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Re: Re: [mythsoc] Stewardship vs Dominion and other languagequestions

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  • Larry Swain
    On the question of rdd , the Hebrew word in Gen 1:28, that s correct. Unfortunately it isn t the Hebrew word that influences later Christian thought. The
    Message 1 of 30 , May 28, 2004
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      On the question of "rdd", the Hebrew word in Gen 1:28, that's correct. Unfortunately it isn't the Hebrew word that influences later Christian thought. The Greek word is KATAKURIEUW--act like a lord, be lord over and the Latin word is subicio--from which we get the word subject and means to subject, subsume, and by extension in later Latin, to rule over. But Christian commentary through the ages emphasizes human stewardship under God--God rules all, humanity to rule underneath that, and the place oddly enough that they point to is this verse.

      Larry
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    • Stolzi
      It s not quite nature guardians but you might take a look at THE HOLY by Daniel Quinn (which I found in regular fiction, not f/sf). Diamond Proudbrook ...
      Message 2 of 30 , May 28, 2004
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        It's not quite "nature guardians" but you might take a look at THE HOLY by Daniel Quinn (which I found in regular fiction, not f/sf).


        Diamond Proudbrook

        ----- Original Message -----
        I'm searching my brain but can't remember anything which fetures
        speciffically the "nature guardians" in a contemporary fantasy book. If
        anybody else can I'd be appreciative.






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
        Message 3 of 30 , May 28, 2004
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          <<I don't
          think that's the word they want to use but I can't remember the actual
          Hebrew word either.>>

          Well, in Genesis 1:26 the word used is the verb _rdd_, which literally
          means
          "to beat down", so it emphasises the rather aggressive, "domination" aspect
          of
          "dominion". >>

          Thank you, Alexei and Larry and anyone else. I went and looked up the
          citation, and my book also lists "dominion." But I know I have heard
          "stewardship" in this context. Maybe not in Genesis, but somewhere. I
          guess both words are featured.

          As usual here, when I ask a question I get more than enough to chew on for
          a good few days. Thanks again.

          Lizzie

          Elizabeth Apgar Triano
          lizziewriter@...
          amor vincit omnia
        • juliet@firinn.org
          ... Ah yes, just the verb for what we have to do in our Texas back yard if we let the mowing go one week too long ;) Julie
          Message 4 of 30 , May 28, 2004
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            On Fri, May 28, 2004 at 12:09:37PM -0400, alexeik@... wrote:
            >
            > In a message dated 5/28/4 1:56:26 AM, darancgrissom wrote:
            >
            > <<I don't
            > think that's the word they want to use but I can't remember the actual
            > Hebrew word either.>>
            >
            > Well, in Genesis 1:26 the word used is the verb _rdd_, which literally means
            > "to beat down", so it emphasises the rather aggressive, "domination" aspect of
            > "dominion".

            Ah yes, just the verb for what we have to do in our Texas back yard if
            we let the mowing go one week too long ;)

            Julie
          • Berni Phillips
            From: Margaret Dean ... I just call them regular books of the Bible. What they are are what was used in Jesus time but were sometime
            Message 5 of 30 , May 28, 2004
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              From: "Margaret Dean" <margdean@...>



              > Elizabeth Apgar Triano wrote:
              >
              > > remember, is it the Catholic bibles that have the... oh shoot... those
              > > extra books what are they called?... or the Prot ones?
              >
              > Apocrypha. Catholic bibles, I think, have them; Protestant
              > bibles usually not.

              I just call them regular books of the Bible. What they are are what was
              used in Jesus' time but were sometime not too long after thrown out by the
              Jews because they could not find scrolls with them in Hebrew, just in Greek
              (which was the "civilized" language of the time). I have read that scrolls
              have turned up since then with some of these texts in Hebrew.

              The books are also referred to sometimes as the "deutero-canon," for "second
              canon." It's first and second Maccabbees (probably the most recent thing in
              the Old Testament -- Greek was the common tongue then so it makes sense that
              they would have been written in Greek), Tobit, another wisdom book whose
              name currently escapes me, and chapters of Daniel and Esther. (I could be
              forgetting more.)

              Maccabbees is history and rather gory -- it's basically the story of the
              Jews rebelling against the Greeks. It also contains what Catholics cite as
              scriptural basis for purgatory: at one point, the soldiers pray for their
              fallen comrades. The thinking was that if the dead are in heaven, they
              don't need prayers, if they're in hell, it's too late for prayer, so there
              must be a third state where they're not in heaven yet but will advance there
              eventually, helped on by the prayers of those still living.

              Tobit is a story (teaching story, not necessarily history). It's a hoot and
              very mythopoeic. (See, Joan, it's not totally off-topic.) A bird craps in
              Tobit's eye and he goes blind. He sends his son, Tobias, to a relative to
              collect some money that Tobit had left with him. The angel Rafael is
              Tobias's traveling companion, but Tobias doesn't realize he's an angel. He
              gets to the distant cousin and lo, he has a beautiful, marriageable daughter
              . There's just one catch: she's been married seven times already and each
              time a demon has appeared on her wedding night and killed her new husband.
              The angel tells Tobias how to cook this demon's goose. Tobias weds hottie,
              kills demon, takes money home to dad, and, thanks to the angel, cures dad's
              eyesight with some remedy involving a fish.

              I believe the Orthodox Bibles have a slightly different canon yet.

              Remember, the canon of the Bible wasn't set until hundreds of years after
              Jesus lived. Read the edition you're most comfortable with.

              Berni
            • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
              Hey Berni, Thanks for the info. Tobit is a popular book for wedding readings. Is that where the expressions about goose is cooked come from then? Isn t
              Message 6 of 30 , May 29, 2004
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                Hey Berni,

                Thanks for the info.

                Tobit is a popular book for wedding readings. Is that where the
                expressions about "goose is cooked" come from then?

                Isn't Ecclesiasticus also in there?

                I agree that we should read what we're most comfortable with -- but then
                again, how do we find our favorites of anything except by at some point
                trying them for the first time?

                Good morning, all,

                Lizzie

                Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                lizziewriter@...
                amor vincit omnia
              • Carl F. Hostetter
                ... THANK YOU for saying so! I just finished this recently, and could only slog through it because I love to pick apart conspiracy theories and unhistorical
                Message 7 of 30 , May 29, 2004
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                  On May 27, 2004, at 11:44 PM, Berni Phillips wrote:

                  > Don't bother with _The Da Vinci Code_ -- he lifted all his stuff from
                  > _Holy
                  > Blood, Holy Grail_, and DVC is very poorly written.

                  THANK YOU for saying so! I just finished this recently, and could only
                  slog through it because I love to pick apart conspiracy theories and
                  unhistorical balderdash -- for fun! But the writing really is _awful_,
                  full of howlers. Take this one for example, from early on:

                  -----

                  "Bezu Fache," the driver said. ... "We call him _le Taureau_."
                  Langdon glanced over at him, wondering if every Frenchman had a
                  mysterious animal epithet.
                  "You call your captain _the Bull_?"
                  The man arched his eyebrows. "Your French is better than you admit,
                  Monsieur Langdon."
                  _My French stinks_, Langdon though, _but my zodiac iconography is
                  pretty good_. Taurus was always the bull.

                  ------

                  Well DUH! That's because taurus _means_ 'bull'! And so does this book.


                  --
                  =============================================
                  Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org

                  ho bios brachys, he de techne makre.
                  Ars longa, vita brevis.
                  The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.
                  "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take such
                  a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."
                • Berni Phillips
                  From: Carl F. Hostetter ... My favorite is the original murder set-up. The murderer is a hulking albino monk. Now, those are three
                  Message 8 of 30 , May 29, 2004
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                    From: "Carl F. Hostetter" <Aelfwine@...>

                    > THANK YOU for saying so! I just finished this recently, and could only
                    > slog through it because I love to pick apart conspiracy theories and
                    > unhistorical balderdash -- for fun! But the writing really is _awful_,
                    > full of howlers.

                    My favorite is the original murder set-up. The murderer is a hulking albino
                    monk. Now, those are three words that never should go together in the first
                    place -- I started out thinking the book was a comedy. If you're hiring a
                    hit man, wouldn't it be a better idea to hire someone who can blend in with
                    the crowd than a ... hulking ... albino ... monk?

                    And they have him be a member of Opus Dei -- which is for lay people. It
                    doesn't have any monks.

                    I also laughed at the romance novel-type description of the hero and a
                    similar description of the police chief. It was so gushing and florid.
                    Brown doesn't spend nearly as much oomph discussing the physical attributes
                    of the main female character -- and her appearance is actually connected to
                    the plot!

                    It's definitely a toss-against-the-wall book or a contender for what to read
                    from when people get tired of "The Eye of Argon." (Lizzie, that's an
                    infamous short story that is commonly read late at night at science fiction
                    conventions. It's very bad -- overloaded with cliches and typos. The
                    schtick is that a person reads until they start laughing and then it's
                    passed to the next person and so on.)

                    Hey, that would be a good Mythcon activity -- reading from really bad
                    fantasies until you laugh.

                    Berni
                  • Carl F. Hostetter
                    ... Amen. One critic aptly and succinctly expressed the argument of the book thusly: _If_ Jesus married Mary Magdalene _then_ we should all engage in ritual
                    Message 9 of 30 , May 29, 2004
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                      On May 29, 2004, at 10:31 PM, Berni Phillips wrote:

                      > It's definitely a toss-against-the-wall book

                      Amen.

                      One critic aptly and succinctly expressed the argument of the book
                      thusly:

                      _If_ Jesus married Mary Magdalene _then_ we should all engage in ritual
                      orgies in front of admiring audiences.

                      My suspicion is that this is the sort of argument advanced by and
                      appealing primarily to those who are already big fans of lots and lots
                      of anonymous sex....
                    • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                      Message 10 of 30 , May 30, 2004
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                        <<One critic aptly and succinctly expressed the argument of the book
                        thusly:

                        _If_ Jesus married Mary Magdalene _then_ we should all engage in ritual
                        orgies in front of admiring audiences.

                        My suspicion is that this is the sort of argument advanced by and
                        appealing primarily to those who are already big fans of lots and lots
                        of anonymous sex....
                        >>

                        *disappointed* That's it? That's the theme of the book? I'm a big fan of
                        sex, actually, but not the mega-anonymous kind. I like the Jesus-Mary
                        Magdalene theme, but more in a mystical-romance kind of treatment.

                        I'll chuck this book in the same mental pile as Cunningham's _Daughter of
                        the Shining Isles_, and keep looking.

                        As for "Eye of Argon," I've never heard of it. Is it one of those "It was
                        a dark and stormy night" sort of tales? I do want to find those. But as
                        for reading silly stuff out loud and making fun of it... I dunno...
                        sometimes one person's painfully awful is another person's entertainingly
                        funny. I guess I'm a mush...

                        Lizzie

                        Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                        lizziewriter@...
                        amor vincit omnia
                      • juliet@firinn.org
                        ... Here s the Eye of Argon. Please don t read it with a beverage in hand. http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/SF-Archives/Misc/Eye_Of_The_Argon Julie
                        Message 11 of 30 , May 30, 2004
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                          On Sun, May 30, 2004 at 12:33:09PM -0400, Elizabeth Apgar Triano wrote:
                          > As for "Eye of Argon," I've never heard of it. Is it one of those "It was
                          > a dark and stormy night" sort of tales? I do want to find those. But as
                          > for reading silly stuff out loud and making fun of it... I dunno...
                          > sometimes one person's painfully awful is another person's entertainingly
                          > funny. I guess I'm a mush...
                          >
                          Here's the Eye of Argon. Please don't read it with a beverage in hand.
                          http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/SF-Archives/Misc/Eye_Of_The_Argon

                          Julie
                        • Stolzi
                          We need to do that in Ann Arbor this summer!! Diamond Proudbrook ... Here s the Eye of Argon. Please don t read it with a beverage in hand.
                          Message 12 of 30 , May 30, 2004
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                            We need to do that in Ann Arbor this summer!!

                            Diamond Proudbrook

                            ----- Original Message -----

                            Here's the Eye of Argon. Please don't read it with a beverage in hand.
                            http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/SF-Archives/Misc/Eye_Of_The_Argon




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • David Bratman
                            ... Wasn t there a hulking albino monk in _The Princess Bride_? Now there s a great comedic fantasy for you. ... There s also a TV show called _Monk_ that
                            Message 13 of 30 , May 30, 2004
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                              At 07:31 PM 5/29/2004 -0700, Berni Phillips wrote:

                              >My favorite is the original murder set-up. The murderer is a hulking albino
                              >monk. Now, those are three words that never should go together in the first
                              >place -- I started out thinking the book was a comedy. If you're hiring a
                              >hit man, wouldn't it be a better idea to hire someone who can blend in with
                              >the crowd than a ... hulking ... albino ... monk?

                              Wasn't there a hulking albino monk in _The Princess Bride_? Now there's a
                              great comedic fantasy for you.


                              >And they have him be a member of Opus Dei -- which is for lay people. It
                              >doesn't have any monks.

                              There's also a TV show called _Monk_ that doesn't have any monks in it
                              either. Talk about misleading.


                              >Hey, that would be a good Mythcon activity -- reading from really bad
                              >fantasies until you laugh.

                              Or watching really bad fantasy movies until you laugh. We did that one
                              last year.

                              - David Bratman
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