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Win Tolkien Studies, Translating Tolkien, Dragons of Fantasy

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  • herenistarion
    The NY Tolkien Society 4th Anniversary Random Draw: http://www.herenistarion.org/contests.html Honoring Professor Tolkien, Bilbo, Frodo and Heren Istarion 4th
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 30, 2004
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      The NY Tolkien Society' 4th Anniversary Random Draw:
      http://www.herenistarion.org/contests.html

      Honoring Professor Tolkien, Bilbo, Frodo and Heren Istarion 4th
      birthday this month (September), we are offering 3 recent
      contributions to the world of Tolkien academia in a random draw.
      Send us your name, address, email and you will be entered to win 1
      of these three titles. This is how it works:
      All entries must be received by no later than 12am November 1st 2004
      All entries must send their name, address and email to: Heren
      Istarion Contests
      Heren Istarion Members are automatically entered twice---thats
      rights each members gets their names entered 2x's! Each name entered
      twice cannot win two prizes, it just means you have double the
      chance to win
      Non-Heren Istarion Members receive 1 chance at the draw unless they
      decide to become a Heren Istarion member
      Thats it! Send us the above required information and winners will be
      announced on November 2nd 2004--
      For prize info see URL below
      http://www.herenistarion.org/contests.html

      Best
      Anthony and Jessica
    • jack@greenmanreview.com
      that Tolkien in LoTR has a magician with no name. Which character is that?
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 30, 2004
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        that Tolkien in LoTR has a magician with no name. Which character is that?
      • Beth Russell
        ... From: jack@greenmanreview.com [mailto:jack@greenmanreview.com] Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 1:25 PM To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com Subject: [mythsoc]
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 30, 2004
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          -----Original Message-----
          From: jack@... [mailto:jack@...]
          Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 1:25 PM
          To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [mythsoc] Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell author says...

          that Tolkien in LoTR has a magician with no name. Which character is
          that?


          Is it magician or wizard? If it is wizard the following is relevant:

          When Gandalf confronts Saruman amid the ruins of Isengard, Saurman
          mentions "the rods of the Five Wizards". The names of three, Saruman,
          Gandalf, and Radagast, are given in LoTR, but two are unnamed. Their
          names, Alatar and Pallando, are given in "Unfinished Tales": the chapter
          on The Istari.

          If it is magician, then I want to know the answer too!

          Cheers,

          Beth
        • David Bratman
          ... Where did she say this, and in what context? I rather doubt that the Blue Magicians are meant. They have names, and more importantly they re not
          Message 4 of 12 , Sep 30, 2004
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            At 03:24 PM 9/30/2004 -0400, Jack wrote:
            >that Tolkien in LoTR has a magician with no name. Which character is that?

            Where did she say this, and in what context?

            I rather doubt that the Blue Magicians are meant. They have names, and
            more importantly they're not characters in LOTR.

            So far as I know the only person called a "magician" in LOTR is Frodo, by
            the Breelanders after that unfortunate incident with the table. He's not
            using his real name, so ...

            Possibly Sauron is meant. Though Aragorn refers to "Sauron" as "his right
            name," in fact it is not: it's an abusive cognomen applied by his enemies,
            and so is every other name we have for him, as far as I recall offhand.
            One of these is "The Necromancer", but whether that's sufficiently
            synonymous with "magician" is a subjective judgment. What his original
            name actually was, we don't know.

            David Bratman
          • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
            Is it possible they could mean in The Hobbit, where things are still a bit fuzzy and it s the Necromancer? OR do they definitely mean in LOTR? Elizabeth
            Message 5 of 12 , Sep 30, 2004
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              Is it possible they could mean in The Hobbit, where things are still a bit
              fuzzy and it's the Necromancer? OR do they definitely mean in LOTR?



              Elizabeth Apgar Triano
              lizziewriter@...
              amor vincit omnia
              *** Do visit www.groups.yahoo.com/group/DollsandArts ***


              > [Original Message]
              > From: <jack@...>
              > To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
              > Date: 9/30/2004 3:24:55 PM
              > Subject: [mythsoc] Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell author says...
              >
              > that Tolkien in LoTR has a magician with no name. Which character is that?
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • jack@greenmanreview.com
              ... It s in an audio file on bloomsbury.com. She s discussing The RAven King, the unnamed Magician in her novel.
              Message 6 of 12 , Sep 30, 2004
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                > Where did she say this, and in what context?

                It's in an audio file on bloomsbury.com. She's discussing The RAven King,
                the 'unnamed' Magician in her novel.
              • David Bratman
                ... Clearly she has a loose definition of unnamed , then, because The Raven King is a name, sort of, it s just not a proper name. More of a description,
                Message 7 of 12 , Sep 30, 2004
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                  At 08:26 PM 9/30/2004 -0400, Jack wrote:
                  >It's in an audio file on bloomsbury.com. She's discussing The RAven King,
                  >the 'unnamed' Magician in her novel.

                  Clearly she has a loose definition of "unnamed", then, because "The Raven
                  King" is a name, sort of, it's just not a proper name. More of a
                  description, but then "Sauron" in origin was a description, and ...

                  I've got it.

                  She's thinking of the Witch King, the Lord of the Nazgul. He's otherwise
                  unnamed (except for an occasional "Angmar" for the country he was once king
                  of), and "witch" is close enough of a synonym to "magician". That's gotta
                  be it.

                  David Bratman
                • jack@greenmanreview.com
                  * Clearly she has a loose definition of unnamed , then, because The Raven * King is a name, sort of, it s just not a proper name. More of a * description,
                  Message 8 of 12 , Sep 30, 2004
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                    * Clearly she has a loose definition of "unnamed", then, because "The Raven
                    * King" is a name, sort of, it's just not a proper name. More of a
                    * description, but then "Sauron" in origin was a description, and ...
                    *
                    * I've got it.
                    *
                    * She's thinking of the Witch King, the Lord of the Nazgul. He's otherwise
                    * unnamed (except for an occasional "Angmar" for the country he was once king
                    * of), and "witch" is close enough of a synonym to "magician". That's gotta
                    * be it.

                    Thanks David. I finished the first several chapters -- it's entertaining
                    in a breezy way.
                  • Joshua Ellis
                    ... I found a text copy of the interview on indigo.ca ( ) and from that it is clear she
                    Message 9 of 12 , Oct 1, 2004
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                      > She's thinking of the Witch King, the Lord of
                      > the Nazgul. He's otherwise unnamed (except for
                      > an occasional "Angmar" for the country he was
                      > once king of), and "witch" is close enough of
                      > a synonym to "magician". That's gotta be it.

                      I found a text copy of the interview on indigo.ca
                      (<http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/item.asp?Catalog=books&Item=978074757411>)
                      and from that it is clear she is referring to The Mouth of Sauron.

                      From the interview:

                      The Raven King had an odd genesis. Ursula Le
                      Guin has a magician in the Earthsea trilogy
                      who has no name: the Grey Mage of Paln, whose
                      magic was so dubious, his name was forgotten. And
                      there’s a magician in The Lord of the Rings, right
                      at the very end, who comes out of Mordor to do
                      battle against our heroes, and no one knows his
                      name because he himself has forgotten it.

                      From The Return of the King:

                      The rider was robed all in black, and black
                      was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith
                      but a living man. The Lieutenant of the Tower
                      of Barad-Dûr he was, and his name is remembered
                      in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it,
                      and he said: "I am the Mouth of Sauron."

                      --
                      ===[Joshua Ellis]===============[S-D-G]===============[-0.809016994]===
                      josh@... -+- http://www.apostate.com/ -+- LJ:deteriorata
                      | The truth is rarely pure and never simple. Modern life would be |
                      | very tedious if it were either, and modern literature a complete |
                      | impossibility! -- Oscar Wilde |
                      Currently Reading "The Colour Out of Space" edited by D. Thin
                    • David Bratman
                      ... OK about the name, because she doesn t say that he has no name, but that no-one knows it because he himself has forgotten it. That s quite different from
                      Message 10 of 12 , Oct 1, 2004
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                        At 01:53 PM 10/1/2004 -0500, Joshua Ellis wrote:

                        >I found a text copy of the interview on indigo.ca
                        >(<http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/item.asp?Catalog=books&Item=978074757411>)
                        >and from that it is clear she is referring to The Mouth of Sauron.

                        OK about the name, because she doesn't say that he has no name, but that
                        no-one knows it because he himself has forgotten it. That's quite
                        different from what Jack originally reported (doubtless simply misremembering).

                        However, she's wrong in saying that he's "a magician ... who comes out of
                        Mordor to do battle against our heroes." He represents himself as a herald
                        and ambassador, and while his soldiers give the signal for attack, he does
                        not fight himself. And though it is said that he knows "great sorcery,"
                        he's never shown using it. Some magician.

                        David Bratman
                      • jack@greenmanreview.com
                        ... Possibly. I was listening, not reading. But I d swear that was what she said. Anyone else lsien to it?
                        Message 11 of 12 , Oct 1, 2004
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                          > OK about the name, because she doesn't say that he has no name, but that
                          > no-one knows it because he himself has forgotten it. That's quite
                          > different from what Jack originally reported (doubtless simply
                          > misremembering).

                          Possibly. I was listening, not reading. But I'd swear that was what she
                          said. Anyone else lsien to it?
                        • Beth Russell
                          Dear Joshua, Thank you for the transcript and text quotation. This pedant thinks she was a bit loose with her terminology! Having forgotten a name does not
                          Message 12 of 12 , Oct 2, 2004
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                            Dear Joshua,

                            Thank you for the transcript and text quotation. This pedant thinks she
                            was a bit loose with her terminology!

                            Having forgotten a name does not mean that there is no name. On the
                            contrary, it expressly says that there is a name. (If I forget my
                            dentist appointment, that does not mean there was no appointment.) And
                            in the context of LoTR, Sauron, being a Maia, would have known his name.

                            Secondly, the Mouth of Sauron came as an emissary, not to do battle.

                            Cheers,

                            Beth

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Joshua Ellis [mailto:josh@...]
                            Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 12:54 PM
                            To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell author says...


                            > She's thinking of the Witch King, the Lord of
                            > the Nazgul. He's otherwise unnamed (except for
                            > an occasional "Angmar" for the country he was
                            > once king of), and "witch" is close enough of
                            > a synonym to "magician". That's gotta be it.

                            I found a text copy of the interview on indigo.ca
                            (<http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/item.asp?Catalog=books&Item=978074757411
                            >)
                            and from that it is clear she is referring to The Mouth of Sauron.

                            From the interview:

                            The Raven King had an odd genesis. Ursula Le
                            Guin has a magician in the Earthsea trilogy
                            who has no name: the Grey Mage of Paln, whose
                            magic was so dubious, his name was forgotten. And
                            there’s a magician in The Lord of the Rings, right
                            at the very end, who comes out of Mordor to do
                            battle against our heroes, and no one knows his
                            name because he himself has forgotten it.

                            From The Return of the King:

                            The rider was robed all in black, and black
                            was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith
                            but a living man. The Lieutenant of the Tower
                            of Barad-Dûr he was, and his name is remembered
                            in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it,
                            and he said: "I am the Mouth of Sauron."

                            --
                            ===[Joshua Ellis]===============[S-D-G]===============[-0.809016994]===
                            josh@... -+- http://www.apostate.com/ -+- LJ:deteriorata
                            | The truth is rarely pure and never simple. Modern life would be |
                            | very tedious if it were either, and modern literature a complete |
                            | impossibility! -- Oscar Wilde |
                            Currently Reading "The Colour Out of Space" edited by D. Thin




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