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RE: [mythsoc] Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell author says...

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  • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
    Is it possible they could mean in The Hobbit, where things are still a bit fuzzy and it s the Necromancer? OR do they definitely mean in LOTR? Elizabeth
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 30, 2004
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      Is it possible they could mean in The Hobbit, where things are still a bit
      fuzzy and it's the Necromancer? OR do they definitely mean in LOTR?



      Elizabeth Apgar Triano
      lizziewriter@...
      amor vincit omnia
      *** Do visit www.groups.yahoo.com/group/DollsandArts ***


      > [Original Message]
      > From: <jack@...>
      > To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
      > Date: 9/30/2004 3:24:55 PM
      > Subject: [mythsoc] Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell author says...
      >
      > that Tolkien in LoTR has a magician with no name. Which character is that?
      >
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      > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
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    • jack@greenmanreview.com
      ... It s in an audio file on bloomsbury.com. She s discussing The RAven King, the unnamed Magician in her novel.
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 30, 2004
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        > Where did she say this, and in what context?

        It's in an audio file on bloomsbury.com. She's discussing The RAven King,
        the 'unnamed' Magician in her novel.
      • David Bratman
        ... Clearly she has a loose definition of unnamed , then, because The Raven King is a name, sort of, it s just not a proper name. More of a description,
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 30, 2004
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          At 08:26 PM 9/30/2004 -0400, Jack wrote:
          >It's in an audio file on bloomsbury.com. She's discussing The RAven King,
          >the 'unnamed' Magician in her novel.

          Clearly she has a loose definition of "unnamed", then, because "The Raven
          King" is a name, sort of, it's just not a proper name. More of a
          description, but then "Sauron" in origin was a description, and ...

          I've got it.

          She's thinking of the Witch King, the Lord of the Nazgul. He's otherwise
          unnamed (except for an occasional "Angmar" for the country he was once king
          of), and "witch" is close enough of a synonym to "magician". That's gotta
          be it.

          David Bratman
        • jack@greenmanreview.com
          * Clearly she has a loose definition of unnamed , then, because The Raven * King is a name, sort of, it s just not a proper name. More of a * description,
          Message 4 of 12 , Sep 30, 2004
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            * Clearly she has a loose definition of "unnamed", then, because "The Raven
            * King" is a name, sort of, it's just not a proper name. More of a
            * description, but then "Sauron" in origin was a description, and ...
            *
            * I've got it.
            *
            * She's thinking of the Witch King, the Lord of the Nazgul. He's otherwise
            * unnamed (except for an occasional "Angmar" for the country he was once king
            * of), and "witch" is close enough of a synonym to "magician". That's gotta
            * be it.

            Thanks David. I finished the first several chapters -- it's entertaining
            in a breezy way.
          • Joshua Ellis
            ... I found a text copy of the interview on indigo.ca ( ) and from that it is clear she
            Message 5 of 12 , Oct 1, 2004
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              > She's thinking of the Witch King, the Lord of
              > the Nazgul. He's otherwise unnamed (except for
              > an occasional "Angmar" for the country he was
              > once king of), and "witch" is close enough of
              > a synonym to "magician". That's gotta be it.

              I found a text copy of the interview on indigo.ca
              (<http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/item.asp?Catalog=books&Item=978074757411>)
              and from that it is clear she is referring to The Mouth of Sauron.

              From the interview:

              The Raven King had an odd genesis. Ursula Le
              Guin has a magician in the Earthsea trilogy
              who has no name: the Grey Mage of Paln, whose
              magic was so dubious, his name was forgotten. And
              there’s a magician in The Lord of the Rings, right
              at the very end, who comes out of Mordor to do
              battle against our heroes, and no one knows his
              name because he himself has forgotten it.

              From The Return of the King:

              The rider was robed all in black, and black
              was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith
              but a living man. The Lieutenant of the Tower
              of Barad-Dûr he was, and his name is remembered
              in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it,
              and he said: "I am the Mouth of Sauron."

              --
              ===[Joshua Ellis]===============[S-D-G]===============[-0.809016994]===
              josh@... -+- http://www.apostate.com/ -+- LJ:deteriorata
              | The truth is rarely pure and never simple. Modern life would be |
              | very tedious if it were either, and modern literature a complete |
              | impossibility! -- Oscar Wilde |
              Currently Reading "The Colour Out of Space" edited by D. Thin
            • David Bratman
              ... OK about the name, because she doesn t say that he has no name, but that no-one knows it because he himself has forgotten it. That s quite different from
              Message 6 of 12 , Oct 1, 2004
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                At 01:53 PM 10/1/2004 -0500, Joshua Ellis wrote:

                >I found a text copy of the interview on indigo.ca
                >(<http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/item.asp?Catalog=books&Item=978074757411>)
                >and from that it is clear she is referring to The Mouth of Sauron.

                OK about the name, because she doesn't say that he has no name, but that
                no-one knows it because he himself has forgotten it. That's quite
                different from what Jack originally reported (doubtless simply misremembering).

                However, she's wrong in saying that he's "a magician ... who comes out of
                Mordor to do battle against our heroes." He represents himself as a herald
                and ambassador, and while his soldiers give the signal for attack, he does
                not fight himself. And though it is said that he knows "great sorcery,"
                he's never shown using it. Some magician.

                David Bratman
              • jack@greenmanreview.com
                ... Possibly. I was listening, not reading. But I d swear that was what she said. Anyone else lsien to it?
                Message 7 of 12 , Oct 1, 2004
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                  > OK about the name, because she doesn't say that he has no name, but that
                  > no-one knows it because he himself has forgotten it. That's quite
                  > different from what Jack originally reported (doubtless simply
                  > misremembering).

                  Possibly. I was listening, not reading. But I'd swear that was what she
                  said. Anyone else lsien to it?
                • Beth Russell
                  Dear Joshua, Thank you for the transcript and text quotation. This pedant thinks she was a bit loose with her terminology! Having forgotten a name does not
                  Message 8 of 12 , Oct 2, 2004
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                    Dear Joshua,

                    Thank you for the transcript and text quotation. This pedant thinks she
                    was a bit loose with her terminology!

                    Having forgotten a name does not mean that there is no name. On the
                    contrary, it expressly says that there is a name. (If I forget my
                    dentist appointment, that does not mean there was no appointment.) And
                    in the context of LoTR, Sauron, being a Maia, would have known his name.

                    Secondly, the Mouth of Sauron came as an emissary, not to do battle.

                    Cheers,

                    Beth

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Joshua Ellis [mailto:josh@...]
                    Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 12:54 PM
                    To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell author says...


                    > She's thinking of the Witch King, the Lord of
                    > the Nazgul. He's otherwise unnamed (except for
                    > an occasional "Angmar" for the country he was
                    > once king of), and "witch" is close enough of
                    > a synonym to "magician". That's gotta be it.

                    I found a text copy of the interview on indigo.ca
                    (<http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/item.asp?Catalog=books&Item=978074757411
                    >)
                    and from that it is clear she is referring to The Mouth of Sauron.

                    From the interview:

                    The Raven King had an odd genesis. Ursula Le
                    Guin has a magician in the Earthsea trilogy
                    who has no name: the Grey Mage of Paln, whose
                    magic was so dubious, his name was forgotten. And
                    there’s a magician in The Lord of the Rings, right
                    at the very end, who comes out of Mordor to do
                    battle against our heroes, and no one knows his
                    name because he himself has forgotten it.

                    From The Return of the King:

                    The rider was robed all in black, and black
                    was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith
                    but a living man. The Lieutenant of the Tower
                    of Barad-Dûr he was, and his name is remembered
                    in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it,
                    and he said: "I am the Mouth of Sauron."

                    --
                    ===[Joshua Ellis]===============[S-D-G]===============[-0.809016994]===
                    josh@... -+- http://www.apostate.com/ -+- LJ:deteriorata
                    | The truth is rarely pure and never simple. Modern life would be |
                    | very tedious if it were either, and modern literature a complete |
                    | impossibility! -- Oscar Wilde |
                    Currently Reading "The Colour Out of Space" edited by D. Thin




                    The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
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