Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [mythsoc] Stardust by Neil Gaiman

Expand Messages
  • Matthew Winslow
    ... Um, my apologies if this came across a bit agressive. I ve been battling a troll on another list I m on and I guess I was still a bit punchy when I wrote
    Message 1 of 22 , Aug 3 11:54 AM
    • 0 Attachment
      Matthew Winslow [mwinslow-sf@...] wrote:
      > While not Gaiman's best work, I've always enjoyed reading it. I don't find it
      > flat or uninspiring at all. It's what it purports to be: a fairy tale. To
      > expect more I think diminishes the value of the work.

      Um, my apologies if this came across a bit agressive. I've been battling a
      troll on another list I'm on and I guess I was still a bit punchy when I wrote
      the above.

      --
      Matthew Winslow mwinslow@... http://x-real.firinn.org/
      "There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale
      returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment in fact."
      --Mark Twain
      Currently reading: Deadhouse Gates by Steven Erikson
    • Berni Phillips
      From: Fisher, Matt ... committee), my recollection is that I found several of the titles just as weak (in different
      Message 2 of 22 , Aug 3 7:57 PM
      • 0 Attachment
        From: "Fisher, Matt" <matt.fisher@...>


        > Joan,
        >
        > > I read Stardust while I was in San Diego. I understand that this title
        > > won a Mythopoeic Fantasy award. What I don't understand is
        > > how it won a
        > > Mythopoeic Fantasy Award. I found the novel flat, uninspiring, and not
        > > particularly well written.
        > >
        > > Were the other nominees that year really that bad?
        >
        > Looking over the list of finalists from that year (I was on the
        committee), my recollection is that I found several of the titles just as
        weak (in different ways)...particularly the Klein and Stoddard.

        Sometimes the award winner is a compromise book. I wasn't on the committe
        that year, but I recall discussing the stuff at the time and while _The High
        House_ may have been mythopoeic, some people didn't find it a very good
        book.

        The former awards administrator told me that someone once actually nominated
        a book for the award with the stirring recommendation of, "It's not very
        good but it's very mythopoeic." This was quite some time before 1999 so it
        was not any of the nominees that year.

        I liked _Stardust_ quite a lot the first time I read it. I re-read it
        recently (since I was re-reading Gaiman's stuff for Mythcon) and had the
        reaction you did this time, Joan. I did not enjoy it anywhere near as much.

        Berni
      • Deidre
        ... Neil and Charles collaborated on this graphic novel, if that s one wishes to call it. The pictures and the story just go together perfectly IMHO. I can t
        Message 3 of 22 , Aug 3 10:01 PM
        • 0 Attachment
          At 01:13 PM 8/3/04 -0500, Joan wrote:
          >Matthew Winslow wrote:
          >
          > > Joan, did you read the print-only version or the 'graphic novel'? The Vess
          > > illustrations really bring the story to life.
          >
          >This was the "print-only" version.

          Neil and Charles collaborated on this graphic novel, if that's one wishes
          to call it. The pictures and the story just go together perfectly IMHO. I
          can't imagine the story without those pictures. Please try it again in the
          "illustrated" version. I would like to hope that you would think better of it.

          Btw, Vess is one of my favorite artists and Gaiman is one of my favorite
          writers, so I have always thought that their work together is magical.
          Mythopoeic, *shrugs* I don't know, but their work, together and separately,
          does resonate with me.

          Deidre
        • dianejoy@earthlink.net
          I was on the committee, and gave *High House* a high vote. I don t recall where I placed Gaiman. I remember I liked it, marginally, but liked at least three
          Message 4 of 22 , Aug 4 9:41 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            I was on the committee, and gave *High House* a high vote. I don't recall
            where I placed Gaiman. I remember I liked it, marginally, but liked at
            least three others better: Stoddard, McKillip (one of her good ones) and
            the Kline. I think I liked the Kline better than McKillip and Stoddard
            best of all. (But I may be remembering things wrong.) ---djb

            Original Message:
            -----------------
            From: Jack jack@...
            Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 13:01:35 -0400
            To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Stardust by Neil Gaiman


            >I read Stardust while I was in San Diego. I understand that this title
            >won a Mythopoeic Fantasy award. What I don't understand is how it won a
            >Mythopoeic Fantasy Award. I found the novel flat, uninspiring, and not
            >particularly well written.
            >
            >Were the other nominees that year really that bad?

            Actually each was better than Stardust with The High House the most
            mythopoec.

            1999
            (Adult)
            * *Stardust by Neil Gaiman and Charles Vess
            * Someplace to be Flying by Charles de Lint
            * The History of our World Beyond the Wave by R.E. Klein
            * Song for the Basilisk by Patricia A. McKillip
            * The High House by James Stoddard

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
            Yahoo! Groups Links






            --------------------------------------------------------------------
            mail2web - Check your email from the web at
            http://mail2web.com/ .
          • Jack
            ... The two Evenmere novels, The High House and The False House, were released in limited editions a few years.
            Message 5 of 22 , Aug 4 9:44 AM
            • 0 Attachment
              >I was on the committee, and gave *High House* a high vote. I don't recall
              >where I placed Gaiman. I remember I liked it, marginally, but liked at
              >least three others better: Stoddard, McKillip (one of her good ones) and
              >the Kline. I think I liked the Kline better than McKillip and Stoddard
              >best of all. (But I may be remembering things wrong.) ---djb

              The two Evenmere novels, The High House and The False House, were released
              in limited editions a few years.

              http://www.greenmanreview.com/book/book_stoddard_highhousesoulwave.html
            • dianejoy@earthlink.net
              ... From: Jack jack@greenmanreview.com Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 12:44:55 -0400 To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Stardust by Neil Gaiman ...
              Message 6 of 22 , Aug 4 9:49 AM
              • 0 Attachment
                Original Message:
                -----------------
                From: Jack jack@...
                Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 12:44:55 -0400
                To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Stardust by Neil Gaiman


                >I was on the committee, and gave *High House* a high vote. I don't recall
                >where I placed Gaiman. I remember I liked it, marginally, but liked at
                >least three others better: Stoddard, McKillip (one of her good ones) and
                >the Kline. I think I liked the Kline better than McKillip and Stoddard
                >best of all. (But I may be remembering things wrong.) ---djb

                >>The two Evenmere novels, The High House and The False House, were
                released
                >>in limited editions a few years.

                >>http://www.greenmanreview.com/book/book_stoddard_highhousesoulwave.html

                Have them both. Thank you. ---djb


                The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                Yahoo! Groups Links






                --------------------------------------------------------------------
                mail2web - Check your email from the web at
                http://mail2web.com/ .
              • Jack
                ... Stoddard s very proud of the job the publisher did on them. He didn t make anything off these editions, but they flew him to Nashville (I believe) and he
                Message 7 of 22 , Aug 4 9:53 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  >>>The two Evenmere novels, The High House and The False House, were
                  >released
                  >>>in limited editions a few years.
                  >
                  >>>http://www.greenmanreview.com/book/book_stoddard_highhousesoulwave.html
                  >
                  >Have them both. Thank you. ---djb

                  Stoddard's very proud of the job the publisher did on them. He didn't make anything off these editions,
                  but they flew him to Nashville (I believe) and he had a great time discussing the design with the SoulWave
                  folks.
                • Stolzi
                  I remember being really p.o. ed about STARDUST because he threw in a sex scene I thought was gratuitous, and thinking that for a parent with young children,
                  Message 8 of 22 , Aug 4 11:58 AM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I remember being really p.o.'ed about STARDUST because he threw in a sex scene I thought was gratuitous, and thinking that for a parent with young children, this would otherwise have been a fun book to share with the kids but now it wasn't.

                    At the Mythcon he said he tried to write a pre-Tolkien fairytale in STARDUST, but I don't think he succeeded, as I remember the book, though it's been quite a while now, I think it could well be compared, not with the LOTR, but with Tolkien's shorter fairy tales and seem much like them.

                    Diamond Proudbrook.


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Jack
                    I remember being really p.o. ed about STARDUST because he threw in a sex scene I thought was gratuitous, and thinking that for a parent with young children,
                    Message 9 of 22 , Aug 4 12:30 PM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I remember being really p.o.'ed about STARDUST because he threw in a sex
                      scene I thought was gratuitous, and thinking that for a parent with young
                      children, this would otherwise have been a fun book to share with the kids
                      but now it wasn't.

                      Was Stardust wriiten as anything but an adult novel? I though the sex scene
                      made sense in terms of the plot as it had developed up to that point.

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Stolzi
                      Well, I think it s billed as a fairy tale for adults, but when has that stopped sharing a good book with one s children? How many of you here handed LORD OF
                      Message 10 of 22 , Aug 4 3:10 PM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Well, I think it's billed as a "fairy tale for adults," but when has that stopped sharing a good book with one's children? How many of you here handed LORD OF THE RINGS to the little darlings as soon as you thought they could absorb it? Or how many had children who found it for themselves? :)

                        Diamond Proudbrook
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Jack
                        To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 2:30 PM
                        Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Stardust by Neil Gaiman


                        I remember being really p.o.'ed about STARDUST because he threw in a sex
                        scene I thought was gratuitous, and thinking that for a parent with young
                        children, this would otherwise have been a fun book to share with the kids
                        but now it wasn't.

                        Was Stardust wriiten as anything but an adult novel?


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • dianejoy@earthlink.net
                        Er, I must make a correction; I have both *High* and *False* in regular MMPB editions, not the new ones you referred to, though I d sure like to take a look
                        Message 11 of 22 , Aug 5 8:00 AM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Er, I must make a correction; I have both *High* and *False* in regular
                          MMPB editions, not the new ones you referred to, though I'd sure like to
                          take a look at the illustrations.

                          I love illustrations best when they act as "jumping off points" for the
                          imagination of the reader; I love Ted Nasmith's work for another reason:
                          because it captures as close as humanly possible, the images *I already had
                          in mind* as I read JRRT's work. ---djb

                          Original Message:
                          -----------------
                          From: Jack jack@...
                          Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 12:53:12 -0400
                          To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Stardust by Neil Gaiman


                          >>>The two Evenmere novels, The High House and The False House, were
                          >released
                          >>>in limited editions a few years.
                          >
                          >>>http://www.greenmanreview.com/book/book_stoddard_highhousesoulwave.html
                          >
                          >Have them both. Thank you. ---djb

                          Stoddard's very proud of the job the publisher did on them. He didn't make
                          anything off these editions,
                          but they flew him to Nashville (I believe) and he had a great time
                          discussing the design with the SoulWave
                          folks.



                          The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                          Yahoo! Groups Links






                          --------------------------------------------------------------------
                          mail2web - Check your email from the web at
                          http://mail2web.com/ .
                        • dianejoy@earthlink.net
                          ... From: Stolzi Stolzi@comcast.net Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 13:58:10 -0500 To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Stardust by Neil Gaiman ... I
                          Message 12 of 22 , Aug 5 8:12 AM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Original Message:
                            -----------------
                            From: Stolzi Stolzi@...
                            Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 13:58:10 -0500
                            To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Stardust by Neil Gaiman


                            >I remember being really p.o.'ed about STARDUST because he threw in a sex
                            >scene I thought was gratuitous, and thinking that for a parent with young
                            >children, this would otherwise have been a fun book to share with the kids
                            >but now it wasn't.

                            I thought it inappropriate. Sometimes I wonder what audience Neil's trying
                            to hit. If it's a "Fairy Tale for Grownups" it should be so labeled,
                            either in a blurb or part of the title. The violence is often quite
                            reminiscent of normal fairy tales (before they got bowdlerized).

                            >At the Mythcon he said he tried to write a pre-Tolkien fairytale in
                            >STARDUST, but I don't think he succeeded, as I remember the book, though
                            >it's been quite a while now, I think it could well be compared, not with
                            >the LOTR, but with Tolkien's shorter fairy tales and seem much like them.

                            Good point. ---djb


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                            The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                            Yahoo! Groups Links






                            --------------------------------------------------------------------
                            mail2web - Check your email from the web at
                            http://mail2web.com/ .
                          • Joshua Kronengold
                            ... Me. More to the point, at this point, he s hitting the audince of people who like Neil Gaiman s work, along with anyone who s only been clued in recently.
                            Message 13 of 22 , Aug 5 4:04 PM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              dianejoy@... writes:
                              >I thought it inappropriate. Sometimes I wonder what audience Neil's trying
                              >to hit.

                              Me.

                              More to the point, at this point, he's hitting the audince of people
                              who like Neil Gaiman's work, along with anyone who's only been clued
                              in recently.

                              But even with Stardust, I don't think he's going for a child
                              audience--maybe with works like "The Day I Sold My Father For Two
                              Goldfish" or something.

                              --
                              Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org)) |\ _,,,--,,_ ,)
                              --^-- "Get your mind right and you can make a stick /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;'
                              /\\ your wand and the sky your hat and a puddle |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\
                              /-\\\ your magic..." -- Granny Weatherwax '---''(_/--' (_/-'
                            • dianejoy@earthlink.net
                              ... From: Joshua Kronengold mneme@io.com Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 18:04:39 -0500 To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Stardust by Neil Gaiman ... I
                              Message 14 of 22 , Aug 6 7:28 AM
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Original Message:
                                -----------------
                                From: Joshua Kronengold mneme@...
                                Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 18:04:39 -0500
                                To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Stardust by Neil Gaiman


                                dianejoy@... writes:
                                >I thought it inappropriate. Sometimes I wonder what audience Neil's trying
                                >to hit.

                                >Me.

                                >More to the point, at this point, he's hitting the audince of people
                                >who like Neil Gaiman's work, along with anyone who's only been clued
                                >in recently.

                                >But even with Stardust, I don't think he's going for a child
                                >audience--maybe with works like "The Day I Sold My Father For Two
                                >Goldfish" or something.

                                I need to re-read *Stardust* again. However, in terms of audience, I agree
                                that this is what NG's doing: he's found his target audience, which are
                                essentially "Neil Gaiman fans." I don't consider *Stardust* a child's
                                story, and that was my point.

                                I'm very fond of Gaiman's Sandman, and I also think that he's most powerful
                                when he's writing short stories. His novels are fine, but they don't have
                                that extra "punch," though they do make you think. ---djb

                                --
                                Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org)) |\ _,,,--,,_
                                ,)
                                --^-- "Get your mind right and you can make a stick /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;'

                                /\\ your wand and the sky your hat and a puddle |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\

                                /-\\\ your magic..." -- Granny Weatherwax '---''(_/--' (_/-'




                                The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                                Yahoo! Groups Links






                                --------------------------------------------------------------------
                                mail2web - Check your email from the web at
                                http://mail2web.com/ .
                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.