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Tolkien and Freemasonry

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  • anilerkan
    Has anybody read anywhere that there could be a relationship between LOTR and freemasonry. Especially the eye in the book (and movie) are to similar to miss.
    Message 1 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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      Has anybody read anywhere that there could be a relationship between
      LOTR and freemasonry.

      Especially the eye in the book (and movie) are to similar to miss.

      Any body have any views on this?
    • Carl F. Hostetter
      ... Sure, here s mine: 1) As I understand it, the symbol of the Eye in Masonic mythology is a reference to the Eye of Thoth, who was in Renaissance Hermetism
      Message 2 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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        On Dec 2, 2004, at 7:28 AM, anilerkan wrote:

        > Has anybody read anywhere that there could be a relationship between
        > LOTR and freemasonry.
        >
        > Especially the eye in the book (and movie) are to similar to miss.
        >
        > Any body have any views on this?

        Sure, here's mine:

        1) As I understand it, the symbol of the Eye in Masonic mythology is a
        reference to the Eye of Thoth, who was in Renaissance Hermetism (the
        source of Masonry) equated
        with Hermes -- held by the ancients to be the source of knowledge,
        practical and magical, including writing -- and thus with Hermes
        Trismegistus, whom the Hemetists wrongly believed to be the author of a
        number of ancient, pre-Mosaic alchemical texts that were taken as
        representing an ancient, pristine, and prefiguring form of
        Christianity. (In fact, the texts were later shown on linguistic and
        historical grounds to be 2nd to 3rd century Gnostic texts.) The upshot
        being that, to the Masons, the Eye represents wisdom and true knowledge
        and all sorts of other good, profound, and holy associations.

        2) The Eye of Sauron is a metaphor, a symbol of the Enemy's burning,
        consuming, and questing malevolence, wholly evil.

        3) The Eye of Peter Jackson's movie is a comical misreading of Tolkien,
        taking a metaphor and turning it into a giant, literal sight gag (puns
        intended).

        The three things really have nothing at all in common.


        --
        =============================================
        Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org

        ho bios brachys, he de techne makre.
        Ars longa, vita brevis.
        The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.
        "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take such
        a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."
      • Larry Swain
        ... It reminds one of the discussion of similarities between Tolkien s Ring and Wagner s Ring and Tolkien s response along the lines of they re both rings,
        Message 3 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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          >
          >
          >
          > On Dec 2, 2004, at 7:28 AM, anilerkan wrote:
          >
          > > Has anybody read anywhere that there could be a relationship between
          > > LOTR and freemasonry.
          > >
          > > Especially the eye in the book (and movie) are to similar to miss.
          > >
          > > Any body have any views on this?
          >
          > Sure, here's mine:
          >
          > 1) As I understand it, the symbol of the Eye in Masonic mythology is a
          > reference to the Eye of Thoth, who was in Renaissance Hermetism (the
          > source of Masonry) equated
          > with Hermes -- held by the ancients to be the source of knowledge,
          > practical and magical, including writing -- and thus with Hermes
          > Trismegistus, whom the Hemetists wrongly believed to be the author of a
          > number of ancient, pre-Mosaic alchemical texts that were taken as
          > representing an ancient, pristine, and prefiguring form of
          > Christianity. (In fact, the texts were later shown on linguistic and
          > historical grounds to be 2nd to 3rd century Gnostic texts.) The upshot
          > being that, to the Masons, the Eye represents wisdom and true knowledge
          > and all sorts of other good, profound, and holy associations.
          >
          > 2) The Eye of Sauron is a metaphor, a symbol of the Enemy's burning,
          > consuming, and questing malevolence, wholly evil.
          >
          > 3) The Eye of Peter Jackson's movie is a comical misreading of Tolkien,
          > taking a metaphor and turning it into a giant, literal sight gag (puns
          > intended).
          >
          > The three things really have nothing at all in common.

          It reminds one of the discussion of similarities between Tolkien's Ring and Wagner's Ring and Tolkien's response along the lines of "they're both rings, and there the comparison ends." Same here, they're both eyes.....

          Larry Swain
          --
          _____________________________________________________________
          Web-based SMS services available at http://www.operamail.com
          From your mailbox to local or overseas cell phones.

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        • Stolzi
          Welcome to the List, Anil!! ... From: Carl F. Hostetter ... The big, big problem here is that Tolkien was a devout Roman Catholic and
          Message 4 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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            Welcome to the List, Anil!!

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Carl F. Hostetter" <Aelfwine@...>
            >
            > On Dec 2, 2004, at 7:28 AM, anilerkan wrote:
            >
            > > Has anybody read anywhere that there could be a relationship between
            > > LOTR and freemasonry.

            The big, big problem here is that Tolkien was a devout Roman Catholic and as
            such would have considered
            Freemasonry anathema.

            > On Dec 2, 2004, at 7:28 AM, anilerkan continued:

            > > Any body have any views on this?

            =Views= on the =eye=, huh? Giggle snort

            And Carl replied among other things:

            > 3) The Eye of Peter Jackson's movie is a comical misreading of Tolkien,

            I was watching something on CBS - sports, I think - when they actually
            began
            to run a border of flames all around and over and through the CBS Eye.
            Could (gasp) Dan Rather REALLY be Sauron?! Giggle snort again


            Diamond Proudbrook
          • ANIL ERKAN
            Thanks for the welcome... I have some stuff on hand not with me at the moment whihc I will share to the group related freemasonry and tolkien. I am not trying
            Message 5 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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              Thanks for the welcome...

              I have some stuff on hand not with me at the moment whihc I will share
              to the group related freemasonry and tolkien.

              I am not trying to prove that there is a link but just try to
              understand...If there is a relationship it might be another way of
              trying to understand the book...

              On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 12:28:20 -0000, anilerkan <anilerkan@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Has anybody read anywhere that there could be a relationship between
              > LOTR and freemasonry.
              >
              > Especially the eye in the book (and movie) are to similar to miss.
              >
              > Any body have any views on this?
              >
              >
              > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Daniel Dimitroff
              Try Paranoia Magazine Issue #34. Tolkien & Planet X Always a credible source. Dan ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps
              Message 6 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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                Try Paranoia Magazine Issue #34.

                "Tolkien & Planet X"

                Always a credible source.

                Dan
                --- anilerkan <anilerkan@...> wrote:

                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Has anybody read anywhere that there could be a relationship between
                > LOTR and freemasonry.
                >
                > Especially the eye in the book (and movie) are to similar to miss.
                >
                > Any body have any views on this?
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >




                __________________________________
                Do you Yahoo!?
                Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
                http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
              • ANIL ERKAN
                Actually when I just searched google with Paranoia Magazine tolkien..I came up with the following website http://www.darkstar1.co.uk/ring.html On Thu, 2 Dec
                Message 7 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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                  Actually when I just searched google with

                  Paranoia Magazine tolkien..I came up with the following website

                  http://www.darkstar1.co.uk/ring.html




                  On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 07:51:30 -0800 (PST), Daniel Dimitroff
                  <nightcrawler51@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Try Paranoia Magazine Issue #34.
                  >
                  > "Tolkien & Planet X"
                  >
                  > Always a credible source.
                  >
                  > Dan
                  > --- anilerkan <anilerkan@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Has anybody read anywhere that there could be a relationship between
                  > > LOTR and freemasonry.
                  > >
                  > > Especially the eye in the book (and movie) are to similar to miss.
                  > >
                  > > Any body have any views on this?
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > __________________________________
                  > Do you Yahoo!?
                  > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
                  > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Stolzi
                  I took a look at the article; some amazing coincidences, I agree, but I think that is all they are, coincidences. Freemasonry at its upper levels teaches what
                  Message 8 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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                    I took a look at the article; some amazing coincidences, I agree, but I
                    think that is all they are, coincidences.

                    Freemasonry at its upper levels teaches what many, many Christians regard as
                    unChristian doctrines (syncretism, mostly); many Evangelicals would say
                    this, as well as Roman Catholics.

                    This page

                    http://www.clearlightcatholic.com/masonic/whataremasons.htm

                    gives some details.

                    Freemasonry in Europe, in my understanding, was always much more
                    anti-clerical and politically revolutionary than the rather more sober
                    Freemasons of England and (by derivation) N. America.

                    It is true that George Washington and several other US Presidents who
                    considered themselves Christians did belong to the Freemasons.

                    Diamond Proudbrook
                  • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                    Neat. And I like the Orpheus talisman link. I don t like some of the comparative religion or whatever it is that I have read recently. I don t know if it
                    Message 9 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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                      Neat. And I like the Orpheus talisman link.

                      I don't like some of the "comparative religion" or whatever it is that I
                      have read recently. I don't know if it is a newer trend or just one that I
                      hadn't managed to catch up with before, but things like "Osiris-Dionysus"
                      and other amalgamations of characters from divergent cultures strikes me as
                      rather less illuminating than otherwise.

                      It is all well and interesting to research cultures and find connections.
                      But there are only so many images and many will be shared, and that does
                      not mean that they are connected. Sometimes they will be, and sometimes
                      they will be only in the sense that they both point to similar things (a
                      ring is hard and endless and easily portable, so it lends itself to
                      symbolism), and sometimes they won't mean the same thing at all, even
                      though they look similar to an ignorant outsider (such as a person from a
                      different time and place).

                      I think things have gotten a bit sloppier since Tolkien's time. I could be
                      wrong, but I think there was a lot more basic study that folks had to do
                      back when. Nowadays any idiot with a keyboard can "publish" anything.

                      Lizzie

                      Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                      lizziewriter@...
                      amor vincit omnia
                      www.lizziewriter.com
                      www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org


                      > [Original Message]
                      > From: ANIL ERKAN <anilerkan@...>
                      > To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Date: 12/2/2004 11:19:40 AM
                      > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry
                      >
                      >
                      > Actually when I just searched google with
                      >
                      > Paranoia Magazine tolkien..I came up with the following website
                      >
                      > http://www.darkstar1.co.uk/ring.html
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 07:51:30 -0800 (PST), Daniel Dimitroff
                      > <nightcrawler51@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Try Paranoia Magazine Issue #34.
                      > >
                      > > "Tolkien & Planet X"
                      > >
                      > > Always a credible source.
                      > >
                      > > Dan
                      > > --- anilerkan <anilerkan@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Has anybody read anywhere that there could be a relationship between
                      > > > LOTR and freemasonry.
                      > > >
                      > > > Especially the eye in the book (and movie) are to similar to miss.
                      > > >
                      > > > Any body have any views on this?
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                      > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > __________________________________
                      > > Do you Yahoo!?
                      > > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
                      > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • David Bratman
                      ... Advice: whenever you see a hidden/secret interpretation of anything, that includes a phrase like The parallels are too striking to be entirely
                      Message 10 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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                        At 06:19 PM 12/2/2004 +0200, ANIL ERKAN wrote:

                        >Actually when I just searched google with
                        >Paranoia Magazine tolkien..I came up with the following website
                        >http://www.darkstar1.co.uk/ring.html

                        Advice: whenever you see a "hidden/secret interpretation" of anything, that
                        includes a phrase like "The parallels are too striking to be entirely
                        coincidental," run away quickly. Do not look back, or you risk being
                        turned into a pillar of salt.
                      • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                        Thank you, Diamond. Now I get to look up syncretism. And thank you, Katie, for the other post with links. Lizzie Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                        Message 11 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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                          Thank you, Diamond. Now I get to look up "syncretism."

                          And thank you, Katie, for the other post with links.

                          Lizzie

                          Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                          lizziewriter@...
                          amor vincit omnia
                          www.lizziewriter.com
                          www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org


                          > [Original Message]
                          > From: Stolzi <Stolzi@...>
                          > To: Mythopoeic Society <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Date: 12/2/2004 2:53:23 PM
                          > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry
                          >
                          >
                          > I took a look at the article; some amazing coincidences, I agree, but I
                          > think that is all they are, coincidences.
                          >
                          > Freemasonry at its upper levels teaches what many, many Christians regard
                          as
                          > unChristian doctrines (syncretism, mostly); many Evangelicals would say
                          > this, as well as Roman Catholics.
                          >
                          > This page
                          >
                          > http://www.clearlightcatholic.com/masonic/whataremasons.htm
                          >
                          > gives some details.
                          >
                          > Freemasonry in Europe, in my understanding, was always much more
                          > anti-clerical and politically revolutionary than the rather more sober
                          > Freemasons of England and (by derivation) N. America.
                          >
                          > It is true that George Washington and several other US Presidents who
                          > considered themselves Christians did belong to the Freemasons.
                          >
                          > Diamond Proudbrook
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • dianejoy@earthlink.net
                          As do I. I m a member of the Order of the Eastern Star, the ladies auxilliary of the Masons. As was my aunt (a devout Baptist). We also have a Catholic
                          Message 12 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
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                            As do I. I'm a member of the Order of the Eastern Star, the "ladies
                            auxilliary" of the Masons. As was my aunt (a devout Baptist). We also
                            have a Catholic woman in our Chapter. OES these days is a guttering
                            candle, and mostly, we do charitable work.

                            However, Masons don't discuss the intricacies of their organization, even
                            with members of the OES.

                            As for Tolkien's connection with Masonry: I don't think so. First of all,
                            he was meeting with the Inklings at the Eagle and Child and in CSL's rooms.
                            Being a Mason (esp. during the period in which he could have been enrolled)
                            takes time. Since reading his letters, I'm struck with how little time he
                            felt he had for writing; I think he'd have invested any spare time into
                            writing, rather than going to more meetings. (Though Charles Williams was a
                            member of the Order of the Golden Dawn. IIRC, he resigned from that group.
                            I think.) The Paranoia article was interesting, but mostly for what you
                            learn about Rosicrucians. ---djb

                            Original Message:
                            -----------------
                            From: Stolzi Stolzi@...
                            Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 10:45:25 -0600
                            To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry



                            I took a look at the article; some amazing coincidences, I agree, but I
                            think that is all they are, coincidences.

                            Freemasonry at its upper levels teaches what many, many Christians regard as
                            unChristian doctrines (syncretism, mostly); many Evangelicals would say
                            this, as well as Roman Catholics.

                            This page

                            http://www.clearlightcatholic.com/masonic/whataremasons.htm

                            gives some details.

                            Freemasonry in Europe, in my understanding, was always much more
                            anti-clerical and politically revolutionary than the rather more sober
                            Freemasons of England and (by derivation) N. America.

                            It is true that George Washington and several other US Presidents who
                            considered themselves Christians did belong to the Freemasons.

                            Diamond Proudbrook







                            The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                            Yahoo! Groups Links








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                          • Stolzi
                            ... From: To: Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 9:49 AM Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry ...
                            Message 13 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
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                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: <dianejoy@...>
                              To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 9:49 AM
                              Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry



                              > As for Tolkien's connection with Masonry: I don't think so. First of
                              all,
                              > he was meeting with the Inklings at the Eagle and Child and in CSL's
                              rooms.
                              > Being a Mason (esp. during the period in which he could have been
                              enrolled)
                              > takes time. Since reading his letters, I'm struck with how little time he
                              > felt he had for writing; I think he'd have invested any spare time into
                              > writing, rather than going to more meetings.

                              But this is really far beside the point! Is there anyone here who wants to
                              suggest Tolkien was playing a double game with his Church? The Church he
                              loved so dearly and for which (he believed) his mother gave her life? =I=
                              for one certainly wouldn't suggest it. That Church imposed EXCOMMUNICATION,
                              by canon law, upon any Catholic who joined the Masons. Tolkien was a
                              well-educated man (to say the least!) who would have known this perfectly
                              well.

                              Citation: ' Since the decree "In Eminenti" of Pope Clement XII in 1738,
                              Catholics have been forbidden to jojn the Masons, and until 1983, under pain
                              of excommunication.

                              ' On Nov. 26, 1983, with the approval of Pope John Paul II, the Sacred
                              Congregation reiterated the ban on Catholics joining the Masons: "The
                              Church's negative position on Masonic association ... remains unaltered,
                              since their principles have always been regarded as irreconcilable with the
                              Church's doctrine. Hence, joining them remains prohibited by the Church.
                              Catholics enrolled in masonic associations are involved in serious sin and
                              may not approach Holy Communion." '

                              Diamond Proudbrook
                            • Mike Foster
                              Stolzi s comment is apt. The only thing less likely than JRRT being a Mason was him being a New York Yankees fan. Mike ... [Non-text portions of this message
                              Message 14 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
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                                Stolzi's comment is apt. The only thing less likely than JRRT being a
                                Mason was him being a New York Yankees' fan.

                                Mike

                                Stolzi wrote:

                                >----- Original Message -----
                                >From: <dianejoy@...>
                                >To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                                >Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 9:49 AM
                                >Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >>As for Tolkien's connection with Masonry: I don't think so. First of
                                >>
                                >>
                                >all,
                                >
                                >
                                >>he was meeting with the Inklings at the Eagle and Child and in CSL's
                                >>
                                >>
                                >rooms.
                                >
                                >
                                >>Being a Mason (esp. during the period in which he could have been
                                >>
                                >>
                                >enrolled)
                                >
                                >
                                >>takes time. Since reading his letters, I'm struck with how little time he
                                >>felt he had for writing; I think he'd have invested any spare time into
                                >>writing, rather than going to more meetings.
                                >>
                                >>
                                >
                                >But this is really far beside the point! Is there anyone here who wants to
                                >suggest Tolkien was playing a double game with his Church? The Church he
                                >loved so dearly and for which (he believed) his mother gave her life? =I=
                                >for one certainly wouldn't suggest it. That Church imposed EXCOMMUNICATION,
                                >by canon law, upon any Catholic who joined the Masons. Tolkien was a
                                >well-educated man (to say the least!) who would have known this perfectly
                                >well.
                                >
                                >Citation: ' Since the decree "In Eminenti" of Pope Clement XII in 1738,
                                >Catholics have been forbidden to jojn the Masons, and until 1983, under pain
                                >of excommunication.
                                >
                                >' On Nov. 26, 1983, with the approval of Pope John Paul II, the Sacred
                                >Congregation reiterated the ban on Catholics joining the Masons: "The
                                >Church's negative position on Masonic association ... remains unaltered,
                                >since their principles have always been regarded as irreconcilable with the
                                >Church's doctrine. Hence, joining them remains prohibited by the Church.
                                >Catholics enrolled in masonic associations are involved in serious sin and
                                >may not approach Holy Communion." '
                                >
                                >Diamond Proudbrook
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • AMV Howard
                                However, the original question was asked in connection with the Eye of Sauron, a fairly clear symbol of evil. Is it not then possible that Tolkien was
                                Message 15 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
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                                  However, the original question was asked in connection with the Eye of
                                  Sauron, a fairly clear symbol of evil. Is it not then possible that
                                  Tolkien was appropriating a well-known (was it well-known at the
                                  time?) Masonic image as a way to speak against the order?

                                  /A


                                  On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 21:18:13 -0600, Mike Foster <mafoster@...> wrote:
                                  > Stolzi's comment is apt. The only thing less likely than JRRT being a
                                  > Mason was him being a New York Yankees' fan.
                                  >
                                  > Mike
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Stolzi wrote:
                                  >
                                  > >----- Original Message -----
                                  > >From: <dianejoy@...>
                                  > >To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                                  > >Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 9:49 AM
                                  > >Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >>As for Tolkien's connection with Masonry: I don't think so. First of
                                  > >>
                                  > >>
                                  > >all,
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >>he was meeting with the Inklings at the Eagle and Child and in CSL's
                                  > >>
                                  > >>
                                  > >rooms.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >>Being a Mason (esp. during the period in which he could have been
                                  > >>
                                  > >>
                                  > >enrolled)
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >>takes time. Since reading his letters, I'm struck with how little time he
                                  > >>felt he had for writing; I think he'd have invested any spare time into
                                  > >>writing, rather than going to more meetings.
                                  > >>
                                  > >>
                                  > >
                                  > >But this is really far beside the point! Is there anyone here who wants
                                  > to
                                  > >suggest Tolkien was playing a double game with his Church? The Church he
                                  > >loved so dearly and for which (he believed) his mother gave her life? =I=
                                  > >for one certainly wouldn't suggest it. That Church imposed
                                  > EXCOMMUNICATION,
                                  > >by canon law, upon any Catholic who joined the Masons. Tolkien was a
                                  > >well-educated man (to say the least!) who would have known this perfectly
                                  > >well.
                                  > >
                                  > >Citation: ' Since the decree "In Eminenti" of Pope Clement XII in 1738,
                                  > >Catholics have been forbidden to jojn the Masons, and until 1983, under
                                  > pain
                                  > >of excommunication.
                                  > >
                                  > >' On Nov. 26, 1983, with the approval of Pope John Paul II, the Sacred
                                  > >Congregation reiterated the ban on Catholics joining the Masons: "The
                                  > >Church's negative position on Masonic association ... remains unaltered,
                                  > >since their principles have always been regarded as irreconcilable with
                                  > the
                                  > >Church's doctrine. Hence, joining them remains prohibited by the Church.
                                  > >Catholics enrolled in masonic associations are involved in serious sin and
                                  > >may not approach Holy Communion." '
                                  > >
                                  > >Diamond Proudbrook
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                                  > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
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                                • Carl F. Hostetter
                                  ... It s on the back of every (US) dollar bill.
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Dec 4, 2004
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                                    On Dec 3, 2004, at 10:32 PM, AMV Howard wrote:

                                    > However, the original question was asked in connection with the Eye of
                                    > Sauron, a fairly clear symbol of evil. Is it not then possible that
                                    > Tolkien was appropriating a well-known (was it well-known at the
                                    > time?) Masonic image as a way to speak against the order?

                                    It's on the back of every (US) dollar bill.
                                  • Stolzi
                                    ... From: Carl F. Hostetter ... Cleanse thyself of evil, Carl: send me all your dollars. Diamond Proudbrook
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Dec 4, 2004
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                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: "Carl F. Hostetter" <Aelfwine@...>

                                      > On Dec 3, 2004, at 10:32 PM, AMV Howard wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > However, the original question was asked in connection with the Eye of
                                      > > Sauron, a fairly clear symbol of evil. Is it not then possible that
                                      > > Tolkien was appropriating a well-known (was it well-known at the
                                      > > time?) Masonic image as a way to speak against the order?
                                      >
                                      > It's on the back of every (US) dollar bill.

                                      Cleanse thyself of evil, Carl: send me all your dollars.

                                      Diamond Proudbrook
                                    • dianejoy@earthlink.net
                                      ... From: Stolzi Stolzi@comcast.net Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 13:53:12 -0600 To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry ... From:
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Dec 4, 2004
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                                        Original Message:
                                        -----------------
                                        From: Stolzi Stolzi@...
                                        Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 13:53:12 -0600
                                        To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry



                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: <dianejoy@...>
                                        To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 9:49 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry



                                        > As for Tolkien's connection with Masonry: I don't think so. First of
                                        all,
                                        > he was meeting with the Inklings at the Eagle and Child and in CSL's
                                        rooms.
                                        > Being a Mason (esp. during the period in which he could have been
                                        enrolled)
                                        > takes time. Since reading his letters, I'm struck with how little time he
                                        > felt he had for writing; I think he'd have invested any spare time into
                                        > writing, rather than going to more meetings.

                                        >> But this is really far beside the point!

                                        Actually, no, it's not. I'm making an argument from the standpoint of
                                        *practical reasoning,* not from moral principle. I do not begin to suggest
                                        that Tolkien WAS a Mason, but provide a very salutory reason why he would
                                        not even consider it, simply because he would not want to attend the
                                        meetings required. Aside from the moral questions, time was a major factor
                                        for JRRT. He was more interested in writing than in going to meetings
                                        (unless they were with the Inklings.) So the likelihood of his being a
                                        Mason reduces all the more, quite apart from his obedience to Church
                                        teaching, which would have come first, I'm sure.



                                        > Is there anyone here who wants to suggest Tolkien was playing a double
                                        > game with his Church? The Church heloved so dearly and for which (he
                                        > believed) his mother gave her life? =I= for one certainly wouldn't
                                        suggest > it. That Church imposed EXCOMMUNICATION,by canon law, upon any
                                        Catholic > who joined the Masons. Tolkien was awell-educated man (to say
                                        the least!) > who would have known this perfectly well.

                                        Indeed; and for the reasons I cited above, I doubt he would have joined
                                        the Knights of Columbus or a similar English group (assuming they existed
                                        at that time.)

                                        Citation: ' Since the decree "In Eminenti" of Pope Clement XII in 1738,
                                        Catholics have been forbidden to jojn the Masons, and until 1983, under pain
                                        of excommunication.

                                        ' On Nov. 26, 1983, with the approval of Pope John Paul II, the Sacred
                                        Congregation reiterated the ban on Catholics joining the Masons: "The
                                        Church's negative position on Masonic association ... remains unaltered,
                                        since their principles have always been regarded as irreconcilable with the
                                        Church's doctrine. Hence, joining them remains prohibited by the Church.
                                        Catholics enrolled in masonic associations are involved in serious sin and
                                        may not approach Holy Communion." '

                                        Diamond Proudbrook







                                        The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                                        Yahoo! Groups Links








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                                        mail2web - Check your email from the web at
                                        http://mail2web.com/ .
                                      • Carl F. Hostetter
                                        ... Too late, I ve already sent them all to eBay and Amazon! Carl
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Dec 4, 2004
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                                          On Dec 4, 2004, at 1:55 PM, Stolzi wrote:

                                          > Cleanse thyself of evil, Carl: send me all your dollars.

                                          Too late, I've already sent them all to eBay and Amazon!

                                          Carl
                                        • Stolzi
                                          ... From: ... In looking up the K of C (founded 1882) I found this site http://www.kofc.org/about/museum/detail.cfm?id=4158 which
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Dec 4, 2004
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                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: <dianejoy@...>

                                            > the Knights of Columbus or a similar English group (assuming they existed
                                            > at that time.)
                                            >

                                            In looking up the K of C (founded 1882) I found this site

                                            http://www.kofc.org/about/museum/detail.cfm?id=4158

                                            which shows some really dreamy old lithographs of the Holy Land made by a
                                            Scottish artist in 1838-39. Some might enjoy a Christmastime look at them,
                                            though alas, they don't seem to blow up into larger renditions. [Nor can
                                            you find larger versions at the permanent home of the lithographs, Duke
                                            University's Nasher Museum.]

                                            I seem to remember (harking back now to NATIONAL TREASURE) the Knights of
                                            Columbus and the Rosicrucians (AMORC) running dueling ad campaigns. The art
                                            work was somewhat similar, as was size and placement, and both promised men
                                            an instructive course you could write away for. Since both the Catholic
                                            Church and the Rosicrucians were =terra incognita= to your average
                                            magazine-reading middle-American Protestant male in my youth (and even now,
                                            I suppose), both may have gotten takers.

                                            The Ancient Wisdom has now made it to a more modern venue, the Web:

                                            http://www.amorc.org/

                                            But they'll still send you a "Free Introductory Booklet"! No need for
                                            dollars, Carl!

                                            Diamond Proudbrook
                                          • Beth Russell
                                            ... From: Stolzi [mailto:Stolzi@comcast.net] Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 2:45 PM To: Mythopoeic Society Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Dec 4, 2004
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                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: Stolzi [mailto:Stolzi@...]
                                              Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 2:45 PM
                                              To: Mythopoeic Society
                                              Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien and Freemasonry


                                              Since both the Catholic
                                              Church and the Rosicrucians were =terra incognita= to your average
                                              magazine-reading middle-American Protestant male in my youth (and even
                                              now,
                                              I suppose), both may have gotten takers.

                                              The Ancient Wisdom has now made it to a more modern venue, the Web:




                                              Has it also made it to the Tolkenian publishing world?

                                              Robert Ellwood's book, "Frodo's Quest" was published by the Theosophical
                                              Publ. House. Are they related to the Rosicrucians? AMORC not mentioned
                                              on their website...

                                              Cheers,

                                              Beth






                                              The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                                              Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            • WendellWag@aol.com
                                              In a message dated 12/2/2004 3:06:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Stolzi@comcast.net writes: It is true that George Washington and several other US Presidents
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Dec 5, 2004
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                                                In a message dated 12/2/2004 3:06:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                                                Stolzi@... writes:

                                                It is true that George Washington and several other US Presidents who
                                                considered themselves Christians did belong to the Freemasons.



                                                It isn't really clear how Christian some of our founding fathers were.
                                                About Jefferson, there's no doubt that he was more of a Deist, since we have his
                                                writings about religious subjects. He published a "version" of the New
                                                Testament, which was a "cut out the things you don't like" version. Franklin also
                                                was a Deist. Washington it's harder to tell about. He gave lip service to
                                                being an Anglican/Episcopalian, but his writings make him sound more like a
                                                Deist. All this is irrelevant, in my view, to whether you agree with their
                                                political views. In my opinion, it's not necessary to agree with someone's
                                                politics to agree with their religion, and it's not necessary to agree with
                                                someone's religion to agree with their politics.

                                                Wendell Wagner


                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Stolzi
                                                ... From: ... have his ... Yes; I wasn t including him in my list of Masonic Presidents; as far as I know TJ was not a Mason. Was
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Dec 5, 2004
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                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                  From: <WendellWag@...>

                                                  >
                                                  > It isn't really clear how Christian some of our founding fathers were.
                                                  > About Jefferson, there's no doubt that he was more of a Deist, since we
                                                  have his
                                                  > writings about religious subjects.

                                                  Yes; I wasn't including him in my list of Masonic Presidents; as far as I
                                                  know TJ was not a Mason. Was Franklin, for that matter? (Of course BF was
                                                  not a President, though I once sent a correction to a web merchant who
                                                  apptly believed that he was.)

                                                  Because of his plain dress and his PA zip code, there were some, I believe,
                                                  who fingered Franklin as a Quaker, which he was not.

                                                  Show on History Channel about Franklin tonight, but I incline more towards
                                                  MythBusters:

                                                  "Sunday, December 5, 2004 at 8:00 PM (ET) on Discovery Channel:
                                                  MythBusters
                                                  Ming Dynasty Astronaut
                                                  Buster takes the hot seat in the Mojave Desert in the myth of the 'Ming
                                                  Dynasty Astronaut.' Will Buster defy the laws of gravity and survive an
                                                  explosive launch into space? Adam and Jamie play mad scientists in the
                                                  quest for free energy."

                                                  History Channel is trying to milk the NATIONAL TREASURE cow, with a show
                                                  about Bible Codes right before Franklin, and having Nicholas Cage host the
                                                  Franklin show. But those in the mood cd equally well watch "Ramses: Wrath
                                                  of God or Man?" on Discovery, right after the MythBusters.

                                                  Diamond Proudbrook
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