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Re: [mythsoc] Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell author says...

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  • jack@greenmanreview.com
    ... It s in an audio file on bloomsbury.com. She s discussing The RAven King, the unnamed Magician in her novel.
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 30, 2004
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      > Where did she say this, and in what context?

      It's in an audio file on bloomsbury.com. She's discussing The RAven King,
      the 'unnamed' Magician in her novel.
    • David Bratman
      ... Clearly she has a loose definition of unnamed , then, because The Raven King is a name, sort of, it s just not a proper name. More of a description,
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 30, 2004
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        At 08:26 PM 9/30/2004 -0400, Jack wrote:
        >It's in an audio file on bloomsbury.com. She's discussing The RAven King,
        >the 'unnamed' Magician in her novel.

        Clearly she has a loose definition of "unnamed", then, because "The Raven
        King" is a name, sort of, it's just not a proper name. More of a
        description, but then "Sauron" in origin was a description, and ...

        I've got it.

        She's thinking of the Witch King, the Lord of the Nazgul. He's otherwise
        unnamed (except for an occasional "Angmar" for the country he was once king
        of), and "witch" is close enough of a synonym to "magician". That's gotta
        be it.

        David Bratman
      • jack@greenmanreview.com
        * Clearly she has a loose definition of unnamed , then, because The Raven * King is a name, sort of, it s just not a proper name. More of a * description,
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 30, 2004
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          * Clearly she has a loose definition of "unnamed", then, because "The Raven
          * King" is a name, sort of, it's just not a proper name. More of a
          * description, but then "Sauron" in origin was a description, and ...
          *
          * I've got it.
          *
          * She's thinking of the Witch King, the Lord of the Nazgul. He's otherwise
          * unnamed (except for an occasional "Angmar" for the country he was once king
          * of), and "witch" is close enough of a synonym to "magician". That's gotta
          * be it.

          Thanks David. I finished the first several chapters -- it's entertaining
          in a breezy way.
        • Joshua Ellis
          ... I found a text copy of the interview on indigo.ca ( ) and from that it is clear she
          Message 4 of 12 , Oct 1, 2004
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            > She's thinking of the Witch King, the Lord of
            > the Nazgul. He's otherwise unnamed (except for
            > an occasional "Angmar" for the country he was
            > once king of), and "witch" is close enough of
            > a synonym to "magician". That's gotta be it.

            I found a text copy of the interview on indigo.ca
            (<http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/item.asp?Catalog=books&Item=978074757411>)
            and from that it is clear she is referring to The Mouth of Sauron.

            From the interview:

            The Raven King had an odd genesis. Ursula Le
            Guin has a magician in the Earthsea trilogy
            who has no name: the Grey Mage of Paln, whose
            magic was so dubious, his name was forgotten. And
            there’s a magician in The Lord of the Rings, right
            at the very end, who comes out of Mordor to do
            battle against our heroes, and no one knows his
            name because he himself has forgotten it.

            From The Return of the King:

            The rider was robed all in black, and black
            was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith
            but a living man. The Lieutenant of the Tower
            of Barad-Dûr he was, and his name is remembered
            in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it,
            and he said: "I am the Mouth of Sauron."

            --
            ===[Joshua Ellis]===============[S-D-G]===============[-0.809016994]===
            josh@... -+- http://www.apostate.com/ -+- LJ:deteriorata
            | The truth is rarely pure and never simple. Modern life would be |
            | very tedious if it were either, and modern literature a complete |
            | impossibility! -- Oscar Wilde |
            Currently Reading "The Colour Out of Space" edited by D. Thin
          • David Bratman
            ... OK about the name, because she doesn t say that he has no name, but that no-one knows it because he himself has forgotten it. That s quite different from
            Message 5 of 12 , Oct 1, 2004
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              At 01:53 PM 10/1/2004 -0500, Joshua Ellis wrote:

              >I found a text copy of the interview on indigo.ca
              >(<http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/item.asp?Catalog=books&Item=978074757411>)
              >and from that it is clear she is referring to The Mouth of Sauron.

              OK about the name, because she doesn't say that he has no name, but that
              no-one knows it because he himself has forgotten it. That's quite
              different from what Jack originally reported (doubtless simply misremembering).

              However, she's wrong in saying that he's "a magician ... who comes out of
              Mordor to do battle against our heroes." He represents himself as a herald
              and ambassador, and while his soldiers give the signal for attack, he does
              not fight himself. And though it is said that he knows "great sorcery,"
              he's never shown using it. Some magician.

              David Bratman
            • jack@greenmanreview.com
              ... Possibly. I was listening, not reading. But I d swear that was what she said. Anyone else lsien to it?
              Message 6 of 12 , Oct 1, 2004
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                > OK about the name, because she doesn't say that he has no name, but that
                > no-one knows it because he himself has forgotten it. That's quite
                > different from what Jack originally reported (doubtless simply
                > misremembering).

                Possibly. I was listening, not reading. But I'd swear that was what she
                said. Anyone else lsien to it?
              • Beth Russell
                Dear Joshua, Thank you for the transcript and text quotation. This pedant thinks she was a bit loose with her terminology! Having forgotten a name does not
                Message 7 of 12 , Oct 2, 2004
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                  Dear Joshua,

                  Thank you for the transcript and text quotation. This pedant thinks she
                  was a bit loose with her terminology!

                  Having forgotten a name does not mean that there is no name. On the
                  contrary, it expressly says that there is a name. (If I forget my
                  dentist appointment, that does not mean there was no appointment.) And
                  in the context of LoTR, Sauron, being a Maia, would have known his name.

                  Secondly, the Mouth of Sauron came as an emissary, not to do battle.

                  Cheers,

                  Beth

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Joshua Ellis [mailto:josh@...]
                  Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 12:54 PM
                  To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell author says...


                  > She's thinking of the Witch King, the Lord of
                  > the Nazgul. He's otherwise unnamed (except for
                  > an occasional "Angmar" for the country he was
                  > once king of), and "witch" is close enough of
                  > a synonym to "magician". That's gotta be it.

                  I found a text copy of the interview on indigo.ca
                  (<http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/item.asp?Catalog=books&Item=978074757411
                  >)
                  and from that it is clear she is referring to The Mouth of Sauron.

                  From the interview:

                  The Raven King had an odd genesis. Ursula Le
                  Guin has a magician in the Earthsea trilogy
                  who has no name: the Grey Mage of Paln, whose
                  magic was so dubious, his name was forgotten. And
                  there’s a magician in The Lord of the Rings, right
                  at the very end, who comes out of Mordor to do
                  battle against our heroes, and no one knows his
                  name because he himself has forgotten it.

                  From The Return of the King:

                  The rider was robed all in black, and black
                  was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith
                  but a living man. The Lieutenant of the Tower
                  of Barad-Dûr he was, and his name is remembered
                  in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it,
                  and he said: "I am the Mouth of Sauron."

                  --
                  ===[Joshua Ellis]===============[S-D-G]===============[-0.809016994]===
                  josh@... -+- http://www.apostate.com/ -+- LJ:deteriorata
                  | The truth is rarely pure and never simple. Modern life would be |
                  | very tedious if it were either, and modern literature a complete |
                  | impossibility! -- Oscar Wilde |
                  Currently Reading "The Colour Out of Space" edited by D. Thin




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