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cultural mutual incomprehension

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  • steve
    Berni, you have ostraca written on with Sharpies? ;-) I think that the discussion about the disconnect is about how the US is now more or less two nations,
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 30, 2004
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      Berni, you have ostraca written on with Sharpies? ;-)


      I think that the discussion about the 'disconnect' is about how the US
      is now more or less two nations, the urban centers having one culture,
      and the small town and rural areas having another. A look at the
      county-by-county voting map is instructive.

      Here in the Free Republic of Heartland (grin), we talk about the
      "bicoastals", but the county map shows a broken fringe of 'blue'
      counties along the sea shore, and urban centers elsewhere, as well as
      the traditionally DFL Iron Range and desperate farmers looking for a man
      on a white horse.

      Commentary during and after the election make it plain that the
      'bicoastals' or as we used to say, "city-slickers," are clueless as to
      our culture. It may well be that we are also clueless as to theirs, in
      spite of cable. Twas in Kalipornea that the Declaration of Independence
      was banned, not Kanawha, Iowa, after all.

      I think that there are all sorts of societal and worldview reasons for
      this, but I just wanted to (sort of) explain what the "disconnect"
      discussed was.
    • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
      Is that it? Certainly I ve heard of that. And here I thought it was some generational thing related to how the scion of one family may not relate to, say, the
      Message 2 of 11 , Dec 1, 2004
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        Is that it? Certainly I've heard of that.

        And here I thought it was some generational thing related to how the scion
        of one family may not relate to, say, the business and social callings of
        their dynasty.

        And then there's that C.P. Snow thing, which I haven't read, "The Two
        Cultures."

        Elizabeth Apgar Triano
        lizziewriter@...
        amor vincit omnia
        www.lizziewriter.com
        www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org


        > [Original Message]
        > From: steve <sschaper@...>
        > To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
        > Date: 11/30/2004 11:35:33 PM
        > Subject: [mythsoc] cultural mutual incomprehension
        >
        >
        > Berni, you have ostraca written on with Sharpies? ;-)
        >
        >
        > I think that the discussion about the 'disconnect' is about how the US
        > is now more or less two nations, the urban centers having one culture,
        > and the small town and rural areas having another. A look at the
        > county-by-county voting map is instructive.
        >
        > Here in the Free Republic of Heartland (grin), we talk about the
        > "bicoastals", but the county map shows a broken fringe of 'blue'
        > counties along the sea shore, and urban centers elsewhere, as well as
        > the traditionally DFL Iron Range and desperate farmers looking for a man
        > on a white horse.
        >
        > Commentary during and after the election make it plain that the
        > 'bicoastals' or as we used to say, "city-slickers," are clueless as to
        > our culture. It may well be that we are also clueless as to theirs, in
        > spite of cable. Twas in Kalipornea that the Declaration of Independence
        > was banned, not Kanawha, Iowa, after all.
        >
        > I think that there are all sorts of societal and worldview reasons for
        > this, but I just wanted to (sort of) explain what the "disconnect"
        > discussed was.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Berni Phillips
        From: steve ... I have no idea what you mean by this. Sharpies, I know -- I use them in my job every day. ... And this relates to
        Message 3 of 11 , Dec 1, 2004
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          From: "steve" <sschaper@...>

          > Berni, you have ostraca written on with Sharpies? ;-)

          I have no idea what you mean by this. Sharpies, I know -- I use them in my
          job every day.

          >
          > I think that the discussion about the 'disconnect' is about how the US
          > is now more or less two nations, the urban centers having one culture,
          > and the small town and rural areas having another. A look at the
          > county-by-county voting map is instructive.

          And this relates to mythopoeic literature how? I know I asked what
          exactly DJ meant, and I suspected she meant this, but I wanted her
          to spell it out. Nonetheless, it is extremely off-topic and insulting to
          many of us.

          >It may well be that we are also clueless as to theirs, in
          > spite of cable. Twas in Kalipornea that the Declaration of Independence
          > was banned, not Kanawha, Iowa, after all.

          We are not cable people ourselves. And I don't know what this "Kalipornea"
          is. I happen to live in California, and if you are calling my state, the
          land I love, that obnoxious term above, I see we have nothing to discuss.
          Many of us Californians are devout Christians -- not that that has anything
          to do with this, either (and is also off-topic). To imply that the entire
          state is involved with the porn business is extremely insulting and
          off-topic.

          And that's the last I have to say regarding this. I will go back to just
          blocking particular e-mail addresses so I don't have to read stuff
          off-topic.

          Berni
        • David Bratman
          From: steve ... Incomprehension is the word, all right. I feel obliged to point out how offensive, inappropriate, and inaccurate
          Message 4 of 11 , Dec 1, 2004
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            From: "steve" <sschaper@...>

            >It may well be that we are also clueless as to theirs, in
            > spite of cable. Twas in Kalipornea that the Declaration of Independence
            > was banned, not Kanawha, Iowa, after all.

            "Incomprehension" is the word, all right. I feel obliged to point out how
            offensive, inappropriate, and inaccurate this also is.

            First off, I didn't even at first recognize that "Kalipornea" was supposed
            to be "California", and as a crude hysterical distortion it is exactly
            equivalent to the "Amerikkka" of hysterical leftism of times past.

            Second, nobody banned the Declaration of Independence anywhere. This claim
            also is barely recognizable as a crude distortion of the story of a teacher
            - at a public school - who was ordered to stop distributing to his students
            handouts of his own devising which were attempts to propagandize for his
            religious views. They included quotes referring to God from US historical
            documents, including the Declaration. The attempt was to portray the US as
            a Christian nation, which is 1) a direct offense at every Jew [yes, Jew -
            Jews recognize that "Judeo-Christian" is an attempt to co-opt Judaism into
            Christianity], Muslim, Hindu, and everything else who live here; 2) in
            direct opposition to the principle of freedom of religion on which it was
            built; 3) not true anyway. (There are many testaments by the Founders that
            they did not intend a Christian country, and Jefferson - author of the
            Declaration - was specifically not a Christian and was sometimes falsely
            accused of being an atheist.)

            This is a list for mythopoeic fantasy, not paranoid psychological fantasy.
            Let's remember the difference.

            David Bratman
          • Katie
            ... This claim ... teacher ... students ... Heh. I was just coming here to write this. It was bad enough when it was just a school in California banning the
            Message 5 of 11 , Dec 2, 2004
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              --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, David Bratman <dbratman@e...> wrote:
              >
              > Second, nobody banned the Declaration of Independence anywhere.
              This claim
              > also is barely recognizable as a crude distortion of the story of a
              teacher
              > - at a public school - who was ordered to stop distributing to his
              students
              > handouts of his own devising which were attempts to propagandize for his
              > religious views.

              Heh. I was just coming here to write this. It was bad enough when it
              was just a school in California "banning" the Declaration of
              Independence, now it is the entire state that has banned the
              Declaration of Independence (and has apparently been renamed--because
              we hate freedom and love porn! Yay porn!)

              Really, this is the kind of attitude that leads to this disconnect. My
              upstairs neighbour has a sign in his window that says "Middle America
              Sucks." I hate looking at it. With signs like that and nicknames like
              Kalipornea, etc. the disconnect only grows wider. It's not an "east
              coast" or "west coast" or "midwest" disconnect. It is a nationwide
              disconnect that allows us to be believe that geography can somehow
              dictate people's personalities, intelligence and morality. It's dumb
              and it's hurtful. I'll respect people for who they are, not where they
              live and I kindly ask that others do the same for me.

              Also, here's a good link with an explanation of the declaration of
              independence story:

              http://www.weberrific.org/2004/11/declaration-of-independence-banned.html

              -kt
            • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
              I guess this is not the time to stand up and sing Tom Lehrer s song Smut . . . ? Lizzie Elizabeth Apgar Triano lizziewriter@earthlink.net amor vincit omnia
              Message 6 of 11 , Dec 2, 2004
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                I guess this is not the time to stand up and sing Tom Lehrer's song "Smut"
                . . . ?

                Lizzie

                Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                lizziewriter@...
                amor vincit omnia
                www.lizziewriter.com
                www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org
              • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                from Original post: Also, here s a good link with an explanation of the declaration of independence story:
                Message 7 of 11 , Dec 2, 2004
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                  from Original post:

                  Also, here's a good link with an explanation of the declaration of
                  independence story:

                  http://www.weberrific.org/2004/11/declaration-of-independence-banned.html

                  -kt

                  My question:

                  Actually, the first thing that came up on that link this morning (Thursday)
                  was a paragraph of really foul language that meant nothing. Sort of your
                  basic American dialogue that one can overhead anywhere (train, movies,
                  shopping, whatever). Anyone have a better link?



                  Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                  lizziewriter@...
                  amor vincit omnia
                  www.lizziewriter.com
                  www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org
                • Stolzi
                  ... From: Elizabeth Apgar Triano ... (Thursday) ... Lizzie, you need to scroll down. There s a longish posting below which
                  Message 8 of 11 , Dec 2, 2004
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                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Elizabeth Apgar Triano" <lizziewriter@...>

                    > http://www.weberrific.org/2004/11/declaration-of-independence-banned.html

                    > Actually, the first thing that came up on that link this morning
                    (Thursday)
                    > was a paragraph of really foul language that meant nothing. Sort of your
                    > basic American dialogue that one can overhead anywhere (train, movies,
                    > shopping, whatever). Anyone have a better link?
                    >

                    Lizzie, you need to scroll down. There's a longish posting below which
                    attempts to explain the "declaration of independence story." That was
                    probably at the top when kt posted the link.

                    Diamond Proudbrook
                  • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                    Frankly, I didn t feel the urge to scroll down, given the first couple of posts I saw. I ll hear about this little anecdote some other time I suppose.
                    Message 9 of 11 , Dec 2, 2004
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                      Frankly, I didn't feel the urge to scroll down, given the first couple of
                      posts I saw. I'll hear about this little anecdote some other time I
                      suppose.

                      Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                      lizziewriter@...
                      amor vincit omnia
                      www.lizziewriter.com
                      www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org


                      > [Original Message]
                      > From: Stolzi <Stolzi@...>
                      > To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Date: 12/2/2004 9:47:11 AM
                      > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: cultural mutual incomprehension
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "Elizabeth Apgar Triano" <lizziewriter@...>
                      >
                      > >
                      http://www.weberrific.org/2004/11/declaration-of-independence-banned.html
                      >
                      > > Actually, the first thing that came up on that link this morning
                      > (Thursday)
                      > > was a paragraph of really foul language that meant nothing. Sort of
                      your
                      > > basic American dialogue that one can overhead anywhere (train, movies,
                      > > shopping, whatever). Anyone have a better link?
                      > >
                      >
                      > Lizzie, you need to scroll down. There's a longish posting below which
                      > attempts to explain the "declaration of independence story." That was
                      > probably at the top when kt posted the link.
                      >
                      > Diamond Proudbrook
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • David Bratman
                      Lizzie, I explained the banning the Declaration of Independence lie in my previous post. A public school teacher had quoted the God-referring passages of
                      Message 10 of 11 , Dec 2, 2004
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                        Lizzie, I explained the "banning the Declaration of Independence" lie in my
                        previous post. A public school teacher had quoted the God-referring
                        passages of the Declaration in religious proselytizing handouts that he was
                        illegally giving to his students. He was ordered to stop.

                        Since Steve thinks we coasters are all porn-lovers, let me put it this way.
                        Let's say there was a porn movie in which an actor, at the moment of
                        ecstacy, blurted out the phrase "life, liberty, and the pursuit of
                        happiness!" And let's say Steve was a school principal who ordered that
                        movie not to be shown in classrooms.

                        He would be just as guilty of "banning the Declaration of Independence" as
                        the school principal in the real-life case.

                        This is a non-story that certain right wing-nuts are trying to make out of
                        nothing. I live in the school district where this took place, and I don't
                        even recall reading anything about it in the papers. But it's not being
                        supressed, because I found enough when I looked for it.

                        David Bratman
                      • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                        lol Thank you, David. I did see your summary, and this follow-up was very helpful. I wonder why I didn t get an irate email forwarding of the story from my
                        Message 11 of 11 , Dec 2, 2004
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                          lol Thank you, David. I did see your summary, and this follow-up was very
                          helpful. I wonder why I didn't get an irate email forwarding of the story
                          from my dad (who is probably one of those right wing-nuts).

                          Most porn is such garbage, it's almost as bad as regular TV.

                          I would like to see California some day. I hear you have great produce,
                          year-round outdoor sports weather, and of course, those redwood trees up in
                          the north. The rest of us are just envious (or "jealous" as they say).

                          best,

                          Lizzie

                          Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                          lizziewriter@...
                          amor vincit omnia
                          www.lizziewriter.com
                          www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org


                          > [Original Message]
                          > From: David Bratman <dbratman@...>
                          > To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Date: 12/2/2004 10:31:52 AM
                          > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] cultural mutual incomprehension
                          >
                          >
                          > Lizzie, I explained the "banning the Declaration of Independence" lie in
                          my
                          > previous post. A public school teacher had quoted the God-referring
                          > passages of the Declaration in religious proselytizing handouts that he
                          was
                          > illegally giving to his students. He was ordered to stop.
                          >
                          > Since Steve thinks we coasters are all porn-lovers, let me put it this
                          way.
                          > Let's say there was a porn movie in which an actor, at the moment of
                          > ecstacy, blurted out the phrase "life, liberty, and the pursuit of
                          > happiness!" And let's say Steve was a school principal who ordered that
                          > movie not to be shown in classrooms.
                          >
                          > He would be just as guilty of "banning the Declaration of Independence" as
                          > the school principal in the real-life case.
                          >
                          > This is a non-story that certain right wing-nuts are trying to make out of
                          > nothing. I live in the school district where this took place, and I don't
                          > even recall reading anything about it in the papers. But it's not being
                          > supressed, because I found enough when I looked for it.
                          >
                          > David Bratman
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
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