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Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien, Jonah, and Job

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  • Wayne G. Hammond
    ... [etc.] Sorry, Michael, I ve been too busy to reply to this question on r.a.b.t., though I ve had it on my to-do list. Since writing the _Bibliography_ I ve
    Message 1 of 20 , Jun 3 5:13 AM
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      Michael wrote:

      >A few weeks ago, a small brouhaha erupted over my statements in
      >various places about Tolkien having translated the Book of Job for the
      >Jerusalem Bible. Many people keep pointing out that he only claimed
      >to have finished Jonah (though without mentioning Job referring to
      >other unspecified texts he had been assigned) in Letter 294.

      [etc.]

      Sorry, Michael, I've been too busy to reply to this question on r.a.b.t.,
      though I've had it on my to-do list.

      Since writing the _Bibliography_ I've seen the letters written to Tolkien
      by the General Editor of _The Jerusalem Bible_, Alexander Jones, preserved
      in the Tolkien Papers at the Bodleian. Jones first wrote to Tolkien in
      January 1957, asking him to contribute to the Bible project, on the
      strength of _The Lord of the Rings_ with which Jones was very impressed. He
      hoped that Tolkien would translate several books of the Old Testament, but
      held out Jonah (only three pages in the finished printed Bible) if Tolkien
      was pressed for time. Tolkien quickly sent a sample translation from
      Isaiah, and then a draft translation of Jonah. After that he was indeed too
      pressed for time to do much more. He did, however, discuss points of
      translation with Jones, including what to do about archaisms (a potentially
      very interesting subject, especially in relation to his comments on
      archaisms in _The Lord of the Rings_; unfortunately, copies of Tolkien's
      letters to Jones are not at the Bodleian), and Jones solicited Tolkien's
      opinions on a first draft of most of the Book of Job. Tolkien passed a
      final revision of Jonah only in 1961.

      So, Tolkien did translate Jonah, which others revised (in the
      _Bibliography_, p. 279, "revision of the latter [i.e. Jonah]" should read
      "version of the latter"), and the evidence strongly indicates that this was
      the only book that he translated in full. He certainly did not translate
      Job -- one of the letters from Jones makes it clear that this was done by
      someone else -- though he may have given his advice about it (Jones's
      letters at the Bodleian end at the point at which he sent Job to Tolkien),
      and this may have led to some confusion on this point at Longmans.

      Jones wrote in his foreword to _The Jerusalem Bible_: "In the case of a few
      books the initial draft was made from the French and was then compared word
      for word with the Hebrew or Aramaic by the General Editor and amended where
      necessary to ensure complete conformity with the ancient text. For the much
      greater part, the initial drafts were made from the Hebrew or Greek and
      simultaneously compared with the French when questions of variant reading
      or interpretation arose." That the work was never simply a translation from
      the French was made clear to Tolkien by Jones in an early letter: reference
      by the General Editor to Hebrew and Greek was always a given. Nor was Jones
      overly concerned to recruit translators who were fluent in French:
      obviously they had to have some facility with it, but he was concerned in
      the first instance with their command of English. Thus he wanted Tolkien on
      board, and others such as Roy Campbell (who died before completing his work).

      I agree with Larry's argument about the level of Tolkien's knowledge of
      Hebrew, but can add that Tolkien wished to know more, and in April 1957 he
      wrote to his grandson Michael George (an unpublished letter) that he was
      immersing himself in the language so that, when he retired, he could
      participate in a Bible translation project, i.e. _The Jerusalem Bible_. But
      there is no evidence that he got very far with this study before other
      matters became too pressing.

      Wayne Hammond
    • Michael Martinez
      ... Thank you. While I cannot change anything which has appeared in prince, I ll post a followup to the newsgroups. Cover your ears, as the roar of
      Message 2 of 20 , Jun 3 12:08 PM
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        --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne G. Hammond"
        <Wayne.G.Hammond@w...> wrote:
        > Michael wrote:
        >
        > >A few weeks ago, a small brouhaha erupted over my statements in
        > >various places about Tolkien having translated the Book of Job
        > >for the Jerusalem Bible. Many people keep pointing out that he
        > >only claimed to have finished Jonah (though without mentioning Job
        > >referring to other unspecified texts he had been assigned) in
        > >Letter 294.
        >
        > [etc.]
        >
        > Sorry, Michael, I've been too busy to reply to this question on
        > r.a.b.t., though I've had it on my to-do list.

        Thank you. While I cannot change anything which has appeared in
        prince, I'll post a followup to the newsgroups.

        Cover your ears, as the roar of jubilation over a retraction from
        Michael Martinez -- in any form -- will undoubtedly be deafening for
        years to come.
      • Michael Martinez
        ... Even a finger-fumble would not explain how I managed to write prince for print , but I did have a good time dancing last night. David, thank you for the
        Message 3 of 20 , Jun 3 12:11 PM
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          --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Martinez" <Michaelm@x> wrote:

          > Thank you. While I cannot change anything which has appeared in
          > prince, I'll post a followup to the newsgroups.

          Even a finger-fumble would not explain how I managed to write "prince"
          for "print", but I did have a good time dancing last night.

          David, thank you for the suggestion. I will look into Kenny's book.
        • Larry Swain
          Wayne, Thanks very much for writing and taking time from toher things. ... Just for the sake of clarity, what we are talking about here is a translation from
          Message 4 of 20 , Jun 3 9:44 PM
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            Wayne,

            Thanks very much for writing and taking time from toher things.

            >
            > Since writing the _Bibliography_ I've seen the letters written to Tolkien
            > by the General Editor of _The Jerusalem Bible_, Alexander Jones, preserved
            > in the Tolkien Papers at the Bodleian. Jones first wrote to Tolkien in
            > January 1957, asking him to contribute to the Bible project, on the
            > strength of _The Lord of the Rings_ with which Jones was very impressed. He
            > hoped that Tolkien would translate several books of the Old Testament, but
            > held out Jonah (only three pages in the finished printed Bible) if Tolkien
            > was pressed for time. Tolkien quickly sent a sample translation from
            > Isaiah, and then a draft translation of Jonah. After that he was indeed too
            > pressed for time to do much more. He did, however, discuss points of
            > translation with Jones, including what to do about archaisms (a potentially
            > very interesting subject, especially in relation to his comments on
            > archaisms in _The Lord of the Rings_; unfortunately, copies of Tolkien's
            > letters to Jones are not at the Bodleian), and Jones solicited Tolkien's
            > opinions on a first draft of most of the Book of Job. Tolkien passed a
            > final revision of Jonah only in 1961.
            >

            Just for the sake of clarity, what we are talking about here is a translation from French, not a translation from Hebrew that Tolkien did for the portion of Isaiah and Jonah. That's the impression I devloped and have in my notes. I'll be in the Bodleian later this summer and can check again. Same thing with the draft...Jones was soliciting Tolkien's opinion on the English of the translation, not its accuracy from the original language. Please do correct me if your impression is different.


            > Jones wrote in his foreword to _The Jerusalem Bible_: "In the case of a few
            > books the initial draft was made from the French and was then compared word
            > for word with the Hebrew or Aramaic by the General Editor and amended where
            > necessary to ensure complete conformity with the ancient text. For the much
            > greater part, the initial drafts were made from the Hebrew or Greek and
            > simultaneously compared with the French when questions of variant reading
            > or interpretation arose." That the work was never simply a translation from
            > the French was made clear to Tolkien by Jones in an early letter: reference
            > by the General Editor to Hebrew and Greek was always a given.

            I can only imagine that this is in reaction to my statements that initially the project translated from French and later switched gears and translated from Hebrew and Greek with an eye on the French. In the end I don't see much difference. Some books in their initial drafts were translated from French as I said. That these initial drafts were then compared to the Hebrew and Greek has no bearing on whether Tolkien translated Jonah from Hebrew or not.


            Thanks again!

            Larry Swain
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          • Wayne G. Hammond
            ... This is my interpretation also. Wayne
            Message 5 of 20 , Jun 4 4:01 AM
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              Larry wrote:

              >Just for the sake of clarity, what we are talking about here
              >is a translation from French, not a translation from Hebrew
              >that Tolkien did for the portion of Isaiah and Jonah. That's
              >the impression I devloped and have in my notes. I'll be in the
              >Bodleian later this summer and can check again. Same thing
              >with the draft...Jones was soliciting Tolkien's opinion on the
              >English of the translation, not its accuracy from the original
              >language. Please do correct me if your impression is different.

              This is my interpretation also.

              Wayne
            • alexeik@aol.com
              In a message dated 6/3/4 12:14:08 PM, Wayne Hammond wrote:
              Message 6 of 20 , Jun 4 9:06 AM
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                In a message dated 6/3/4 12:14:08 PM, Wayne Hammond wrote:

                <<I agree with Larry's argument about the level of Tolkien's knowledge of
                Hebrew, but can add that Tolkien wished to know more, and in April 1957 he
                wrote to his grandson Michael George (an unpublished letter) that he was
                immersing himself in the language so that, when he retired, he could
                participate in a Bible translation project, i.e. _The Jerusalem Bible_. But
                there is no evidence that he got very far with this study before other
                matters became too pressing.
                >>

                I think there's also the evidence of Adûnaic, which seems specifically
                designed to incorporate elements characteristic of Semitic languages. Of course,
                this doesn't mean that Tolkien "knew Hebrew", but it does suggest that he had
                delved into it deeply enough to be generally aware of the unique non-European
                features of its grammar (and naturally used it as inspiration for his own
                linguistic subcreation).
                Alexei
              • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                Alexei said: I think there s also the evidence of Ad?naic, which seems specifically designed to incorporate elements characteristic of Semitic languages. Of
                Message 7 of 20 , Jun 4 2:16 PM
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                  Alexei said:

                  I think there's also the evidence of Ad?naic, which seems specifically
                  designed to incorporate elements characteristic of Semitic languages. Of
                  course,
                  this doesn't mean that Tolkien "knew Hebrew", but it does suggest that he
                  had
                  delved into it deeply enough to be generally aware of the unique
                  non-European
                  features of its grammar (and naturally used it as inspiration for his own
                  linguistic subcreation). >>

                  I'm sorry, but I have no idea what that A word is or what it means.
                  There's also the evidence of what?


                  Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                  lizziewriter@...
                  amor vincit omnia
                • Michael Martinez
                  ... The Tolkien linguists have identified Hebrew influence in Adunaic, Khuzdul, and Elvish (the latter being some comments by Helge Fauskanger). Carpenter
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jun 4 3:27 PM
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                    --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, alexeik@a... wrote:
                    >
                    > I think there's also the evidence of Adûnaic, which seems specifically
                    > designed to incorporate elements characteristic of Semitic languages.
                    > Of course, this doesn't mean that Tolkien "knew Hebrew", but it does
                    > suggest that he had delved into it deeply enough to be generally
                    > aware of the unique non-European features of its grammar (and
                    > naturally used it as inspiration for his own linguistic subcreation).
                    > Alexei

                    The Tolkien linguists have identified Hebrew influence in Adunaic,
                    Khuzdul, and Elvish (the latter being some comments by Helge
                    Fauskanger). Carpenter says one of Tolkien's early alphabets was
                    apparently modelled in part on Hebrew.

                    There are tons of references to Tolkien and Hebrew. It's impossible
                    to determine where everyone got their ideas/information from. Some
                    other authors besides me have identified him even more closely with
                    Hebrew and the Jerusalem Bible (there seems to be a virtual tidal wave
                    of religious Tolkien books these days -- too many for me to keep up with).
                  • Michael Martinez
                    ... Adunaic is the name of the language Tolkien devised for his Edainic peoples. It replaced an earlier language, Taliska, which had been devised for the
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jun 4 3:28 PM
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                      --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth Apgar Triano"
                      <lizziewriter@e...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I'm sorry, but I have no idea what that A word is or what it means.
                      > There's also the evidence of what?

                      Adunaic is the name of the language Tolkien devised for his Edainic
                      peoples. It replaced an earlier language, Taliska, which had been
                      devised for the so-called mythology for England (THE BOOK OF LOST
                      TALES) and was a pseudo-Germanic language.

                      Adunaic was incorporated into the LORD OF THE RINGS mythology. It is
                      mentioned in the Appendices.
                    • Bianca Iano
                      ... It s been a while since I looked at Helge s website, but IIRC, he identifies some common features like plural forms ending in im , and triconsonantal
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jun 5 7:46 PM
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                        Michael Martinez wrote:

                        > The Tolkien linguists have identified Hebrew influence in Adunaic,
                        > Khuzdul, and Elvish (the latter being some comments by Helge
                        > Fauskanger). Carpenter says one of Tolkien's early alphabets was
                        > apparently modelled in part on Hebrew.

                        It's been a while since I looked at Helge's website, but IIRC, he
                        identifies some common features like plural forms ending in "im",
                        and triconsonantal roots in Adunaic, etc. I'm no philologist,
                        but the borrowings didn't seem to me to be based on any systematic
                        desire to create a thoroughly Semitic language. Specialists could
                        probably tell you more.

                        Nor to my ear do phrases like "Ephalak idon Yozayan" sound like
                        any Semitic language spoken in this universe :).

                        With all due respect, I find it hard to believe JRRT planned to work
                        up his Hebrew during retirement so he could translate the book of Job (?)
                        from the original. Unless by translating one means being able to check
                        words in a dictionary using an already existing translation as an aid
                        and polishing up the English?

                        Not meaning to tread on any toes here ...

                        Bianca
                      • Larry Swain
                        ... Hi Alexei, I ll start by saying that I am somewhat less than expert on Tolkien s languages, to be honest. I ll respond to the things I ve seen about
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jun 6 10:29 AM
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                          > In a message dated 6/3/4 12:14:08 PM, Wayne Hammond wrote:
                          >
                          Hi Alexei,

                          I'll start by saying that I am somewhat less than expert on Tolkien's languages, to be honest. I'll respond to the things I've seen about Adunaic and its dependence on Hebrew, though.

                          One thing I've seen is that plurals in adunaic are in -im which is a Hebrew plural. That's true....one of the plurals, the masculine, in Hebrew is -im. But other languages have that as well, and it is not hard to go from a -"ium" ending in Latin third declension i-stem genitive plurals to sometimes an -im by medieval Latin writers. If there were other plurals in Adunaic that were in -oth or -ot, then I think a good case of modeling on Hebrew could be made, but not on -im alone.

                          I've also read that in changing to the plural Adunaic changes the vowels of the stem, like Hebrew. But again other languages do this, notably Old Norse where depending on the case and number the stem vowels change. So its possible, but again not enough on this alone.

                          I've also read that Adunaic has triconsonantal primitive roots like Hebrew...but this is true of all Semitic languages and if true is probably more demonstrative of a basic knowledge of certain things about Hebrew/Semitic languages than anyone with linguistics training would know than knowing the language.

                          Is there more? This is suggestive, but far from conclusive.

                          I think Michael mentioned the early alphabet that Carpenter mentions that was based on Hebrew. I wonder about this too, and have a theory that at the moment is baseless. I suspect though that Tolkien was probably thinking about the well known fact that the NW Semitic alphabet delevoped from Ugaritic gave rise to the Phoenician and Hebrew alphabets. The latter of course became the language of the Bible. The former passed its alphabet onto the Greeks and through them to the Romans and then to the rest of Europe. I suspect that he was playing around with the origins of the alphabet and trying to develop a different one from the "roots" so to speak, rather than modeling it directly on Hebrew. Of course this is just a guess since I've not seen the original (and might just need to go and see if I can find it), but given Tolkien's early interests in these sorts of things and what is known about his mind, I suspect that this is more likely than an imitation of a known language.

                          Just some thoughts.

                          Larry Swain

                          found> I think there's also the evidence of Adûnaic, which seems specifically
                          > designed to incorporate elements characteristic of Semitic languages. Of course,
                          > this doesn't mean that Tolkien "knew Hebrew", but it does suggest that he had
                          > delved into it deeply enough to be generally aware of the unique non-European
                          > features of its grammar (and naturally used it as inspiration for his own
                          > linguistic subcreation).
                          > Alexei
                          >
                          --
                          _____________________________________________________________
                          Web-based SMS services available at http://www.operamail.com
                          From your mailbox to local or overseas cell phones.

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                        • alexeik@aol.com
                          In a message dated 6/6/4 3:39:16 AM, Bianca wrote:
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jun 11 1:45 PM
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                            In a message dated 6/6/4 3:39:16 AM, Bianca wrote:

                            <<I'm no philologist,
                            but the borrowings didn't seem to me to be based on any systematic
                            desire to create a thoroughly Semitic language. Specialists could
                            probably tell you more.

                            Nor to my ear do phrases like "Ephalak idon Yozayan" sound like
                            any Semitic language spoken in this universe :).>>

                            That's strange, because to mine it does. It doesn't closely reflect any
                            particular Semitic language, but it does suggest to me the kind of aesthetic effect
                            Semitic languages in general could have on an outsider for whom they
                            represent something alien and exotic. All of the sounds in the quoted phrase can be
                            found in Semitic languages in comparable combinations, and the shapes of the
                            words reflect elements that are common features of Semitic (eg, the _-ak_ ending
                            of 2sg. possessives; the _-an_ ending of many Arabic plurals and Hebrew
                            extended verbs, etc.) -- even the orthographic use of _ph_ reflects the use of _ph_
                            in transliterations of Hebrew and Aramaic where it points up the origin of
                            that sound as a lenited _p_. The sound _z_ (common in Semitic) tends to be used
                            by Tolkien as a sign of alienness, being characteristic of Adûnaic, Khuzdul and
                            the Black Speech but absent from most recorded forms of Eldarin languages
                            (except for very early Quenya, where it primarily serves to illustrate the
                            phenomenon of rhotacism). The point is that Tolkien's linguistic subcreations are
                            rarely close imitations of primary-world languages, but more usually
                            elaborations of aesthetic reactions to certain of their features, so one shouldn't expect
                            Adûnaic to be a "thoroughly Semitic language", even though it does indeed
                            reflect both phonetic and structural aspects of Semitic. It's commonplace to
                            point out that Quenya and Sindarin respectively resemble Finnish and Welsh; and
                            yet Quenya is obviously not "a thoroughly Finno-Ugric language", any more than
                            Sindarin is "a thoroughly Celtic language". Their sound-systems reflect certain
                            characteristic features of Finnish and Welsh that Tolkien particularly liked,
                            but leave out others that were judged less attractive (Quenya lacks the
                            "umlauted" vowels of Finnish; Sindarin omits the ubiquitous short-_y_ "schwa" vowel
                            of Welsh, etc.). On the structural level the subcreated languages share
                            certain salient features with their primary-world models (eg, a great variety of
                            case-suffixes in Quenya/Finnish; initial consonant mutation in Sindarin/Welsh,
                            etc.), but by and large don't reproduce the primary-world languages' grammars
                            closely at all. I see the relation of Adûnaic to Semitic languages as being of
                            exactly the same degree: Tolkien incorporated aspects of Semitic phonetics
                            that he found particularly suggestive or striking aesthetically (while ignoring
                            others), and singled out one aspect of Semitic grammar (vowel variation within
                            triconsonantal roots -- a far more complex and sophisticated phenomenon than
                            Ablaut in Germanic languages) as particularly interesting and distinctive and
                            worthy of being experimented with in a subcreated language. This last choice
                            would indeed have necessitated his being exposed to the conjugation of a Hebrew
                            (or Arabic) verb. I don't see that this would have been beyond his reach, or
                            that it would have required devoting a great deal of time to intensive study of
                            Hebrew.
                            Alexei
                          • Carl F. Hostetter
                            ... Also in Tolkien s later concept of Valarin, also with, I feel the same intended effect of alienness, both to the Indo-European and the Eldarin ear. For
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jun 11 5:44 PM
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                              On Jun 11, 2004, at 4:45 PM, alexeik@... wrote:

                              > The sound _z_ (common in Semitic) tends to be used
                              > by Tolkien as a sign of alienness, being characteristic of Adûnaic,
                              > Khuzdul and
                              > the Black Speech

                              Also in Tolkien's later concept of Valarin, also with, I feel the same
                              intended effect of alienness, both to the Indo-European and the Eldarin
                              ear.

                              For what it's worth, I have yet to encounter any evidence, published or
                              unpublished, that Tolkien had made any special study of Hebrew or any
                              Semitic language, beyond that that any philologist and comparative
                              linguist of his age would naturally encounter.
                            • dianejoy@earthlink.net
                              Pardon my linguistic ignorance, but what is an extended verb? Thanks in advance. ---djb ... From: alexeik@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 16:45:58 EDT To:
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jun 14 6:56 AM
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                                Pardon my linguistic ignorance, but what is an "extended verb?" Thanks in
                                advance. ---djb

                                Original Message:
                                -----------------
                                From: alexeik@...
                                Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 16:45:58 EDT
                                To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Tolkien, Jonah, and Job



                                In a message dated 6/6/4 3:39:16 AM, Bianca wrote:

                                <<I'm no philologist,
                                but the borrowings didn't seem to me to be based on any systematic
                                desire to create a thoroughly Semitic language. Specialists could
                                probably tell you more.

                                Nor to my ear do phrases like "Ephalak idon Yozayan" sound like
                                any Semitic language spoken in this universe :).>>

                                That's strange, because to mine it does. It doesn't closely reflect any
                                particular Semitic language, but it does suggest to me the kind of
                                aesthetic effect
                                Semitic languages in general could have on an outsider for whom they
                                represent something alien and exotic. All of the sounds in the quoted
                                phrase can be
                                found in Semitic languages in comparable combinations, and the shapes of
                                the
                                words reflect elements that are common features of Semitic (eg, the _-ak_
                                ending
                                of 2sg. possessives; the _-an_ ending of many Arabic plurals and Hebrew
                                extended verbs, etc.) -- even the orthographic use of _ph_ reflects the use
                                of _ph_
                                in transliterations of Hebrew and Aramaic where it points up the origin of
                                that sound as a lenited _p_. The sound _z_ (common in Semitic) tends to be
                                used
                                by Tolkien as a sign of alienness, being characteristic of Adûnaic, Khuzdul
                                and
                                the Black Speech but absent from most recorded forms of Eldarin languages
                                (except for very early Quenya, where it primarily serves to illustrate the
                                phenomenon of rhotacism). The point is that Tolkien's linguistic
                                subcreations are
                                rarely close imitations of primary-world languages, but more usually
                                elaborations of aesthetic reactions to certain of their features, so one
                                shouldn't expect
                                Adûnaic to be a "thoroughly Semitic language", even though it does indeed
                                reflect both phonetic and structural aspects of Semitic. It's commonplace
                                to
                                point out that Quenya and Sindarin respectively resemble Finnish and Welsh;
                                and
                                yet Quenya is obviously not "a thoroughly Finno-Ugric language", any more
                                than
                                Sindarin is "a thoroughly Celtic language". Their sound-systems reflect
                                certain
                                characteristic features of Finnish and Welsh that Tolkien particularly
                                liked,
                                but leave out others that were judged less attractive (Quenya lacks the
                                "umlauted" vowels of Finnish; Sindarin omits the ubiquitous short-_y_
                                "schwa" vowel
                                of Welsh, etc.). On the structural level the subcreated languages share
                                certain salient features with their primary-world models (eg, a great
                                variety of
                                case-suffixes in Quenya/Finnish; initial consonant mutation in
                                Sindarin/Welsh,
                                etc.), but by and large don't reproduce the primary-world languages'
                                grammars
                                closely at all. I see the relation of Adûnaic to Semitic languages as being
                                of
                                exactly the same degree: Tolkien incorporated aspects of Semitic phonetics
                                that he found particularly suggestive or striking aesthetically (while
                                ignoring
                                others), and singled out one aspect of Semitic grammar (vowel variation
                                within
                                triconsonantal roots -- a far more complex and sophisticated phenomenon
                                than
                                Ablaut in Germanic languages) as particularly interesting and distinctive
                                and
                                worthy of being experimented with in a subcreated language. This last
                                choice
                                would indeed have necessitated his being exposed to the conjugation of a
                                Hebrew
                                (or Arabic) verb. I don't see that this would have been beyond his reach,
                                or
                                that it would have required devoting a great deal of time to intensive
                                study of
                                Hebrew.
                                Alexei



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                              • alexeik@aol.com
                                In a message dated 6/14/4 1:58:04 PM, Diane Joy wrote: A verb
                                Message 15 of 20 , Jun 14 10:50 AM
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                                  In a message dated 6/14/4 1:58:04 PM, Diane Joy wrote:

                                  <<Pardon my linguistic ignorance, but what is an "extended verb?" Thanks in

                                  advance. ---djb>>

                                  A verb with various affixes in addition to its basic root and
                                  number/gender/person indicators, thus modifying its meaning.
                                  Alexei
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