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Re: [mythsoc] is genome stuff OT?

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  • Ted Sherman
    ... Well, I m generally shy also--except when I m online. The distance of online communication allows one to be alittle bit less inhibited (at least that s
    Message 1 of 13 , Mar 6 2:36 PM
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      ERATRIANO@... wrote:
      >
      > From: ERATRIANO@...
      >
      > In a message dated 03/06/2000 4:26:15 PM Eastern Standard Time,
      > tedsherman@... writes:
      >
      > << The only way to start a
      > conversation is to begin by espousing a position to which others can
      > respond. >>
      > Oh, well, I guess I'm shy. LOL. I haven't read as much as I'd like on
      > genome stuff... I am hoping to read this book, it sounded manageable by a
      > layperson. And I remember a little of the African Eve stuff, was there or
      > wasn't there, supported by mitochondrial DNA (which we only get from our
      > mother). I have a hard time remembering hard science LOL.

      Well, I'm generally shy also--except when I'm online. The distance of
      online communication allows one to be alittle bit less inhibited (at
      least that's true in my case).

      > I was just thinking, if we get theories of ethnic migrations from the genome
      > studies, that it could help date ms such as Beowulf, which I hear is placed
      > somewhere between the 6th and 10th centuries AD, a bit of a spread that isn't
      > it?

      I don't think genome studies would help much with Beowulf. The
      manuscript containing Beowulf dates from the late 10th to early 11th
      century. The handwriting has been dated to 990-1025. The stories in
      Beowulf may go back as far as the 6th century (though I doubt it), but
      they cannot go further. The one truly datable event referred to in
      Beowulf--Hygelac's Frisian raid--occurred around 520.

      > One snippet of the book given in the Times writeup said, for example,
      > that when the nomadic peoples with an unusual language went north to Finland
      > (the ancestors of the Saami, I suppose), they killed all the men and settled
      > down with the women, as borne out in the DNA. I dunno, wasn't that the
      > standard practice among the Ke-to anyway, killing the men and taking the
      > women?

      I think the above idea is an oversimplification; and I don't mean that
      you, Lizzie, are oversimplifying, but that the NYTimes did. (Journalists
      are notorious for oversimplifying complex notions. Too bad none of them
      learned to write as clearly or to express complex thoughts as succinctly
      as either Lewis or Tolkien.) It used to be thought that the reason there
      are so few truly Celtic words in the English language was because the
      Roman, and later Germanic invaders (read Angles, Saxons, and Jutes of
      Bede's History), slaughtered them in their invasions. Now it is thought
      by many philologists/historical linguists that the Celts simply moved
      west & north into the highlands of Wales and Scotland (as well as south
      across the channel to Brittany). We know they did move in these
      directions from the archaeological evidence, and it seems likely that
      this is the reason so few Celtic words there are in English. (Obviously,
      the closer you get to Wales, Scottish highlands, Cornwall, and Brittany,
      the more likely you are to find words that derive from the Celtic
      languages [whether insular or continental Celtic].)

      There is other evidence that shows the Germanic invaders intermarried
      with the Romano-Celts in Britain. The Romans clearly intermarried and
      got along with the Celts. The sheer number of Roman style jewelry,
      mosaics, homes & buildings, etc., in the archaeological record show
      this.

      Ted
      --
      Dr. Theodore James Sherman
      Department of English, Box X041
      College of Liberal Arts
      Middle Tennessee State University
      Murfreesboro, TN 37130
      615 898-5836; FAX 615 898-5098
      tsherman@...
      tedsherman@...
    • ERATRIANO@aol.com
      Well, actually I m only shy in places like this where demonstrably lucid and logical thought is a requirement. LOL. I accept your point about journalistic
      Message 2 of 13 , Mar 6 4:36 PM
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        Well, actually I'm only shy in places like this where demonstrably lucid and
        logical thought is a requirement. LOL. I accept your point about
        journalistic writing, but I'd like to add that (1) some journalists are
        better than others; and (2) the summaries and anecdotes are what make it
        digestable by a wider audience.... what is it they told us in school,
        newspapers and such are written at about the 4th to 9th grade reading level?
        ho ho ho, I'm not sure my reading level has changed since 4th grade, just
        deepened.

        Anyway, thanks for the clarifications about Beowulf. I was thinking of
        dating it as a story, forgot we are also talking about a manuscript. I can't
        help but think that additional ways of learning about history, once they
        fine-tune them, couldn't but be useful. Like the thing with archaeological
        strata... not perfect, but more pieces for the puzzle.

        I don't know as much linguistic stuff as I'd like to. But I do recall that
        the French and Welsh words for "window" are similar. The French is, I think,
        fenetre (with a circumflex on the 2nd "e"), and the Welsh I can't recall
        exactly but it is very close. What is the Latin for "window"?

        Just rambling.

        Lizzie
      • Steve Schaper
        ... Genetically, though it seems that the Romano-Brits stayed put, sometimes as thralls, and from such items as the Doomsday book, in villages under Angle
        Message 3 of 13 , Mar 6 4:54 PM
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          At 4:36 PM -0600 3/6/00, Ted Sherman wrote:
          >
          >as either Lewis or Tolkien.) It used to be thought that the reason there
          >are so few truly Celtic words in the English language was because the
          >Roman, and later Germanic invaders (read Angles, Saxons, and Jutes of
          >Bede's History), slaughtered them in their invasions. Now it is thought
          >by many philologists/historical linguists that the Celts simply moved
          >west & north into the highlands of Wales and Scotland (as well as south
          >across the channel to Brittany). We know they did move in these
          >directions from the archaeological evidence, and it seems likely that
          >this is the reason so few Celtic words there are in English. (Obviously,
          >the closer you get to Wales, Scottish highlands, Cornwall, and Brittany,
          >the more likely you are to find words that derive from the Celtic
          >languages [whether insular or continental Celtic].)

          Genetically, though it seems that the Romano-Brits stayed put,
          sometimes as thralls, and from such items as the Doomsday book, in
          villages under Angle lordship. Why their language was replaced I
          don't know, but they seem to have had a real presence and identity up
          through the early Norman period, throughout much of England.

          ====================================
          Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
          sschaper@...
          members.delphi.com/sschaper/web/sschaper.html
          ====================================
        • Stolzi@aol.com
          In a message dated 3/6/00 6:43:02 PM Central Standard Time, ERATRIANO@aol.com ... Fenestra. If someone offers to defenestrate you, don t accept.
          Message 4 of 13 , Mar 6 7:34 PM
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            In a message dated 3/6/00 6:43:02 PM Central Standard Time, ERATRIANO@...
            writes:

            > What is the Latin for "window"?

            Fenestra.

            If someone offers to defenestrate you, don't accept.
          • Steve Schaper
            ... What year -was- the Defenestration of Prague? ==================================== Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? sschaper@uswest.net
            Message 5 of 13 , Mar 6 8:04 PM
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              At 10:34 PM -0500 3/6/00, Stolzi@... wrote:
              >From: Stolzi@...
              >
              >In a message dated 3/6/00 6:43:02 PM Central Standard Time, ERATRIANO@...
              >writes:
              >
              >> What is the Latin for "window"?
              >
              >Fenestra.
              >
              >If someone offers to defenestrate you, don't accept.


              What year -was- the Defenestration of Prague?

              ====================================
              Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
              sschaper@...
              members.delphi.com/sschaper/web/sschaper.html
              ====================================
            • WendellWag@aol.com
              In a message dated 3/6/00 7:42:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, ERATRIANO@aol.com ... Let me make some suggestions if you want to learn some new things about the
              Message 6 of 13 , Mar 7 5:12 AM
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                In a message dated 3/6/00 7:42:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, ERATRIANO@...
                writes:

                > I don't know as much linguistic stuff as I'd like to.

                Let me make some suggestions if you want to learn some new things about the
                interactions of the Celts and others in Britain, particularly as related to
                language. First, don't worry very much about articles and reviews in
                newspapers, even in something as reliable as _The New York Times_. These
                articles are about new and somewhat controversial discoveries. These ideas
                might turn out to be correct, but they might get knocked down in the next
                paper on the subject. It would be more efficient to learn about the subject
                from a book than from a meandering discussion on a mailing list. Why not
                start with a good, recent history of the Celts (um, actually, I need to read
                one of these) and then a good, recent history of the English language?

                If you don't know much about linguistic matters, you might want to read a
                good introductory book about linguistics. Get one that concentrates on the
                ideas of what a language is, the idea of language and dialect, how languages
                change, etc., rather than on picky details of generative grammar. Perhaps
                you already know this stuff, but I'm frequently surprised to find
                intelligent, well-read people who don't know anything about linguistics.

                Wendell Wagner
              • LSolarion@aol.com
                In a message dated 03/06/2000 5:57:46 PM Pacific Standard Time, sschaper@USWEST.NET writes:
                Message 7 of 13 , Mar 7 5:37 AM
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                  In a message dated 03/06/2000 5:57:46 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                  sschaper@... writes:

                  << Why their language was replaced I
                  don't know, but they seem to have had a real presence and identity up
                  through the early Norman period, throughout much of England.
                  >>

                  Perhaps for the same reason so many American Indians speak English: their
                  native language was forbidden. To conquer a people, you must conquer their
                  culture, and you cannot do that without replacing their language with your
                  own. But this is just a guess.

                  As an aside, I emerge out of lurkerhood and introduce myself. I have been a
                  fantasy fan for many years, and especially enjoy Tolkien, Lewis, and Charles
                  Williams (as well as E.R. Eddison and George R.R. Martin, and recently, Harry
                  Potter). In fact, I find in their fantasies more truth than in the so-called
                  real world (that is, the "world" in the Biblical sense). So this list is a
                  gift I am thankful for, and I look forward to many more stimulating
                  discussions.

                  LSolarion
                • Steve Schaper
                  ... The problem with that is that the population of the indigenes here is miniscule compared to the majority. It seems that Romano-British may have survived
                  Message 8 of 13 , Mar 7 5:58 AM
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                    At 8:37 AM -0500 3/7/00, LSolarion@... wrote:
                    >From: LSolarion@...
                    >
                    >In a message dated 03/06/2000 5:57:46 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                    >sschaper@... writes:
                    >
                    ><< Why their language was replaced I
                    > don't know, but they seem to have had a real presence and identity up
                    > through the early Norman period, throughout much of England.
                    > >>
                    >
                    >Perhaps for the same reason so many American Indians speak English: their
                    >native language was forbidden. To conquer a people, you must conquer their
                    >culture, and you cannot do that without replacing their language with your
                    >own. But this is just a guess.


                    The problem with that is that the population of the indigenes here is
                    miniscule compared to the majority. It seems that Romano-British may
                    have survived into the early Norman period in Enland. Certainly
                    villages identified by their Angle neighbors as such did so.

                    ====================================
                    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
                    sschaper@...
                    members.delphi.com/sschaper/web/sschaper.html
                    ====================================
                  • ERATRIANO@aol.com
                    In a message dated 03/07/2000 8:20:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, WendellWag@aol.com writes:
                    Message 9 of 13 , Mar 7 6:39 AM
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                      In a message dated 03/07/2000 8:20:06 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                      WendellWag@... writes:

                      << Why not
                      start with a good, recent history of the Celts (um, actually, I need to read
                      one of these) and then a good, recent history of the English language? >>
                      Okay so you and I both need a title for the first, and I need a title for the
                      second. Anyone have some recommendations? I often fall asleep reading
                      nonfiction, by the way.

                      Lizzie
                    • Stolzi@aol.com
                      Mario Pei wrote some good popular books about linguistics, as I recall, but they re some decades old now... Mary S
                      Message 10 of 13 , Mar 7 7:14 AM
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                        Mario Pei wrote some good popular books about linguistics, as I recall, but
                        they're some decades old now...

                        Mary S
                      • Paul F. Labaki
                        Several years ago I tried Eddison, I really tried to read him, and enjoy his work. After all, it comes with some good recommendations. This was my second
                        Message 11 of 13 , Mar 7 2:26 PM
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                          Several years ago I tried Eddison, I really tried to read him, and enjoy his
                          work. After all, it comes with some good recommendations. This was my
                          second serious attempt, having tried once about four years before that.

                          Please, someone tell me why I should try again -- assuming I should -- and
                          what particular elements of his storytelling and of his writing are worth
                          what appears to me to be quite considerable effort?

                          I had a lot of fun hunting down cheap paperback copies of his work in
                          bookstores all over the east, but now I just have a lot of occupied shelf
                          space that preserves them as museum pieces in my fantasy collection. The
                          biggest problem is the curator is, in this case, an ignoramus. I apologize,
                          I just felt like writing the word ignoramus.

                          Peace,
                          Paul Labaki

                          > From: LSolarion@...
                          > Reply-To: mythsoc@onelist.com
                          > Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 08:37:22 EST
                          > To: mythsoc@onelist.com
                          > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] is genome stuff OT?
                          >
                          > From: LSolarion@...
                          >
                          > In a message dated 03/06/2000 5:57:46 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                          > sschaper@... writes:
                          >
                          > << Why their language was replaced I
                          > don't know, but they seem to have had a real presence and identity up
                          > through the early Norman period, throughout much of England.
                          >>>
                          >
                          > Perhaps for the same reason so many American Indians speak English: their
                          > native language was forbidden. To conquer a people, you must conquer their
                          > culture, and you cannot do that without replacing their language with your
                          > own. But this is just a guess.
                          >
                          > As an aside, I emerge out of lurkerhood and introduce myself. I have been a
                          > fantasy fan for many years, and especially enjoy Tolkien, Lewis, and Charles
                          > Williams (as well as E.R. Eddison and George R.R. Martin, and recently, Harry
                          > Potter). In fact, I find in their fantasies more truth than in the so-called
                          > real world (that is, the "world" in the Biblical sense). So this list is a
                          > gift I am thankful for, and I look forward to many more stimulating
                          > discussions.
                          >
                          > LSolarion
                          >
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