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RE: [mythsoc] cultural mutual incomprehension

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  • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
    Is that it? Certainly I ve heard of that. And here I thought it was some generational thing related to how the scion of one family may not relate to, say, the
    Message 1 of 11 , Dec 1, 2004
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      Is that it? Certainly I've heard of that.

      And here I thought it was some generational thing related to how the scion
      of one family may not relate to, say, the business and social callings of
      their dynasty.

      And then there's that C.P. Snow thing, which I haven't read, "The Two
      Cultures."

      Elizabeth Apgar Triano
      lizziewriter@...
      amor vincit omnia
      www.lizziewriter.com
      www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org


      > [Original Message]
      > From: steve <sschaper@...>
      > To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
      > Date: 11/30/2004 11:35:33 PM
      > Subject: [mythsoc] cultural mutual incomprehension
      >
      >
      > Berni, you have ostraca written on with Sharpies? ;-)
      >
      >
      > I think that the discussion about the 'disconnect' is about how the US
      > is now more or less two nations, the urban centers having one culture,
      > and the small town and rural areas having another. A look at the
      > county-by-county voting map is instructive.
      >
      > Here in the Free Republic of Heartland (grin), we talk about the
      > "bicoastals", but the county map shows a broken fringe of 'blue'
      > counties along the sea shore, and urban centers elsewhere, as well as
      > the traditionally DFL Iron Range and desperate farmers looking for a man
      > on a white horse.
      >
      > Commentary during and after the election make it plain that the
      > 'bicoastals' or as we used to say, "city-slickers," are clueless as to
      > our culture. It may well be that we are also clueless as to theirs, in
      > spite of cable. Twas in Kalipornea that the Declaration of Independence
      > was banned, not Kanawha, Iowa, after all.
      >
      > I think that there are all sorts of societal and worldview reasons for
      > this, but I just wanted to (sort of) explain what the "disconnect"
      > discussed was.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Berni Phillips
      From: steve ... I have no idea what you mean by this. Sharpies, I know -- I use them in my job every day. ... And this relates to
      Message 2 of 11 , Dec 1, 2004
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        From: "steve" <sschaper@...>

        > Berni, you have ostraca written on with Sharpies? ;-)

        I have no idea what you mean by this. Sharpies, I know -- I use them in my
        job every day.

        >
        > I think that the discussion about the 'disconnect' is about how the US
        > is now more or less two nations, the urban centers having one culture,
        > and the small town and rural areas having another. A look at the
        > county-by-county voting map is instructive.

        And this relates to mythopoeic literature how? I know I asked what
        exactly DJ meant, and I suspected she meant this, but I wanted her
        to spell it out. Nonetheless, it is extremely off-topic and insulting to
        many of us.

        >It may well be that we are also clueless as to theirs, in
        > spite of cable. Twas in Kalipornea that the Declaration of Independence
        > was banned, not Kanawha, Iowa, after all.

        We are not cable people ourselves. And I don't know what this "Kalipornea"
        is. I happen to live in California, and if you are calling my state, the
        land I love, that obnoxious term above, I see we have nothing to discuss.
        Many of us Californians are devout Christians -- not that that has anything
        to do with this, either (and is also off-topic). To imply that the entire
        state is involved with the porn business is extremely insulting and
        off-topic.

        And that's the last I have to say regarding this. I will go back to just
        blocking particular e-mail addresses so I don't have to read stuff
        off-topic.

        Berni
      • David Bratman
        From: steve ... Incomprehension is the word, all right. I feel obliged to point out how offensive, inappropriate, and inaccurate
        Message 3 of 11 , Dec 1, 2004
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          From: "steve" <sschaper@...>

          >It may well be that we are also clueless as to theirs, in
          > spite of cable. Twas in Kalipornea that the Declaration of Independence
          > was banned, not Kanawha, Iowa, after all.

          "Incomprehension" is the word, all right. I feel obliged to point out how
          offensive, inappropriate, and inaccurate this also is.

          First off, I didn't even at first recognize that "Kalipornea" was supposed
          to be "California", and as a crude hysterical distortion it is exactly
          equivalent to the "Amerikkka" of hysterical leftism of times past.

          Second, nobody banned the Declaration of Independence anywhere. This claim
          also is barely recognizable as a crude distortion of the story of a teacher
          - at a public school - who was ordered to stop distributing to his students
          handouts of his own devising which were attempts to propagandize for his
          religious views. They included quotes referring to God from US historical
          documents, including the Declaration. The attempt was to portray the US as
          a Christian nation, which is 1) a direct offense at every Jew [yes, Jew -
          Jews recognize that "Judeo-Christian" is an attempt to co-opt Judaism into
          Christianity], Muslim, Hindu, and everything else who live here; 2) in
          direct opposition to the principle of freedom of religion on which it was
          built; 3) not true anyway. (There are many testaments by the Founders that
          they did not intend a Christian country, and Jefferson - author of the
          Declaration - was specifically not a Christian and was sometimes falsely
          accused of being an atheist.)

          This is a list for mythopoeic fantasy, not paranoid psychological fantasy.
          Let's remember the difference.

          David Bratman
        • Katie
          ... This claim ... teacher ... students ... Heh. I was just coming here to write this. It was bad enough when it was just a school in California banning the
          Message 4 of 11 , Dec 2, 2004
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            --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, David Bratman <dbratman@e...> wrote:
            >
            > Second, nobody banned the Declaration of Independence anywhere.
            This claim
            > also is barely recognizable as a crude distortion of the story of a
            teacher
            > - at a public school - who was ordered to stop distributing to his
            students
            > handouts of his own devising which were attempts to propagandize for his
            > religious views.

            Heh. I was just coming here to write this. It was bad enough when it
            was just a school in California "banning" the Declaration of
            Independence, now it is the entire state that has banned the
            Declaration of Independence (and has apparently been renamed--because
            we hate freedom and love porn! Yay porn!)

            Really, this is the kind of attitude that leads to this disconnect. My
            upstairs neighbour has a sign in his window that says "Middle America
            Sucks." I hate looking at it. With signs like that and nicknames like
            Kalipornea, etc. the disconnect only grows wider. It's not an "east
            coast" or "west coast" or "midwest" disconnect. It is a nationwide
            disconnect that allows us to be believe that geography can somehow
            dictate people's personalities, intelligence and morality. It's dumb
            and it's hurtful. I'll respect people for who they are, not where they
            live and I kindly ask that others do the same for me.

            Also, here's a good link with an explanation of the declaration of
            independence story:

            http://www.weberrific.org/2004/11/declaration-of-independence-banned.html

            -kt
          • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
            I guess this is not the time to stand up and sing Tom Lehrer s song Smut . . . ? Lizzie Elizabeth Apgar Triano lizziewriter@earthlink.net amor vincit omnia
            Message 5 of 11 , Dec 2, 2004
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              I guess this is not the time to stand up and sing Tom Lehrer's song "Smut"
              . . . ?

              Lizzie

              Elizabeth Apgar Triano
              lizziewriter@...
              amor vincit omnia
              www.lizziewriter.com
              www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org
            • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
              from Original post: Also, here s a good link with an explanation of the declaration of independence story:
              Message 6 of 11 , Dec 2, 2004
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                from Original post:

                Also, here's a good link with an explanation of the declaration of
                independence story:

                http://www.weberrific.org/2004/11/declaration-of-independence-banned.html

                -kt

                My question:

                Actually, the first thing that came up on that link this morning (Thursday)
                was a paragraph of really foul language that meant nothing. Sort of your
                basic American dialogue that one can overhead anywhere (train, movies,
                shopping, whatever). Anyone have a better link?



                Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                lizziewriter@...
                amor vincit omnia
                www.lizziewriter.com
                www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org
              • Stolzi
                ... From: Elizabeth Apgar Triano ... (Thursday) ... Lizzie, you need to scroll down. There s a longish posting below which
                Message 7 of 11 , Dec 2, 2004
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                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Elizabeth Apgar Triano" <lizziewriter@...>

                  > http://www.weberrific.org/2004/11/declaration-of-independence-banned.html

                  > Actually, the first thing that came up on that link this morning
                  (Thursday)
                  > was a paragraph of really foul language that meant nothing. Sort of your
                  > basic American dialogue that one can overhead anywhere (train, movies,
                  > shopping, whatever). Anyone have a better link?
                  >

                  Lizzie, you need to scroll down. There's a longish posting below which
                  attempts to explain the "declaration of independence story." That was
                  probably at the top when kt posted the link.

                  Diamond Proudbrook
                • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                  Frankly, I didn t feel the urge to scroll down, given the first couple of posts I saw. I ll hear about this little anecdote some other time I suppose.
                  Message 8 of 11 , Dec 2, 2004
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                    Frankly, I didn't feel the urge to scroll down, given the first couple of
                    posts I saw. I'll hear about this little anecdote some other time I
                    suppose.

                    Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                    lizziewriter@...
                    amor vincit omnia
                    www.lizziewriter.com
                    www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org


                    > [Original Message]
                    > From: Stolzi <Stolzi@...>
                    > To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Date: 12/2/2004 9:47:11 AM
                    > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: cultural mutual incomprehension
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "Elizabeth Apgar Triano" <lizziewriter@...>
                    >
                    > >
                    http://www.weberrific.org/2004/11/declaration-of-independence-banned.html
                    >
                    > > Actually, the first thing that came up on that link this morning
                    > (Thursday)
                    > > was a paragraph of really foul language that meant nothing. Sort of
                    your
                    > > basic American dialogue that one can overhead anywhere (train, movies,
                    > > shopping, whatever). Anyone have a better link?
                    > >
                    >
                    > Lizzie, you need to scroll down. There's a longish posting below which
                    > attempts to explain the "declaration of independence story." That was
                    > probably at the top when kt posted the link.
                    >
                    > Diamond Proudbrook
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • David Bratman
                    Lizzie, I explained the banning the Declaration of Independence lie in my previous post. A public school teacher had quoted the God-referring passages of
                    Message 9 of 11 , Dec 2, 2004
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                      Lizzie, I explained the "banning the Declaration of Independence" lie in my
                      previous post. A public school teacher had quoted the God-referring
                      passages of the Declaration in religious proselytizing handouts that he was
                      illegally giving to his students. He was ordered to stop.

                      Since Steve thinks we coasters are all porn-lovers, let me put it this way.
                      Let's say there was a porn movie in which an actor, at the moment of
                      ecstacy, blurted out the phrase "life, liberty, and the pursuit of
                      happiness!" And let's say Steve was a school principal who ordered that
                      movie not to be shown in classrooms.

                      He would be just as guilty of "banning the Declaration of Independence" as
                      the school principal in the real-life case.

                      This is a non-story that certain right wing-nuts are trying to make out of
                      nothing. I live in the school district where this took place, and I don't
                      even recall reading anything about it in the papers. But it's not being
                      supressed, because I found enough when I looked for it.

                      David Bratman
                    • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                      lol Thank you, David. I did see your summary, and this follow-up was very helpful. I wonder why I didn t get an irate email forwarding of the story from my
                      Message 10 of 11 , Dec 2, 2004
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                        lol Thank you, David. I did see your summary, and this follow-up was very
                        helpful. I wonder why I didn't get an irate email forwarding of the story
                        from my dad (who is probably one of those right wing-nuts).

                        Most porn is such garbage, it's almost as bad as regular TV.

                        I would like to see California some day. I hear you have great produce,
                        year-round outdoor sports weather, and of course, those redwood trees up in
                        the north. The rest of us are just envious (or "jealous" as they say).

                        best,

                        Lizzie

                        Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                        lizziewriter@...
                        amor vincit omnia
                        www.lizziewriter.com
                        www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org


                        > [Original Message]
                        > From: David Bratman <dbratman@...>
                        > To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Date: 12/2/2004 10:31:52 AM
                        > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] cultural mutual incomprehension
                        >
                        >
                        > Lizzie, I explained the "banning the Declaration of Independence" lie in
                        my
                        > previous post. A public school teacher had quoted the God-referring
                        > passages of the Declaration in religious proselytizing handouts that he
                        was
                        > illegally giving to his students. He was ordered to stop.
                        >
                        > Since Steve thinks we coasters are all porn-lovers, let me put it this
                        way.
                        > Let's say there was a porn movie in which an actor, at the moment of
                        > ecstacy, blurted out the phrase "life, liberty, and the pursuit of
                        > happiness!" And let's say Steve was a school principal who ordered that
                        > movie not to be shown in classrooms.
                        >
                        > He would be just as guilty of "banning the Declaration of Independence" as
                        > the school principal in the real-life case.
                        >
                        > This is a non-story that certain right wing-nuts are trying to make out of
                        > nothing. I live in the school district where this took place, and I don't
                        > even recall reading anything about it in the papers. But it's not being
                        > supressed, because I found enough when I looked for it.
                        >
                        > David Bratman
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
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