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Re: [mythsoc] Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell author says...

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  • jack@greenmanreview.com
    * Clearly she has a loose definition of unnamed , then, because The Raven * King is a name, sort of, it s just not a proper name. More of a * description,
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 30, 2004
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      * Clearly she has a loose definition of "unnamed", then, because "The Raven
      * King" is a name, sort of, it's just not a proper name. More of a
      * description, but then "Sauron" in origin was a description, and ...
      *
      * I've got it.
      *
      * She's thinking of the Witch King, the Lord of the Nazgul. He's otherwise
      * unnamed (except for an occasional "Angmar" for the country he was once king
      * of), and "witch" is close enough of a synonym to "magician". That's gotta
      * be it.

      Thanks David. I finished the first several chapters -- it's entertaining
      in a breezy way.
    • Joshua Ellis
      ... I found a text copy of the interview on indigo.ca ( ) and from that it is clear she
      Message 2 of 12 , Oct 1, 2004
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        > She's thinking of the Witch King, the Lord of
        > the Nazgul. He's otherwise unnamed (except for
        > an occasional "Angmar" for the country he was
        > once king of), and "witch" is close enough of
        > a synonym to "magician". That's gotta be it.

        I found a text copy of the interview on indigo.ca
        (<http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/item.asp?Catalog=books&Item=978074757411>)
        and from that it is clear she is referring to The Mouth of Sauron.

        From the interview:

        The Raven King had an odd genesis. Ursula Le
        Guin has a magician in the Earthsea trilogy
        who has no name: the Grey Mage of Paln, whose
        magic was so dubious, his name was forgotten. And
        there’s a magician in The Lord of the Rings, right
        at the very end, who comes out of Mordor to do
        battle against our heroes, and no one knows his
        name because he himself has forgotten it.

        From The Return of the King:

        The rider was robed all in black, and black
        was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith
        but a living man. The Lieutenant of the Tower
        of Barad-Dûr he was, and his name is remembered
        in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it,
        and he said: "I am the Mouth of Sauron."

        --
        ===[Joshua Ellis]===============[S-D-G]===============[-0.809016994]===
        josh@... -+- http://www.apostate.com/ -+- LJ:deteriorata
        | The truth is rarely pure and never simple. Modern life would be |
        | very tedious if it were either, and modern literature a complete |
        | impossibility! -- Oscar Wilde |
        Currently Reading "The Colour Out of Space" edited by D. Thin
      • David Bratman
        ... OK about the name, because she doesn t say that he has no name, but that no-one knows it because he himself has forgotten it. That s quite different from
        Message 3 of 12 , Oct 1, 2004
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          At 01:53 PM 10/1/2004 -0500, Joshua Ellis wrote:

          >I found a text copy of the interview on indigo.ca
          >(<http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/item.asp?Catalog=books&Item=978074757411>)
          >and from that it is clear she is referring to The Mouth of Sauron.

          OK about the name, because she doesn't say that he has no name, but that
          no-one knows it because he himself has forgotten it. That's quite
          different from what Jack originally reported (doubtless simply misremembering).

          However, she's wrong in saying that he's "a magician ... who comes out of
          Mordor to do battle against our heroes." He represents himself as a herald
          and ambassador, and while his soldiers give the signal for attack, he does
          not fight himself. And though it is said that he knows "great sorcery,"
          he's never shown using it. Some magician.

          David Bratman
        • jack@greenmanreview.com
          ... Possibly. I was listening, not reading. But I d swear that was what she said. Anyone else lsien to it?
          Message 4 of 12 , Oct 1, 2004
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            > OK about the name, because she doesn't say that he has no name, but that
            > no-one knows it because he himself has forgotten it. That's quite
            > different from what Jack originally reported (doubtless simply
            > misremembering).

            Possibly. I was listening, not reading. But I'd swear that was what she
            said. Anyone else lsien to it?
          • Beth Russell
            Dear Joshua, Thank you for the transcript and text quotation. This pedant thinks she was a bit loose with her terminology! Having forgotten a name does not
            Message 5 of 12 , Oct 2, 2004
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              Dear Joshua,

              Thank you for the transcript and text quotation. This pedant thinks she
              was a bit loose with her terminology!

              Having forgotten a name does not mean that there is no name. On the
              contrary, it expressly says that there is a name. (If I forget my
              dentist appointment, that does not mean there was no appointment.) And
              in the context of LoTR, Sauron, being a Maia, would have known his name.

              Secondly, the Mouth of Sauron came as an emissary, not to do battle.

              Cheers,

              Beth

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Joshua Ellis [mailto:josh@...]
              Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 12:54 PM
              To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell author says...


              > She's thinking of the Witch King, the Lord of
              > the Nazgul. He's otherwise unnamed (except for
              > an occasional "Angmar" for the country he was
              > once king of), and "witch" is close enough of
              > a synonym to "magician". That's gotta be it.

              I found a text copy of the interview on indigo.ca
              (<http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/item.asp?Catalog=books&Item=978074757411
              >)
              and from that it is clear she is referring to The Mouth of Sauron.

              From the interview:

              The Raven King had an odd genesis. Ursula Le
              Guin has a magician in the Earthsea trilogy
              who has no name: the Grey Mage of Paln, whose
              magic was so dubious, his name was forgotten. And
              there’s a magician in The Lord of the Rings, right
              at the very end, who comes out of Mordor to do
              battle against our heroes, and no one knows his
              name because he himself has forgotten it.

              From The Return of the King:

              The rider was robed all in black, and black
              was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith
              but a living man. The Lieutenant of the Tower
              of Barad-Dûr he was, and his name is remembered
              in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it,
              and he said: "I am the Mouth of Sauron."

              --
              ===[Joshua Ellis]===============[S-D-G]===============[-0.809016994]===
              josh@... -+- http://www.apostate.com/ -+- LJ:deteriorata
              | The truth is rarely pure and never simple. Modern life would be |
              | very tedious if it were either, and modern literature a complete |
              | impossibility! -- Oscar Wilde |
              Currently Reading "The Colour Out of Space" edited by D. Thin




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