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Re: [mythsoc] Stewardship vs Dominion and other languagequestions

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  • Berni Phillips
    From: Margaret Dean ... I just call them regular books of the Bible. What they are are what was used in Jesus time but were sometime
    Message 1 of 30 , May 28, 2004
      From: "Margaret Dean" <margdean@...>



      > Elizabeth Apgar Triano wrote:
      >
      > > remember, is it the Catholic bibles that have the... oh shoot... those
      > > extra books what are they called?... or the Prot ones?
      >
      > Apocrypha. Catholic bibles, I think, have them; Protestant
      > bibles usually not.

      I just call them regular books of the Bible. What they are are what was
      used in Jesus' time but were sometime not too long after thrown out by the
      Jews because they could not find scrolls with them in Hebrew, just in Greek
      (which was the "civilized" language of the time). I have read that scrolls
      have turned up since then with some of these texts in Hebrew.

      The books are also referred to sometimes as the "deutero-canon," for "second
      canon." It's first and second Maccabbees (probably the most recent thing in
      the Old Testament -- Greek was the common tongue then so it makes sense that
      they would have been written in Greek), Tobit, another wisdom book whose
      name currently escapes me, and chapters of Daniel and Esther. (I could be
      forgetting more.)

      Maccabbees is history and rather gory -- it's basically the story of the
      Jews rebelling against the Greeks. It also contains what Catholics cite as
      scriptural basis for purgatory: at one point, the soldiers pray for their
      fallen comrades. The thinking was that if the dead are in heaven, they
      don't need prayers, if they're in hell, it's too late for prayer, so there
      must be a third state where they're not in heaven yet but will advance there
      eventually, helped on by the prayers of those still living.

      Tobit is a story (teaching story, not necessarily history). It's a hoot and
      very mythopoeic. (See, Joan, it's not totally off-topic.) A bird craps in
      Tobit's eye and he goes blind. He sends his son, Tobias, to a relative to
      collect some money that Tobit had left with him. The angel Rafael is
      Tobias's traveling companion, but Tobias doesn't realize he's an angel. He
      gets to the distant cousin and lo, he has a beautiful, marriageable daughter
      . There's just one catch: she's been married seven times already and each
      time a demon has appeared on her wedding night and killed her new husband.
      The angel tells Tobias how to cook this demon's goose. Tobias weds hottie,
      kills demon, takes money home to dad, and, thanks to the angel, cures dad's
      eyesight with some remedy involving a fish.

      I believe the Orthodox Bibles have a slightly different canon yet.

      Remember, the canon of the Bible wasn't set until hundreds of years after
      Jesus lived. Read the edition you're most comfortable with.

      Berni
    • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
      Hey Berni, Thanks for the info. Tobit is a popular book for wedding readings. Is that where the expressions about goose is cooked come from then? Isn t
      Message 2 of 30 , May 29, 2004
        Hey Berni,

        Thanks for the info.

        Tobit is a popular book for wedding readings. Is that where the
        expressions about "goose is cooked" come from then?

        Isn't Ecclesiasticus also in there?

        I agree that we should read what we're most comfortable with -- but then
        again, how do we find our favorites of anything except by at some point
        trying them for the first time?

        Good morning, all,

        Lizzie

        Elizabeth Apgar Triano
        lizziewriter@...
        amor vincit omnia
      • Carl F. Hostetter
        ... THANK YOU for saying so! I just finished this recently, and could only slog through it because I love to pick apart conspiracy theories and unhistorical
        Message 3 of 30 , May 29, 2004
          On May 27, 2004, at 11:44 PM, Berni Phillips wrote:

          > Don't bother with _The Da Vinci Code_ -- he lifted all his stuff from
          > _Holy
          > Blood, Holy Grail_, and DVC is very poorly written.

          THANK YOU for saying so! I just finished this recently, and could only
          slog through it because I love to pick apart conspiracy theories and
          unhistorical balderdash -- for fun! But the writing really is _awful_,
          full of howlers. Take this one for example, from early on:

          -----

          "Bezu Fache," the driver said. ... "We call him _le Taureau_."
          Langdon glanced over at him, wondering if every Frenchman had a
          mysterious animal epithet.
          "You call your captain _the Bull_?"
          The man arched his eyebrows. "Your French is better than you admit,
          Monsieur Langdon."
          _My French stinks_, Langdon though, _but my zodiac iconography is
          pretty good_. Taurus was always the bull.

          ------

          Well DUH! That's because taurus _means_ 'bull'! And so does this book.


          --
          =============================================
          Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org

          ho bios brachys, he de techne makre.
          Ars longa, vita brevis.
          The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.
          "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take such
          a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."
        • Berni Phillips
          From: Carl F. Hostetter ... My favorite is the original murder set-up. The murderer is a hulking albino monk. Now, those are three
          Message 4 of 30 , May 29, 2004
            From: "Carl F. Hostetter" <Aelfwine@...>

            > THANK YOU for saying so! I just finished this recently, and could only
            > slog through it because I love to pick apart conspiracy theories and
            > unhistorical balderdash -- for fun! But the writing really is _awful_,
            > full of howlers.

            My favorite is the original murder set-up. The murderer is a hulking albino
            monk. Now, those are three words that never should go together in the first
            place -- I started out thinking the book was a comedy. If you're hiring a
            hit man, wouldn't it be a better idea to hire someone who can blend in with
            the crowd than a ... hulking ... albino ... monk?

            And they have him be a member of Opus Dei -- which is for lay people. It
            doesn't have any monks.

            I also laughed at the romance novel-type description of the hero and a
            similar description of the police chief. It was so gushing and florid.
            Brown doesn't spend nearly as much oomph discussing the physical attributes
            of the main female character -- and her appearance is actually connected to
            the plot!

            It's definitely a toss-against-the-wall book or a contender for what to read
            from when people get tired of "The Eye of Argon." (Lizzie, that's an
            infamous short story that is commonly read late at night at science fiction
            conventions. It's very bad -- overloaded with cliches and typos. The
            schtick is that a person reads until they start laughing and then it's
            passed to the next person and so on.)

            Hey, that would be a good Mythcon activity -- reading from really bad
            fantasies until you laugh.

            Berni
          • Carl F. Hostetter
            ... Amen. One critic aptly and succinctly expressed the argument of the book thusly: _If_ Jesus married Mary Magdalene _then_ we should all engage in ritual
            Message 5 of 30 , May 29, 2004
              On May 29, 2004, at 10:31 PM, Berni Phillips wrote:

              > It's definitely a toss-against-the-wall book

              Amen.

              One critic aptly and succinctly expressed the argument of the book
              thusly:

              _If_ Jesus married Mary Magdalene _then_ we should all engage in ritual
              orgies in front of admiring audiences.

              My suspicion is that this is the sort of argument advanced by and
              appealing primarily to those who are already big fans of lots and lots
              of anonymous sex....
            • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
              Message 6 of 30 , May 30, 2004
                <<One critic aptly and succinctly expressed the argument of the book
                thusly:

                _If_ Jesus married Mary Magdalene _then_ we should all engage in ritual
                orgies in front of admiring audiences.

                My suspicion is that this is the sort of argument advanced by and
                appealing primarily to those who are already big fans of lots and lots
                of anonymous sex....
                >>

                *disappointed* That's it? That's the theme of the book? I'm a big fan of
                sex, actually, but not the mega-anonymous kind. I like the Jesus-Mary
                Magdalene theme, but more in a mystical-romance kind of treatment.

                I'll chuck this book in the same mental pile as Cunningham's _Daughter of
                the Shining Isles_, and keep looking.

                As for "Eye of Argon," I've never heard of it. Is it one of those "It was
                a dark and stormy night" sort of tales? I do want to find those. But as
                for reading silly stuff out loud and making fun of it... I dunno...
                sometimes one person's painfully awful is another person's entertainingly
                funny. I guess I'm a mush...

                Lizzie

                Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                lizziewriter@...
                amor vincit omnia
              • juliet@firinn.org
                ... Here s the Eye of Argon. Please don t read it with a beverage in hand. http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/SF-Archives/Misc/Eye_Of_The_Argon Julie
                Message 7 of 30 , May 30, 2004
                  On Sun, May 30, 2004 at 12:33:09PM -0400, Elizabeth Apgar Triano wrote:
                  > As for "Eye of Argon," I've never heard of it. Is it one of those "It was
                  > a dark and stormy night" sort of tales? I do want to find those. But as
                  > for reading silly stuff out loud and making fun of it... I dunno...
                  > sometimes one person's painfully awful is another person's entertainingly
                  > funny. I guess I'm a mush...
                  >
                  Here's the Eye of Argon. Please don't read it with a beverage in hand.
                  http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/SF-Archives/Misc/Eye_Of_The_Argon

                  Julie
                • Stolzi
                  We need to do that in Ann Arbor this summer!! Diamond Proudbrook ... Here s the Eye of Argon. Please don t read it with a beverage in hand.
                  Message 8 of 30 , May 30, 2004
                    We need to do that in Ann Arbor this summer!!

                    Diamond Proudbrook

                    ----- Original Message -----

                    Here's the Eye of Argon. Please don't read it with a beverage in hand.
                    http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/SF-Archives/Misc/Eye_Of_The_Argon




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • David Bratman
                    ... Wasn t there a hulking albino monk in _The Princess Bride_? Now there s a great comedic fantasy for you. ... There s also a TV show called _Monk_ that
                    Message 9 of 30 , May 30, 2004
                      At 07:31 PM 5/29/2004 -0700, Berni Phillips wrote:

                      >My favorite is the original murder set-up. The murderer is a hulking albino
                      >monk. Now, those are three words that never should go together in the first
                      >place -- I started out thinking the book was a comedy. If you're hiring a
                      >hit man, wouldn't it be a better idea to hire someone who can blend in with
                      >the crowd than a ... hulking ... albino ... monk?

                      Wasn't there a hulking albino monk in _The Princess Bride_? Now there's a
                      great comedic fantasy for you.


                      >And they have him be a member of Opus Dei -- which is for lay people. It
                      >doesn't have any monks.

                      There's also a TV show called _Monk_ that doesn't have any monks in it
                      either. Talk about misleading.


                      >Hey, that would be a good Mythcon activity -- reading from really bad
                      >fantasies until you laugh.

                      Or watching really bad fantasy movies until you laugh. We did that one
                      last year.

                      - David Bratman
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