nightcrawler51@...> wrote:
                >
                > Try Paranoia Magazine Issue #34.
                >
                > "Tolkien & Planet X"
                >
                > Always a credible source.
                >
                > Dan
                > --- anilerkan <anilerkan@...> wrote:
                >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Has anybody read anywhere that there could be a relationship between
                > > LOTR and freemasonry.
                > >
                > > Especially the eye in the book (and movie) are to similar to miss.
                > >
                > > Any body have any views on this?
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > __________________________________
                > Do you Yahoo!?
                > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
                > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • Stolzi
                I took a look at the article; some amazing coincidences, I agree, but I think that is all they are, coincidences. Freemasonry at its upper levels teaches what
                Message 7 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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                  I took a look at the article; some amazing coincidences, I agree, but I
                  think that is all they are, coincidences.

                  Freemasonry at its upper levels teaches what many, many Christians regard as
                  unChristian doctrines (syncretism, mostly); many Evangelicals would say
                  this, as well as Roman Catholics.

                  This page

                  http://www.clearlightcatholic.com/masonic/whataremasons.htm

                  gives some details.

                  Freemasonry in Europe, in my understanding, was always much more
                  anti-clerical and politically revolutionary than the rather more sober
                  Freemasons of England and (by derivation) N. America.

                  It is true that George Washington and several other US Presidents who
                  considered themselves Christians did belong to the Freemasons.

                  Diamond Proudbrook
                • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                  Neat. And I like the Orpheus talisman link. I don t like some of the comparative religion or whatever it is that I have read recently. I don t know if it
                  Message 8 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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                    Neat. And I like the Orpheus talisman link.

                    I don't like some of the "comparative religion" or whatever it is that I
                    have read recently. I don't know if it is a newer trend or just one that I
                    hadn't managed to catch up with before, but things like "Osiris-Dionysus"
                    and other amalgamations of characters from divergent cultures strikes me as
                    rather less illuminating than otherwise.

                    It is all well and interesting to research cultures and find connections.
                    But there are only so many images and many will be shared, and that does
                    not mean that they are connected. Sometimes they will be, and sometimes
                    they will be only in the sense that they both point to similar things (a
                    ring is hard and endless and easily portable, so it lends itself to
                    symbolism), and sometimes they won't mean the same thing at all, even
                    though they look similar to an ignorant outsider (such as a person from a
                    different time and place).

                    I think things have gotten a bit sloppier since Tolkien's time. I could be
                    wrong, but I think there was a lot more basic study that folks had to do
                    back when. Nowadays any idiot with a keyboard can "publish" anything.

                    Lizzie

                    Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                    lizziewriter@...
                    amor vincit omnia
                    www.lizziewriter.com
                    www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org


                    > [Original Message]
                    > From: ANIL ERKAN <anilerkan@...>
                    > To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Date: 12/2/2004 11:19:40 AM
                    > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry
                    >
                    >
                    > Actually when I just searched google with
                    >
                    > Paranoia Magazine tolkien..I came up with the following website
                    >
                    > http://www.darkstar1.co.uk/ring.html
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 07:51:30 -0800 (PST), Daniel Dimitroff
                    > <nightcrawler51@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Try Paranoia Magazine Issue #34.
                    > >
                    > > "Tolkien & Planet X"
                    > >
                    > > Always a credible source.
                    > >
                    > > Dan
                    > > --- anilerkan <anilerkan@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Has anybody read anywhere that there could be a relationship between
                    > > > LOTR and freemasonry.
                    > > >
                    > > > Especially the eye in the book (and movie) are to similar to miss.
                    > > >
                    > > > Any body have any views on this?
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                    > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > __________________________________
                    > > Do you Yahoo!?
                    > > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
                    > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • David Bratman
                    ... Advice: whenever you see a hidden/secret interpretation of anything, that includes a phrase like The parallels are too striking to be entirely
                    Message 9 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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                      At 06:19 PM 12/2/2004 +0200, ANIL ERKAN wrote:

                      >Actually when I just searched google with
                      >Paranoia Magazine tolkien..I came up with the following website
                      >http://www.darkstar1.co.uk/ring.html

                      Advice: whenever you see a "hidden/secret interpretation" of anything, that
                      includes a phrase like "The parallels are too striking to be entirely
                      coincidental," run away quickly. Do not look back, or you risk being
                      turned into a pillar of salt.
                    • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                      Thank you, Diamond. Now I get to look up syncretism. And thank you, Katie, for the other post with links. Lizzie Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                      Message 10 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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                        Thank you, Diamond. Now I get to look up "syncretism."

                        And thank you, Katie, for the other post with links.

                        Lizzie

                        Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                        lizziewriter@...
                        amor vincit omnia
                        www.lizziewriter.com
                        www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org


                        > [Original Message]
                        > From: Stolzi <Stolzi@...>
                        > To: Mythopoeic Society <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Date: 12/2/2004 2:53:23 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry
                        >
                        >
                        > I took a look at the article; some amazing coincidences, I agree, but I
                        > think that is all they are, coincidences.
                        >
                        > Freemasonry at its upper levels teaches what many, many Christians regard
                        as
                        > unChristian doctrines (syncretism, mostly); many Evangelicals would say
                        > this, as well as Roman Catholics.
                        >
                        > This page
                        >
                        > http://www.clearlightcatholic.com/masonic/whataremasons.htm
                        >
                        > gives some details.
                        >
                        > Freemasonry in Europe, in my understanding, was always much more
                        > anti-clerical and politically revolutionary than the rather more sober
                        > Freemasons of England and (by derivation) N. America.
                        >
                        > It is true that George Washington and several other US Presidents who
                        > considered themselves Christians did belong to the Freemasons.
                        >
                        > Diamond Proudbrook
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • dianejoy@earthlink.net
                        As do I. I m a member of the Order of the Eastern Star, the ladies auxilliary of the Masons. As was my aunt (a devout Baptist). We also have a Catholic
                        Message 11 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
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                          As do I. I'm a member of the Order of the Eastern Star, the "ladies
                          auxilliary" of the Masons. As was my aunt (a devout Baptist). We also
                          have a Catholic woman in our Chapter. OES these days is a guttering
                          candle, and mostly, we do charitable work.

                          However, Masons don't discuss the intricacies of their organization, even
                          with members of the OES.

                          As for Tolkien's connection with Masonry: I don't think so. First of all,
                          he was meeting with the Inklings at the Eagle and Child and in CSL's rooms.
                          Being a Mason (esp. during the period in which he could have been enrolled)
                          takes time. Since reading his letters, I'm struck with how little time he
                          felt he had for writing; I think he'd have invested any spare time into
                          writing, rather than going to more meetings. (Though Charles Williams was a
                          member of the Order of the Golden Dawn. IIRC, he resigned from that group.
                          I think.) The Paranoia article was interesting, but mostly for what you
                          learn about Rosicrucians. ---djb

                          Original Message:
                          -----------------
                          From: Stolzi Stolzi@...
                          Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 10:45:25 -0600
                          To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry



                          I took a look at the article; some amazing coincidences, I agree, but I
                          think that is all they are, coincidences.

                          Freemasonry at its upper levels teaches what many, many Christians regard as
                          unChristian doctrines (syncretism, mostly); many Evangelicals would say
                          this, as well as Roman Catholics.

                          This page

                          http://www.clearlightcatholic.com/masonic/whataremasons.htm

                          gives some details.

                          Freemasonry in Europe, in my understanding, was always much more
                          anti-clerical and politically revolutionary than the rather more sober
                          Freemasons of England and (by derivation) N. America.

                          It is true that George Washington and several other US Presidents who
                          considered themselves Christians did belong to the Freemasons.

                          Diamond Proudbrook







                          The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                          Yahoo! Groups Links








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                        • Stolzi
                          ... From: To: Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 9:49 AM Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry ...
                          Message 12 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
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                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: <dianejoy@...>
                            To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 9:49 AM
                            Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry



                            > As for Tolkien's connection with Masonry: I don't think so. First of
                            all,
                            > he was meeting with the Inklings at the Eagle and Child and in CSL's
                            rooms.
                            > Being a Mason (esp. during the period in which he could have been
                            enrolled)
                            > takes time. Since reading his letters, I'm struck with how little time he
                            > felt he had for writing; I think he'd have invested any spare time into
                            > writing, rather than going to more meetings.

                            But this is really far beside the point! Is there anyone here who wants to
                            suggest Tolkien was playing a double game with his Church? The Church he
                            loved so dearly and for which (he believed) his mother gave her life? =I=
                            for one certainly wouldn't suggest it. That Church imposed EXCOMMUNICATION,
                            by canon law, upon any Catholic who joined the Masons. Tolkien was a
                            well-educated man (to say the least!) who would have known this perfectly
                            well.

                            Citation: ' Since the decree "In Eminenti" of Pope Clement XII in 1738,
                            Catholics have been forbidden to jojn the Masons, and until 1983, under pain
                            of excommunication.

                            ' On Nov. 26, 1983, with the approval of Pope John Paul II, the Sacred
                            Congregation reiterated the ban on Catholics joining the Masons: "The
                            Church's negative position on Masonic association ... remains unaltered,
                            since their principles have always been regarded as irreconcilable with the
                            Church's doctrine. Hence, joining them remains prohibited by the Church.
                            Catholics enrolled in masonic associations are involved in serious sin and
                            may not approach Holy Communion." '

                            Diamond Proudbrook
                          • Mike Foster
                            Stolzi s comment is apt. The only thing less likely than JRRT being a Mason was him being a New York Yankees fan. Mike ... [Non-text portions of this message
                            Message 13 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
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                              Stolzi's comment is apt. The only thing less likely than JRRT being a
                              Mason was him being a New York Yankees' fan.

                              Mike

                              Stolzi wrote:

                              >----- Original Message -----
                              >From: <dianejoy@...>
                              >To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                              >Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 9:49 AM
                              >Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >>As for Tolkien's connection with Masonry: I don't think so. First of
                              >>
                              >>
                              >all,
                              >
                              >
                              >>he was meeting with the Inklings at the Eagle and Child and in CSL's
                              >>
                              >>
                              >rooms.
                              >
                              >
                              >>Being a Mason (esp. during the period in which he could have been
                              >>
                              >>
                              >enrolled)
                              >
                              >
                              >>takes time. Since reading his letters, I'm struck with how little time he
                              >>felt he had for writing; I think he'd have invested any spare time into
                              >>writing, rather than going to more meetings.
                              >>
                              >>
                              >
                              >But this is really far beside the point! Is there anyone here who wants to
                              >suggest Tolkien was playing a double game with his Church? The Church he
                              >loved so dearly and for which (he believed) his mother gave her life? =I=
                              >for one certainly wouldn't suggest it. That Church imposed EXCOMMUNICATION,
                              >by canon law, upon any Catholic who joined the Masons. Tolkien was a
                              >well-educated man (to say the least!) who would have known this perfectly
                              >well.
                              >
                              >Citation: ' Since the decree "In Eminenti" of Pope Clement XII in 1738,
                              >Catholics have been forbidden to jojn the Masons, and until 1983, under pain
                              >of excommunication.
                              >
                              >' On Nov. 26, 1983, with the approval of Pope John Paul II, the Sacred
                              >Congregation reiterated the ban on Catholics joining the Masons: "The
                              >Church's negative position on Masonic association ... remains unaltered,
                              >since their principles have always been regarded as irreconcilable with the
                              >Church's doctrine. Hence, joining them remains prohibited by the Church.
                              >Catholics enrolled in masonic associations are involved in serious sin and
                              >may not approach Holy Communion." '
                              >
                              >Diamond Proudbrook
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                              >Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • AMV Howard
                              However, the original question was asked in connection with the Eye of Sauron, a fairly clear symbol of evil. Is it not then possible that Tolkien was
                              Message 14 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
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                                However, the original question was asked in connection with the Eye of
                                Sauron, a fairly clear symbol of evil. Is it not then possible that
                                Tolkien was appropriating a well-known (was it well-known at the
                                time?) Masonic image as a way to speak against the order?

                                /A


                                On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 21:18:13 -0600, Mike Foster <mafoster@...> wrote:
                                > Stolzi's comment is apt. The only thing less likely than JRRT being a
                                > Mason was him being a New York Yankees' fan.
                                >
                                > Mike
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Stolzi wrote:
                                >
                                > >----- Original Message -----
                                > >From: <dianejoy@...>
                                > >To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                                > >Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 9:49 AM
                                > >Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >>As for Tolkien's connection with Masonry: I don't think so. First of
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >all,
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >>he was meeting with the Inklings at the Eagle and Child and in CSL's
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >rooms.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >>Being a Mason (esp. during the period in which he could have been
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >enrolled)
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >>takes time. Since reading his letters, I'm struck with how little time he
                                > >>felt he had for writing; I think he'd have invested any spare time into
                                > >>writing, rather than going to more meetings.
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >
                                > >But this is really far beside the point! Is there anyone here who wants
                                > to
                                > >suggest Tolkien was playing a double game with his Church? The Church he
                                > >loved so dearly and for which (he believed) his mother gave her life? =I=
                                > >for one certainly wouldn't suggest it. That Church imposed
                                > EXCOMMUNICATION,
                                > >by canon law, upon any Catholic who joined the Masons. Tolkien was a
                                > >well-educated man (to say the least!) who would have known this perfectly
                                > >well.
                                > >
                                > >Citation: ' Since the decree "In Eminenti" of Pope Clement XII in 1738,
                                > >Catholics have been forbidden to jojn the Masons, and until 1983, under
                                > pain
                                > >of excommunication.
                                > >
                                > >' On Nov. 26, 1983, with the approval of Pope John Paul II, the Sacred
                                > >Congregation reiterated the ban on Catholics joining the Masons: "The
                                > >Church's negative position on Masonic association ... remains unaltered,
                                > >since their principles have always been regarded as irreconcilable with
                                > the
                                > >Church's doctrine. Hence, joining them remains prohibited by the Church.
                                > >Catholics enrolled in masonic associations are involved in serious sin and
                                > >may not approach Holy Communion." '
                                > >
                                > >Diamond Proudbrook
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                                > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                                >
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                              • Carl F. Hostetter
                                ... It s on the back of every (US) dollar bill.
                                Message 15 of 23 , Dec 4, 2004
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                                  On Dec 3, 2004, at 10:32 PM, AMV Howard wrote:

                                  > However, the original question was asked in connection with the Eye of
                                  > Sauron, a fairly clear symbol of evil. Is it not then possible that
                                  > Tolkien was appropriating a well-known (was it well-known at the
                                  > time?) Masonic image as a way to speak against the order?

                                  It's on the back of every (US) dollar bill.
                                • Stolzi
                                  ... From: Carl F. Hostetter ... Cleanse thyself of evil, Carl: send me all your dollars. Diamond Proudbrook
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Dec 4, 2004
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                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Carl F. Hostetter" <Aelfwine@...>

                                    > On Dec 3, 2004, at 10:32 PM, AMV Howard wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > However, the original question was asked in connection with the Eye of
                                    > > Sauron, a fairly clear symbol of evil. Is it not then possible that
                                    > > Tolkien was appropriating a well-known (was it well-known at the
                                    > > time?) Masonic image as a way to speak against the order?
                                    >
                                    > It's on the back of every (US) dollar bill.

                                    Cleanse thyself of evil, Carl: send me all your dollars.

                                    Diamond Proudbrook
                                  • dianejoy@earthlink.net
                                    ... From: Stolzi Stolzi@comcast.net Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 13:53:12 -0600 To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry ... From:
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Dec 4, 2004
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                                      Original Message:
                                      -----------------
                                      From: Stolzi Stolzi@...
                                      Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 13:53:12 -0600
                                      To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry



                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: <dianejoy@...>
                                      To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 9:49 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry



                                      > As for Tolkien's connection with Masonry: I don't think so. First of
                                      all,
                                      > he was meeting with the Inklings at the Eagle and Child and in CSL's
                                      rooms.
                                      > Being a Mason (esp. during the period in which he could have been
                                      enrolled)
                                      > takes time. Since reading his letters, I'm struck with how little time he
                                      > felt he had for writing; I think he'd have invested any spare time into
                                      > writing, rather than going to more meetings.

                                      >> But this is really far beside the point!

                                      Actually, no, it's not. I'm making an argument from the standpoint of
                                      *practical reasoning,* not from moral principle. I do not begin to suggest
                                      that Tolkien WAS a Mason, but provide a very salutory reason why he would
                                      not even consider it, simply because he would not want to attend the
                                      meetings required. Aside from the moral questions, time was a major factor
                                      for JRRT. He was more interested in writing than in going to meetings
                                      (unless they were with the Inklings.) So the likelihood of his being a
                                      Mason reduces all the more, quite apart from his obedience to Church
                                      teaching, which would have come first, I'm sure.



                                      > Is there anyone here who wants to suggest Tolkien was playing a double
                                      > game with his Church? The Church heloved so dearly and for which (he
                                      > believed) his mother gave her life? =I= for one certainly wouldn't
                                      suggest > it. That Church imposed EXCOMMUNICATION,by canon law, upon any
                                      Catholic > who joined the Masons. Tolkien was awell-educated man (to say
                                      the least!) > who would have known this perfectly well.

                                      Indeed; and for the reasons I cited above, I doubt he would have joined
                                      the Knights of Columbus or a similar English group (assuming they existed
                                      at that time.)

                                      Citation: ' Since the decree "In Eminenti" of Pope Clement XII in 1738,
                                      Catholics have been forbidden to jojn the Masons, and until 1983, under pain
                                      of excommunication.

                                      ' On Nov. 26, 1983, with the approval of Pope John Paul II, the Sacred
                                      Congregation reiterated the ban on Catholics joining the Masons: "The
                                      Church's negative position on Masonic association ... remains unaltered,
                                      since their principles have always been regarded as irreconcilable with the
                                      Church's doctrine. Hence, joining them remains prohibited by the Church.
                                      Catholics enrolled in masonic associations are involved in serious sin and
                                      may not approach Holy Communion." '

                                      Diamond Proudbrook







                                      The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                                      Yahoo! Groups Links








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                                    • Carl F. Hostetter
                                      ... Too late, I ve already sent them all to eBay and Amazon! Carl
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Dec 4, 2004
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                                        On Dec 4, 2004, at 1:55 PM, Stolzi wrote:

                                        > Cleanse thyself of evil, Carl: send me all your dollars.

                                        Too late, I've already sent them all to eBay and Amazon!

                                        Carl
                                      • Stolzi
                                        ... From: ... In looking up the K of C (founded 1882) I found this site http://www.kofc.org/about/museum/detail.cfm?id=4158 which
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Dec 4, 2004
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                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: <dianejoy@...>

                                          > the Knights of Columbus or a similar English group (assuming they existed
                                          > at that time.)
                                          >

                                          In looking up the K of C (founded 1882) I found this site

                                          http://www.kofc.org/about/museum/detail.cfm?id=4158

                                          which shows some really dreamy old lithographs of the Holy Land made by a
                                          Scottish artist in 1838-39. Some might enjoy a Christmastime look at them,
                                          though alas, they don't seem to blow up into larger renditions. [Nor can
                                          you find larger versions at the permanent home of the lithographs, Duke
                                          University's Nasher Museum.]

                                          I seem to remember (harking back now to NATIONAL TREASURE) the Knights of
                                          Columbus and the Rosicrucians (AMORC) running dueling ad campaigns. The art
                                          work was somewhat similar, as was size and placement, and both promised men
                                          an instructive course you could write away for. Since both the Catholic
                                          Church and the Rosicrucians were =terra incognita= to your average
                                          magazine-reading middle-American Protestant male in my youth (and even now,
                                          I suppose), both may have gotten takers.

                                          The Ancient Wisdom has now made it to a more modern venue, the Web:

                                          http://www.amorc.org/

                                          But they'll still send you a "Free Introductory Booklet"! No need for
                                          dollars, Carl!

                                          Diamond Proudbrook
                                        • Beth Russell
                                          ... From: Stolzi [mailto:Stolzi@comcast.net] Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 2:45 PM To: Mythopoeic Society Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Dec 4, 2004
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                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: Stolzi [mailto:Stolzi@...]
                                            Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 2:45 PM
                                            To: Mythopoeic Society
                                            Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry


                                            Since both the Catholic
                                            Church and the Rosicrucians were =terra incognita= to your average
                                            magazine-reading middle-American Protestant male in my youth (and even
                                            now,
                                            I suppose), both may have gotten takers.

                                            The Ancient Wisdom has now made it to a more modern venue, the Web:




                                            Has it also made it to the Tolkenian publishing world?

                                            Robert Ellwood's book, "Frodo's Quest" was published by the Theosophical
                                            Publ. House. Are they related to the Rosicrucians? AMORC not mentioned
                                            on their website...

                                            Cheers,

                                            Beth






                                            The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                                            Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          • WendellWag@aol.com
                                            In a message dated 12/2/2004 3:06:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Stolzi@comcast.net writes: It is true that George Washington and several other US Presidents
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Dec 5, 2004
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                                              In a message dated 12/2/2004 3:06:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                                              Stolzi@... writes:

                                              It is true that George Washington and several other US Presidents who
                                              considered themselves Christians did belong to the Freemasons.



                                              It isn't really clear how Christian some of our founding fathers were.
                                              About Jefferson, there's no doubt that he was more of a Deist, since we have his
                                              writings about religious subjects. He published a "version" of the New
                                              Testament, which was a "cut out the things you don't like" version. Franklin also
                                              was a Deist. Washington it's harder to tell about. He gave lip service to
                                              being an Anglican/Episcopalian, but his writings make him sound more like a
                                              Deist. All this is irrelevant, in my view, to whether you agree with their
                                              political views. In my opinion, it's not necessary to agree with someone's
                                              politics to agree with their religion, and it's not necessary to agree with
                                              someone's religion to agree with their politics.

                                              Wendell Wagner


                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Stolzi
                                              ... From: ... have his ... Yes; I wasn t including him in my list of Masonic Presidents; as far as I know TJ was not a Mason. Was
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Dec 5, 2004
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                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                From: <WendellWag@...>

                                                >
                                                > It isn't really clear how Christian some of our founding fathers were.
                                                > About Jefferson, there's no doubt that he was more of a Deist, since we
                                                have his
                                                > writings about religious subjects.

                                                Yes; I wasn't including him in my list of Masonic Presidents; as far as I
                                                know TJ was not a Mason. Was Franklin, for that matter? (Of course BF was
                                                not a President, though I once sent a correction to a web merchant who
                                                apptly believed that he was.)

                                                Because of his plain dress and his PA zip code, there were some, I believe,
                                                who fingered Franklin as a Quaker, which he was not.

                                                Show on History Channel about Franklin tonight, but I incline more towards
                                                MythBusters:

                                                "Sunday, December 5, 2004 at 8:00 PM (ET) on Discovery Channel:
                                                MythBusters
                                                Ming Dynasty Astronaut
                                                Buster takes the hot seat in the Mojave Desert in the myth of the 'Ming
                                                Dynasty Astronaut.' Will Buster defy the laws of gravity and survive an
                                                explosive launch into space? Adam and Jamie play mad scientists in the
                                                quest for free energy."

                                                History Channel is trying to milk the NATIONAL TREASURE cow, with a show
                                                about Bible Codes right before Franklin, and having Nicholas Cage host the
                                                Franklin show. But those in the mood cd equally well watch "Ramses: Wrath
                                                of God or Man?" on Discovery, right after the MythBusters.

                                                Diamond Proudbrook
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