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Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell author says...

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  • jack@greenmanreview.com
    that Tolkien in LoTR has a magician with no name. Which character is that?
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 30, 2004
      that Tolkien in LoTR has a magician with no name. Which character is that?
    • Beth Russell
      ... From: jack@greenmanreview.com [mailto:jack@greenmanreview.com] Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 1:25 PM To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com Subject: [mythsoc]
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 30, 2004
        -----Original Message-----
        From: jack@... [mailto:jack@...]
        Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 1:25 PM
        To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [mythsoc] Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell author says...

        that Tolkien in LoTR has a magician with no name. Which character is
        that?


        Is it magician or wizard? If it is wizard the following is relevant:

        When Gandalf confronts Saruman amid the ruins of Isengard, Saurman
        mentions "the rods of the Five Wizards". The names of three, Saruman,
        Gandalf, and Radagast, are given in LoTR, but two are unnamed. Their
        names, Alatar and Pallando, are given in "Unfinished Tales": the chapter
        on The Istari.

        If it is magician, then I want to know the answer too!

        Cheers,

        Beth
      • David Bratman
        ... Where did she say this, and in what context? I rather doubt that the Blue Magicians are meant. They have names, and more importantly they re not
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 30, 2004
          At 03:24 PM 9/30/2004 -0400, Jack wrote:
          >that Tolkien in LoTR has a magician with no name. Which character is that?

          Where did she say this, and in what context?

          I rather doubt that the Blue Magicians are meant. They have names, and
          more importantly they're not characters in LOTR.

          So far as I know the only person called a "magician" in LOTR is Frodo, by
          the Breelanders after that unfortunate incident with the table. He's not
          using his real name, so ...

          Possibly Sauron is meant. Though Aragorn refers to "Sauron" as "his right
          name," in fact it is not: it's an abusive cognomen applied by his enemies,
          and so is every other name we have for him, as far as I recall offhand.
          One of these is "The Necromancer", but whether that's sufficiently
          synonymous with "magician" is a subjective judgment. What his original
          name actually was, we don't know.

          David Bratman
        • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
          Is it possible they could mean in The Hobbit, where things are still a bit fuzzy and it s the Necromancer? OR do they definitely mean in LOTR? Elizabeth
          Message 4 of 12 , Sep 30, 2004
            Is it possible they could mean in The Hobbit, where things are still a bit
            fuzzy and it's the Necromancer? OR do they definitely mean in LOTR?



            Elizabeth Apgar Triano
            lizziewriter@...
            amor vincit omnia
            *** Do visit www.groups.yahoo.com/group/DollsandArts ***


            > [Original Message]
            > From: <jack@...>
            > To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
            > Date: 9/30/2004 3:24:55 PM
            > Subject: [mythsoc] Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell author says...
            >
            > that Tolkien in LoTR has a magician with no name. Which character is that?
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
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          • jack@greenmanreview.com
            ... It s in an audio file on bloomsbury.com. She s discussing The RAven King, the unnamed Magician in her novel.
            Message 5 of 12 , Sep 30, 2004
              > Where did she say this, and in what context?

              It's in an audio file on bloomsbury.com. She's discussing The RAven King,
              the 'unnamed' Magician in her novel.
            • David Bratman
              ... Clearly she has a loose definition of unnamed , then, because The Raven King is a name, sort of, it s just not a proper name. More of a description,
              Message 6 of 12 , Sep 30, 2004
                At 08:26 PM 9/30/2004 -0400, Jack wrote:
                >It's in an audio file on bloomsbury.com. She's discussing The RAven King,
                >the 'unnamed' Magician in her novel.

                Clearly she has a loose definition of "unnamed", then, because "The Raven
                King" is a name, sort of, it's just not a proper name. More of a
                description, but then "Sauron" in origin was a description, and ...

                I've got it.

                She's thinking of the Witch King, the Lord of the Nazgul. He's otherwise
                unnamed (except for an occasional "Angmar" for the country he was once king
                of), and "witch" is close enough of a synonym to "magician". That's gotta
                be it.

                David Bratman
              • jack@greenmanreview.com
                * Clearly she has a loose definition of unnamed , then, because The Raven * King is a name, sort of, it s just not a proper name. More of a * description,
                Message 7 of 12 , Sep 30, 2004
                  * Clearly she has a loose definition of "unnamed", then, because "The Raven
                  * King" is a name, sort of, it's just not a proper name. More of a
                  * description, but then "Sauron" in origin was a description, and ...
                  *
                  * I've got it.
                  *
                  * She's thinking of the Witch King, the Lord of the Nazgul. He's otherwise
                  * unnamed (except for an occasional "Angmar" for the country he was once king
                  * of), and "witch" is close enough of a synonym to "magician". That's gotta
                  * be it.

                  Thanks David. I finished the first several chapters -- it's entertaining
                  in a breezy way.
                • Joshua Ellis
                  ... I found a text copy of the interview on indigo.ca ( ) and from that it is clear she
                  Message 8 of 12 , Oct 1, 2004
                    > She's thinking of the Witch King, the Lord of
                    > the Nazgul. He's otherwise unnamed (except for
                    > an occasional "Angmar" for the country he was
                    > once king of), and "witch" is close enough of
                    > a synonym to "magician". That's gotta be it.

                    I found a text copy of the interview on indigo.ca
                    (<http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/item.asp?Catalog=books&Item=978074757411>)
                    and from that it is clear she is referring to The Mouth of Sauron.

                    From the interview:

                    The Raven King had an odd genesis. Ursula Le
                    Guin has a magician in the Earthsea trilogy
                    who has no name: the Grey Mage of Paln, whose
                    magic was so dubious, his name was forgotten. And
                    there’s a magician in The Lord of the Rings, right
                    at the very end, who comes out of Mordor to do
                    battle against our heroes, and no one knows his
                    name because he himself has forgotten it.

                    From The Return of the King:

                    The rider was robed all in black, and black
                    was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith
                    but a living man. The Lieutenant of the Tower
                    of Barad-Dûr he was, and his name is remembered
                    in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it,
                    and he said: "I am the Mouth of Sauron."

                    --
                    ===[Joshua Ellis]===============[S-D-G]===============[-0.809016994]===
                    josh@... -+- http://www.apostate.com/ -+- LJ:deteriorata
                    | The truth is rarely pure and never simple. Modern life would be |
                    | very tedious if it were either, and modern literature a complete |
                    | impossibility! -- Oscar Wilde |
                    Currently Reading "The Colour Out of Space" edited by D. Thin
                  • David Bratman
                    ... OK about the name, because she doesn t say that he has no name, but that no-one knows it because he himself has forgotten it. That s quite different from
                    Message 9 of 12 , Oct 1, 2004
                      At 01:53 PM 10/1/2004 -0500, Joshua Ellis wrote:

                      >I found a text copy of the interview on indigo.ca
                      >(<http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/item.asp?Catalog=books&Item=978074757411>)
                      >and from that it is clear she is referring to The Mouth of Sauron.

                      OK about the name, because she doesn't say that he has no name, but that
                      no-one knows it because he himself has forgotten it. That's quite
                      different from what Jack originally reported (doubtless simply misremembering).

                      However, she's wrong in saying that he's "a magician ... who comes out of
                      Mordor to do battle against our heroes." He represents himself as a herald
                      and ambassador, and while his soldiers give the signal for attack, he does
                      not fight himself. And though it is said that he knows "great sorcery,"
                      he's never shown using it. Some magician.

                      David Bratman
                    • jack@greenmanreview.com
                      ... Possibly. I was listening, not reading. But I d swear that was what she said. Anyone else lsien to it?
                      Message 10 of 12 , Oct 1, 2004
                        > OK about the name, because she doesn't say that he has no name, but that
                        > no-one knows it because he himself has forgotten it. That's quite
                        > different from what Jack originally reported (doubtless simply
                        > misremembering).

                        Possibly. I was listening, not reading. But I'd swear that was what she
                        said. Anyone else lsien to it?
                      • Beth Russell
                        Dear Joshua, Thank you for the transcript and text quotation. This pedant thinks she was a bit loose with her terminology! Having forgotten a name does not
                        Message 11 of 12 , Oct 2, 2004
                          Dear Joshua,

                          Thank you for the transcript and text quotation. This pedant thinks she
                          was a bit loose with her terminology!

                          Having forgotten a name does not mean that there is no name. On the
                          contrary, it expressly says that there is a name. (If I forget my
                          dentist appointment, that does not mean there was no appointment.) And
                          in the context of LoTR, Sauron, being a Maia, would have known his name.

                          Secondly, the Mouth of Sauron came as an emissary, not to do battle.

                          Cheers,

                          Beth

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Joshua Ellis [mailto:josh@...]
                          Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 12:54 PM
                          To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell author says...


                          > She's thinking of the Witch King, the Lord of
                          > the Nazgul. He's otherwise unnamed (except for
                          > an occasional "Angmar" for the country he was
                          > once king of), and "witch" is close enough of
                          > a synonym to "magician". That's gotta be it.

                          I found a text copy of the interview on indigo.ca
                          (<http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/item.asp?Catalog=books&Item=978074757411
                          >)
                          and from that it is clear she is referring to The Mouth of Sauron.

                          From the interview:

                          The Raven King had an odd genesis. Ursula Le
                          Guin has a magician in the Earthsea trilogy
                          who has no name: the Grey Mage of Paln, whose
                          magic was so dubious, his name was forgotten. And
                          there’s a magician in The Lord of the Rings, right
                          at the very end, who comes out of Mordor to do
                          battle against our heroes, and no one knows his
                          name because he himself has forgotten it.

                          From The Return of the King:

                          The rider was robed all in black, and black
                          was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith
                          but a living man. The Lieutenant of the Tower
                          of Barad-Dûr he was, and his name is remembered
                          in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it,
                          and he said: "I am the Mouth of Sauron."

                          --
                          ===[Joshua Ellis]===============[S-D-G]===============[-0.809016994]===
                          josh@... -+- http://www.apostate.com/ -+- LJ:deteriorata
                          | The truth is rarely pure and never simple. Modern life would be |
                          | very tedious if it were either, and modern literature a complete |
                          | impossibility! -- Oscar Wilde |
                          Currently Reading "The Colour Out of Space" edited by D. Thin




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