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Re: [mythsoc] Stardust by Neil Gaiman

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  • Stolzi
    I thought THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD BEYOND THE WAVE far the most mythopoeic, very Lewisian, though it had weak points. THE HIGH HOUSE was a wonderful concept
    Message 1 of 22 , Aug 3, 2004
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      I thought THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD BEYOND THE WAVE far the most mythopoeic, very Lewisian, though it had weak points. THE HIGH HOUSE was a wonderful concept but not well-written.

      Just mho -

      Diamond Proudbrook
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Jack


      Actually each was better than Stardust with The High House the most mythopoec.




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Joan Marie Verba
      ... I enjoy a well-written fairy tale. I own collections of fairy tales. I enjoy a lot of novels based on fairy tales. I didn t enjoy Stardust. ... This was
      Message 2 of 22 , Aug 3, 2004
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        Matthew Winslow wrote:
        >
        > While not Gaiman's best work, I've always enjoyed reading it. I don't find it
        > flat or uninspiring at all. It's what it purports to be: a fairy tale. To
        > expect more I think diminishes the value of the work.

        I enjoy a well-written fairy tale. I own collections of fairy tales. I
        enjoy a lot of novels based on fairy tales. I didn't enjoy Stardust.
        >
        > Joan, did you read the print-only version or the 'graphic novel'? The Vess
        > illustrations really bring the story to life.

        This was the "print-only" version.

        Joan
        ******************************************
        Joan Marie Verba
        verba001@...
        http://www.sff.net/people/Joan.Marie.Verba
      • Walkermonk@aol.com
        In a message dated 8/3/2004 12:55:18 PM Central Daylight Time, mwinslow-sf@firinn.org writes: While not Gaiman s best work, I ve always enjoyed reading it. I
        Message 3 of 22 , Aug 3, 2004
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          In a message dated 8/3/2004 12:55:18 PM Central Daylight Time,
          mwinslow-sf@... writes:
          While not Gaiman's best work, I've always enjoyed reading it. I don't find it
          flat or uninspiring at all. It's what it purports to be: a fairy tale. To
          expect more I think diminishes the value of the work.
          --

          I too found this book to be enjoyable. I had no expectations about what it
          should be when I started it, mostly because I didn't read it for any reason than
          curiosity. It isn't his best, true, but still fun for me.

          Grace Walker Monk


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Walkermonk@aol.com
          In a message dated 8/3/2004 1:03:02 PM Central Daylight Time, Stolzi@comcast.net writes: I thought THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD BEYOND THE WAVE far the most
          Message 4 of 22 , Aug 3, 2004
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            In a message dated 8/3/2004 1:03:02 PM Central Daylight Time,
            Stolzi@... writes:
            I thought THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD BEYOND THE WAVE far the most mythopoeic,
            very Lewisian, though it had weak points. THE HIGH HOUSE was a wonderful
            concept but not well-written.

            Just mho -

            Diamond Proudbrook
            ---

            Just to show how different books affect different people -- Mary, my dear
            friend, liked THE HISTORY. I really really didn't. I liked STARDUST. Others
            didn't. Regardless, isn't it nice that we can read them all and discuss them? :-)

            Grace Walker Monk


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Matthew Winslow
            ... Um, my apologies if this came across a bit agressive. I ve been battling a troll on another list I m on and I guess I was still a bit punchy when I wrote
            Message 5 of 22 , Aug 3, 2004
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              Matthew Winslow [mwinslow-sf@...] wrote:
              > While not Gaiman's best work, I've always enjoyed reading it. I don't find it
              > flat or uninspiring at all. It's what it purports to be: a fairy tale. To
              > expect more I think diminishes the value of the work.

              Um, my apologies if this came across a bit agressive. I've been battling a
              troll on another list I'm on and I guess I was still a bit punchy when I wrote
              the above.

              --
              Matthew Winslow mwinslow@... http://x-real.firinn.org/
              "There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale
              returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment in fact."
              --Mark Twain
              Currently reading: Deadhouse Gates by Steven Erikson
            • Berni Phillips
              From: Fisher, Matt ... committee), my recollection is that I found several of the titles just as weak (in different
              Message 6 of 22 , Aug 3, 2004
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                From: "Fisher, Matt" <matt.fisher@...>


                > Joan,
                >
                > > I read Stardust while I was in San Diego. I understand that this title
                > > won a Mythopoeic Fantasy award. What I don't understand is
                > > how it won a
                > > Mythopoeic Fantasy Award. I found the novel flat, uninspiring, and not
                > > particularly well written.
                > >
                > > Were the other nominees that year really that bad?
                >
                > Looking over the list of finalists from that year (I was on the
                committee), my recollection is that I found several of the titles just as
                weak (in different ways)...particularly the Klein and Stoddard.

                Sometimes the award winner is a compromise book. I wasn't on the committe
                that year, but I recall discussing the stuff at the time and while _The High
                House_ may have been mythopoeic, some people didn't find it a very good
                book.

                The former awards administrator told me that someone once actually nominated
                a book for the award with the stirring recommendation of, "It's not very
                good but it's very mythopoeic." This was quite some time before 1999 so it
                was not any of the nominees that year.

                I liked _Stardust_ quite a lot the first time I read it. I re-read it
                recently (since I was re-reading Gaiman's stuff for Mythcon) and had the
                reaction you did this time, Joan. I did not enjoy it anywhere near as much.

                Berni
              • Deidre
                ... Neil and Charles collaborated on this graphic novel, if that s one wishes to call it. The pictures and the story just go together perfectly IMHO. I can t
                Message 7 of 22 , Aug 3, 2004
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                  At 01:13 PM 8/3/04 -0500, Joan wrote:
                  >Matthew Winslow wrote:
                  >
                  > > Joan, did you read the print-only version or the 'graphic novel'? The Vess
                  > > illustrations really bring the story to life.
                  >
                  >This was the "print-only" version.

                  Neil and Charles collaborated on this graphic novel, if that's one wishes
                  to call it. The pictures and the story just go together perfectly IMHO. I
                  can't imagine the story without those pictures. Please try it again in the
                  "illustrated" version. I would like to hope that you would think better of it.

                  Btw, Vess is one of my favorite artists and Gaiman is one of my favorite
                  writers, so I have always thought that their work together is magical.
                  Mythopoeic, *shrugs* I don't know, but their work, together and separately,
                  does resonate with me.

                  Deidre
                • dianejoy@earthlink.net
                  I was on the committee, and gave *High House* a high vote. I don t recall where I placed Gaiman. I remember I liked it, marginally, but liked at least three
                  Message 8 of 22 , Aug 4, 2004
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                    I was on the committee, and gave *High House* a high vote. I don't recall
                    where I placed Gaiman. I remember I liked it, marginally, but liked at
                    least three others better: Stoddard, McKillip (one of her good ones) and
                    the Kline. I think I liked the Kline better than McKillip and Stoddard
                    best of all. (But I may be remembering things wrong.) ---djb

                    Original Message:
                    -----------------
                    From: Jack jack@...
                    Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 13:01:35 -0400
                    To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Stardust by Neil Gaiman


                    >I read Stardust while I was in San Diego. I understand that this title
                    >won a Mythopoeic Fantasy award. What I don't understand is how it won a
                    >Mythopoeic Fantasy Award. I found the novel flat, uninspiring, and not
                    >particularly well written.
                    >
                    >Were the other nominees that year really that bad?

                    Actually each was better than Stardust with The High House the most
                    mythopoec.

                    1999
                    (Adult)
                    * *Stardust by Neil Gaiman and Charles Vess
                    * Someplace to be Flying by Charles de Lint
                    * The History of our World Beyond the Wave by R.E. Klein
                    * Song for the Basilisk by Patricia A. McKillip
                    * The High House by James Stoddard

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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                  • Jack
                    ... The two Evenmere novels, The High House and The False House, were released in limited editions a few years.
                    Message 9 of 22 , Aug 4, 2004
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                      >I was on the committee, and gave *High House* a high vote. I don't recall
                      >where I placed Gaiman. I remember I liked it, marginally, but liked at
                      >least three others better: Stoddard, McKillip (one of her good ones) and
                      >the Kline. I think I liked the Kline better than McKillip and Stoddard
                      >best of all. (But I may be remembering things wrong.) ---djb

                      The two Evenmere novels, The High House and The False House, were released
                      in limited editions a few years.

                      http://www.greenmanreview.com/book/book_stoddard_highhousesoulwave.html
                    • dianejoy@earthlink.net
                      ... From: Jack jack@greenmanreview.com Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 12:44:55 -0400 To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Stardust by Neil Gaiman ...
                      Message 10 of 22 , Aug 4, 2004
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                        Original Message:
                        -----------------
                        From: Jack jack@...
                        Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 12:44:55 -0400
                        To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Stardust by Neil Gaiman


                        >I was on the committee, and gave *High House* a high vote. I don't recall
                        >where I placed Gaiman. I remember I liked it, marginally, but liked at
                        >least three others better: Stoddard, McKillip (one of her good ones) and
                        >the Kline. I think I liked the Kline better than McKillip and Stoddard
                        >best of all. (But I may be remembering things wrong.) ---djb

                        >>The two Evenmere novels, The High House and The False House, were
                        released
                        >>in limited editions a few years.

                        >>http://www.greenmanreview.com/book/book_stoddard_highhousesoulwave.html

                        Have them both. Thank you. ---djb


                        The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                        Yahoo! Groups Links






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                      • Jack
                        ... Stoddard s very proud of the job the publisher did on them. He didn t make anything off these editions, but they flew him to Nashville (I believe) and he
                        Message 11 of 22 , Aug 4, 2004
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                          >>>The two Evenmere novels, The High House and The False House, were
                          >released
                          >>>in limited editions a few years.
                          >
                          >>>http://www.greenmanreview.com/book/book_stoddard_highhousesoulwave.html
                          >
                          >Have them both. Thank you. ---djb

                          Stoddard's very proud of the job the publisher did on them. He didn't make anything off these editions,
                          but they flew him to Nashville (I believe) and he had a great time discussing the design with the SoulWave
                          folks.
                        • Stolzi
                          I remember being really p.o. ed about STARDUST because he threw in a sex scene I thought was gratuitous, and thinking that for a parent with young children,
                          Message 12 of 22 , Aug 4, 2004
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                            I remember being really p.o.'ed about STARDUST because he threw in a sex scene I thought was gratuitous, and thinking that for a parent with young children, this would otherwise have been a fun book to share with the kids but now it wasn't.

                            At the Mythcon he said he tried to write a pre-Tolkien fairytale in STARDUST, but I don't think he succeeded, as I remember the book, though it's been quite a while now, I think it could well be compared, not with the LOTR, but with Tolkien's shorter fairy tales and seem much like them.

                            Diamond Proudbrook.


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Jack
                            I remember being really p.o. ed about STARDUST because he threw in a sex scene I thought was gratuitous, and thinking that for a parent with young children,
                            Message 13 of 22 , Aug 4, 2004
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                              I remember being really p.o.'ed about STARDUST because he threw in a sex
                              scene I thought was gratuitous, and thinking that for a parent with young
                              children, this would otherwise have been a fun book to share with the kids
                              but now it wasn't.

                              Was Stardust wriiten as anything but an adult novel? I though the sex scene
                              made sense in terms of the plot as it had developed up to that point.

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Stolzi
                              Well, I think it s billed as a fairy tale for adults, but when has that stopped sharing a good book with one s children? How many of you here handed LORD OF
                              Message 14 of 22 , Aug 4, 2004
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                                Well, I think it's billed as a "fairy tale for adults," but when has that stopped sharing a good book with one's children? How many of you here handed LORD OF THE RINGS to the little darlings as soon as you thought they could absorb it? Or how many had children who found it for themselves? :)

                                Diamond Proudbrook
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Jack
                                To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 2:30 PM
                                Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Stardust by Neil Gaiman


                                I remember being really p.o.'ed about STARDUST because he threw in a sex
                                scene I thought was gratuitous, and thinking that for a parent with young
                                children, this would otherwise have been a fun book to share with the kids
                                but now it wasn't.

                                Was Stardust wriiten as anything but an adult novel?


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • dianejoy@earthlink.net
                                Er, I must make a correction; I have both *High* and *False* in regular MMPB editions, not the new ones you referred to, though I d sure like to take a look
                                Message 15 of 22 , Aug 5, 2004
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                                  Er, I must make a correction; I have both *High* and *False* in regular
                                  MMPB editions, not the new ones you referred to, though I'd sure like to
                                  take a look at the illustrations.

                                  I love illustrations best when they act as "jumping off points" for the
                                  imagination of the reader; I love Ted Nasmith's work for another reason:
                                  because it captures as close as humanly possible, the images *I already had
                                  in mind* as I read JRRT's work. ---djb

                                  Original Message:
                                  -----------------
                                  From: Jack jack@...
                                  Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 12:53:12 -0400
                                  To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Stardust by Neil Gaiman


                                  >>>The two Evenmere novels, The High House and The False House, were
                                  >released
                                  >>>in limited editions a few years.
                                  >
                                  >>>http://www.greenmanreview.com/book/book_stoddard_highhousesoulwave.html
                                  >
                                  >Have them both. Thank you. ---djb

                                  Stoddard's very proud of the job the publisher did on them. He didn't make
                                  anything off these editions,
                                  but they flew him to Nashville (I believe) and he had a great time
                                  discussing the design with the SoulWave
                                  folks.



                                  The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                                  Yahoo! Groups Links






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                                • dianejoy@earthlink.net
                                  ... From: Stolzi Stolzi@comcast.net Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 13:58:10 -0500 To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Stardust by Neil Gaiman ... I
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Aug 5, 2004
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                                    Original Message:
                                    -----------------
                                    From: Stolzi Stolzi@...
                                    Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 13:58:10 -0500
                                    To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Stardust by Neil Gaiman


                                    >I remember being really p.o.'ed about STARDUST because he threw in a sex
                                    >scene I thought was gratuitous, and thinking that for a parent with young
                                    >children, this would otherwise have been a fun book to share with the kids
                                    >but now it wasn't.

                                    I thought it inappropriate. Sometimes I wonder what audience Neil's trying
                                    to hit. If it's a "Fairy Tale for Grownups" it should be so labeled,
                                    either in a blurb or part of the title. The violence is often quite
                                    reminiscent of normal fairy tales (before they got bowdlerized).

                                    >At the Mythcon he said he tried to write a pre-Tolkien fairytale in
                                    >STARDUST, but I don't think he succeeded, as I remember the book, though
                                    >it's been quite a while now, I think it could well be compared, not with
                                    >the LOTR, but with Tolkien's shorter fairy tales and seem much like them.

                                    Good point. ---djb


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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                                  • Joshua Kronengold
                                    ... Me. More to the point, at this point, he s hitting the audince of people who like Neil Gaiman s work, along with anyone who s only been clued in recently.
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Aug 5, 2004
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                                      dianejoy@... writes:
                                      >I thought it inappropriate. Sometimes I wonder what audience Neil's trying
                                      >to hit.

                                      Me.

                                      More to the point, at this point, he's hitting the audince of people
                                      who like Neil Gaiman's work, along with anyone who's only been clued
                                      in recently.

                                      But even with Stardust, I don't think he's going for a child
                                      audience--maybe with works like "The Day I Sold My Father For Two
                                      Goldfish" or something.

                                      --
                                      Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org)) |\ _,,,--,,_ ,)
                                      --^-- "Get your mind right and you can make a stick /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;'
                                      /\\ your wand and the sky your hat and a puddle |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\
                                      /-\\\ your magic..." -- Granny Weatherwax '---''(_/--' (_/-'
                                    • dianejoy@earthlink.net
                                      ... From: Joshua Kronengold mneme@io.com Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 18:04:39 -0500 To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Stardust by Neil Gaiman ... I
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Aug 6, 2004
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                                        Original Message:
                                        -----------------
                                        From: Joshua Kronengold mneme@...
                                        Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 18:04:39 -0500
                                        To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Stardust by Neil Gaiman


                                        dianejoy@... writes:
                                        >I thought it inappropriate. Sometimes I wonder what audience Neil's trying
                                        >to hit.

                                        >Me.

                                        >More to the point, at this point, he's hitting the audince of people
                                        >who like Neil Gaiman's work, along with anyone who's only been clued
                                        >in recently.

                                        >But even with Stardust, I don't think he's going for a child
                                        >audience--maybe with works like "The Day I Sold My Father For Two
                                        >Goldfish" or something.

                                        I need to re-read *Stardust* again. However, in terms of audience, I agree
                                        that this is what NG's doing: he's found his target audience, which are
                                        essentially "Neil Gaiman fans." I don't consider *Stardust* a child's
                                        story, and that was my point.

                                        I'm very fond of Gaiman's Sandman, and I also think that he's most powerful
                                        when he's writing short stories. His novels are fine, but they don't have
                                        that extra "punch," though they do make you think. ---djb

                                        --
                                        Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org)) |\ _,,,--,,_
                                        ,)
                                        --^-- "Get your mind right and you can make a stick /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;'

                                        /\\ your wand and the sky your hat and a puddle |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\

                                        /-\\\ your magic..." -- Granny Weatherwax '---''(_/--' (_/-'




                                        The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                                        Yahoo! Groups Links






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