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RE: [mythsoc] Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell author says...

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  • Beth Russell
    ... From: jack@greenmanreview.com [mailto:jack@greenmanreview.com] Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 1:25 PM To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com Subject: [mythsoc]
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 30, 2004
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      -----Original Message-----
      From: jack@... [mailto:jack@...]
      Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 1:25 PM
      To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [mythsoc] Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell author says...

      that Tolkien in LoTR has a magician with no name. Which character is
      that?


      Is it magician or wizard? If it is wizard the following is relevant:

      When Gandalf confronts Saruman amid the ruins of Isengard, Saurman
      mentions "the rods of the Five Wizards". The names of three, Saruman,
      Gandalf, and Radagast, are given in LoTR, but two are unnamed. Their
      names, Alatar and Pallando, are given in "Unfinished Tales": the chapter
      on The Istari.

      If it is magician, then I want to know the answer too!

      Cheers,

      Beth
    • David Bratman
      ... Where did she say this, and in what context? I rather doubt that the Blue Magicians are meant. They have names, and more importantly they re not
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 30, 2004
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        At 03:24 PM 9/30/2004 -0400, Jack wrote:
        >that Tolkien in LoTR has a magician with no name. Which character is that?

        Where did she say this, and in what context?

        I rather doubt that the Blue Magicians are meant. They have names, and
        more importantly they're not characters in LOTR.

        So far as I know the only person called a "magician" in LOTR is Frodo, by
        the Breelanders after that unfortunate incident with the table. He's not
        using his real name, so ...

        Possibly Sauron is meant. Though Aragorn refers to "Sauron" as "his right
        name," in fact it is not: it's an abusive cognomen applied by his enemies,
        and so is every other name we have for him, as far as I recall offhand.
        One of these is "The Necromancer", but whether that's sufficiently
        synonymous with "magician" is a subjective judgment. What his original
        name actually was, we don't know.

        David Bratman
      • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
        Is it possible they could mean in The Hobbit, where things are still a bit fuzzy and it s the Necromancer? OR do they definitely mean in LOTR? Elizabeth
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 30, 2004
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          Is it possible they could mean in The Hobbit, where things are still a bit
          fuzzy and it's the Necromancer? OR do they definitely mean in LOTR?



          Elizabeth Apgar Triano
          lizziewriter@...
          amor vincit omnia
          *** Do visit www.groups.yahoo.com/group/DollsandArts ***


          > [Original Message]
          > From: <jack@...>
          > To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
          > Date: 9/30/2004 3:24:55 PM
          > Subject: [mythsoc] Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell author says...
          >
          > that Tolkien in LoTR has a magician with no name. Which character is that?
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
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        • jack@greenmanreview.com
          ... It s in an audio file on bloomsbury.com. She s discussing The RAven King, the unnamed Magician in her novel.
          Message 4 of 12 , Sep 30, 2004
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            > Where did she say this, and in what context?

            It's in an audio file on bloomsbury.com. She's discussing The RAven King,
            the 'unnamed' Magician in her novel.
          • David Bratman
            ... Clearly she has a loose definition of unnamed , then, because The Raven King is a name, sort of, it s just not a proper name. More of a description,
            Message 5 of 12 , Sep 30, 2004
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              At 08:26 PM 9/30/2004 -0400, Jack wrote:
              >It's in an audio file on bloomsbury.com. She's discussing The RAven King,
              >the 'unnamed' Magician in her novel.

              Clearly she has a loose definition of "unnamed", then, because "The Raven
              King" is a name, sort of, it's just not a proper name. More of a
              description, but then "Sauron" in origin was a description, and ...

              I've got it.

              She's thinking of the Witch King, the Lord of the Nazgul. He's otherwise
              unnamed (except for an occasional "Angmar" for the country he was once king
              of), and "witch" is close enough of a synonym to "magician". That's gotta
              be it.

              David Bratman
            • jack@greenmanreview.com
              * Clearly she has a loose definition of unnamed , then, because The Raven * King is a name, sort of, it s just not a proper name. More of a * description,
              Message 6 of 12 , Sep 30, 2004
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                * Clearly she has a loose definition of "unnamed", then, because "The Raven
                * King" is a name, sort of, it's just not a proper name. More of a
                * description, but then "Sauron" in origin was a description, and ...
                *
                * I've got it.
                *
                * She's thinking of the Witch King, the Lord of the Nazgul. He's otherwise
                * unnamed (except for an occasional "Angmar" for the country he was once king
                * of), and "witch" is close enough of a synonym to "magician". That's gotta
                * be it.

                Thanks David. I finished the first several chapters -- it's entertaining
                in a breezy way.
              • Joshua Ellis
                ... I found a text copy of the interview on indigo.ca ( ) and from that it is clear she
                Message 7 of 12 , Oct 1, 2004
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                  > She's thinking of the Witch King, the Lord of
                  > the Nazgul. He's otherwise unnamed (except for
                  > an occasional "Angmar" for the country he was
                  > once king of), and "witch" is close enough of
                  > a synonym to "magician". That's gotta be it.

                  I found a text copy of the interview on indigo.ca
                  (<http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/item.asp?Catalog=books&Item=978074757411>)
                  and from that it is clear she is referring to The Mouth of Sauron.

                  From the interview:

                  The Raven King had an odd genesis. Ursula Le
                  Guin has a magician in the Earthsea trilogy
                  who has no name: the Grey Mage of Paln, whose
                  magic was so dubious, his name was forgotten. And
                  there’s a magician in The Lord of the Rings, right
                  at the very end, who comes out of Mordor to do
                  battle against our heroes, and no one knows his
                  name because he himself has forgotten it.

                  From The Return of the King:

                  The rider was robed all in black, and black
                  was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith
                  but a living man. The Lieutenant of the Tower
                  of Barad-Dûr he was, and his name is remembered
                  in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it,
                  and he said: "I am the Mouth of Sauron."

                  --
                  ===[Joshua Ellis]===============[S-D-G]===============[-0.809016994]===
                  josh@... -+- http://www.apostate.com/ -+- LJ:deteriorata
                  | The truth is rarely pure and never simple. Modern life would be |
                  | very tedious if it were either, and modern literature a complete |
                  | impossibility! -- Oscar Wilde |
                  Currently Reading "The Colour Out of Space" edited by D. Thin
                • David Bratman
                  ... OK about the name, because she doesn t say that he has no name, but that no-one knows it because he himself has forgotten it. That s quite different from
                  Message 8 of 12 , Oct 1, 2004
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                    At 01:53 PM 10/1/2004 -0500, Joshua Ellis wrote:

                    >I found a text copy of the interview on indigo.ca
                    >(<http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/item.asp?Catalog=books&Item=978074757411>)
                    >and from that it is clear she is referring to The Mouth of Sauron.

                    OK about the name, because she doesn't say that he has no name, but that
                    no-one knows it because he himself has forgotten it. That's quite
                    different from what Jack originally reported (doubtless simply misremembering).

                    However, she's wrong in saying that he's "a magician ... who comes out of
                    Mordor to do battle against our heroes." He represents himself as a herald
                    and ambassador, and while his soldiers give the signal for attack, he does
                    not fight himself. And though it is said that he knows "great sorcery,"
                    he's never shown using it. Some magician.

                    David Bratman
                  • jack@greenmanreview.com
                    ... Possibly. I was listening, not reading. But I d swear that was what she said. Anyone else lsien to it?
                    Message 9 of 12 , Oct 1, 2004
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                      > OK about the name, because she doesn't say that he has no name, but that
                      > no-one knows it because he himself has forgotten it. That's quite
                      > different from what Jack originally reported (doubtless simply
                      > misremembering).

                      Possibly. I was listening, not reading. But I'd swear that was what she
                      said. Anyone else lsien to it?
                    • Beth Russell
                      Dear Joshua, Thank you for the transcript and text quotation. This pedant thinks she was a bit loose with her terminology! Having forgotten a name does not
                      Message 10 of 12 , Oct 2, 2004
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                        Dear Joshua,

                        Thank you for the transcript and text quotation. This pedant thinks she
                        was a bit loose with her terminology!

                        Having forgotten a name does not mean that there is no name. On the
                        contrary, it expressly says that there is a name. (If I forget my
                        dentist appointment, that does not mean there was no appointment.) And
                        in the context of LoTR, Sauron, being a Maia, would have known his name.

                        Secondly, the Mouth of Sauron came as an emissary, not to do battle.

                        Cheers,

                        Beth

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Joshua Ellis [mailto:josh@...]
                        Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 12:54 PM
                        To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell author says...


                        > She's thinking of the Witch King, the Lord of
                        > the Nazgul. He's otherwise unnamed (except for
                        > an occasional "Angmar" for the country he was
                        > once king of), and "witch" is close enough of
                        > a synonym to "magician". That's gotta be it.

                        I found a text copy of the interview on indigo.ca
                        (<http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/item.asp?Catalog=books&Item=978074757411
                        >)
                        and from that it is clear she is referring to The Mouth of Sauron.

                        From the interview:

                        The Raven King had an odd genesis. Ursula Le
                        Guin has a magician in the Earthsea trilogy
                        who has no name: the Grey Mage of Paln, whose
                        magic was so dubious, his name was forgotten. And
                        there’s a magician in The Lord of the Rings, right
                        at the very end, who comes out of Mordor to do
                        battle against our heroes, and no one knows his
                        name because he himself has forgotten it.

                        From The Return of the King:

                        The rider was robed all in black, and black
                        was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith
                        but a living man. The Lieutenant of the Tower
                        of Barad-Dûr he was, and his name is remembered
                        in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it,
                        and he said: "I am the Mouth of Sauron."

                        --
                        ===[Joshua Ellis]===============[S-D-G]===============[-0.809016994]===
                        josh@... -+- http://www.apostate.com/ -+- LJ:deteriorata
                        | The truth is rarely pure and never simple. Modern life would be |
                        | very tedious if it were either, and modern literature a complete |
                        | impossibility! -- Oscar Wilde |
                        Currently Reading "The Colour Out of Space" edited by D. Thin




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