Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [mythsoc] Crossdressing heroines and other things that remain

Expand Messages
  • jamcconney@aol.com
    ... I never knew) but I feel as if there were others Well, there are all those Shakesperian comedy heroines--Rosalind, and whats-her-name in Twelfth Night and
    Message 1 of 17 , May 4 6:33 PM
    • 0 Attachment
      >So, yes, there is Jeanne d'Arc (who met a sad fate) and Mu Lan (whose story
      I never knew) but I feel as if there were others

      Well, there are all those Shakesperian comedy heroines--Rosalind, and
      whats-her-name in Twelfth Night and so on who disguise themselves as boys. The
      androgynous image seems to fascinate us. I once saw an entire book--can't remember
      the title--devoted to modern films in which a women plays a man (notably Linda
      Hunt in _Year of Living Dangerously_), or pretends/disguises herself as a man
      (_Victor/Victoria_), and though rarer, the other way around too (_Some Like it
      Hot_). In fact such films are so common they currently have a
      name--'gender-bender.' If you mean strictly warrior women, there's not a few of those, too,
      especially in the sword-and-sorcery sub-genre.

      There's an interesting sidelight in _Descent into Hell_ where Peter Stanhope
      suggests that the director of his play "do as Shakespeare did and dress your
      female chorus in exquiste male costume, creating something more wonderful than
      either."

      Anne


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Larry Swain
      Well, there are Amazons in mythology, and there are also the shield-maidens of the Viking invasions. There is also the wonderful story of the
      Message 2 of 17 , May 4 8:30 PM
      • 0 Attachment
        Well, there are Amazons in mythology, and there are also the "shield-maidens" of the Viking invasions. There is also the wonderful story of the Langobards.....The warriors of this tribe asked Frea who would win the battle they were to fight the next day. Frea told them to get their women dressed as warriors, and told the women to wear their long hair like it was a beard and to stand outside Odin's window. When Odin woke up in the morning, he asked "Who are these "long beards", or Langobards. Frea said that those whom Odin had named should be given victory in battle, and so they were.

        Lest we forget, there is also good ol' queen Boudicaea, think I spelled that wrong and Matilda, the Empress who though she never went to battle, did command her troops on occasion.

        Those are a few I can think off of the top of my head.

        Larry Swain




        > >So, yes, there is Jeanne d'Arc (who met a sad fate) and Mu Lan (whose story
        > I never knew) but I feel as if there were others
        >
        > Well, there are all those Shakesperian comedy heroines--Rosalind, and
        > whats-her-name in Twelfth Night and so on who disguise themselves as boys. The
        > androgynous image seems to fascinate us. I once saw an entire book--can't remember
        > the title--devoted to modern films in which a women plays a man (notably Linda
        > Hunt in _Year of Living Dangerously_), or pretends/disguises herself as a man
        > (_Victor/Victoria_), and though rarer, the other way around too (_Some Like it
        > Hot_). In fact such films are so common they currently have a
        > name--'gender-bender.' If you mean strictly warrior women, there's not a few of those, too,
        > especially in the sword-and-sorcery sub-genre.
        >
        > There's an interesting sidelight in _Descent into Hell_ where Peter Stanhope
        > suggests that the director of his play "do as Shakespeare did and dress your
        > female chorus in exquiste male costume, creating something more wonderful than
        > either."
        >
        > Anne
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >

        --
        _____________________________________________________________
        Web-based SMS services available at http://www.operamail.com
        From your mailbox to local or overseas cell phones.

        Powered by Outblaze
      • Stolzi
        i received the material below on a religious List. At the end of the fourth para, we see another woman leading troops in battle. Though it doesn t say what
        Message 3 of 17 , May 6 5:32 PM
        • 0 Attachment
          i received the material below on a religious List. At the end of the fourth para, we see another woman leading troops in battle. Though it doesn't say what she was wearing at the time.

          The prophetess Deborah in the book of JUDGES (4th chapter) in the Bible, and her terrific "song" in Ch. 5, is another example of courage and leadership. And Jael in the same chapter is an example of... something (!)

          ======================================================
          Today, on May 1, the Church honors the holy memory of Saint Tamar
          of Georgia (around 1160-1213), a queen who demonstrated the
          spiritual strength of womanhood as a heroine of faith and virtue.

          Tamar was a descendant of the ancient Bagration dynasty that long
          ruled Georgia, an orthodox Christian country in the Caucasus
          Mountains between Europe and Asia. Born around 1160, she became
          co-ruler with her father, King George III, in 1178. She ruled in
          her own right as monarch after the death of her father in 1184.
          In 1185, she was wed in an arranged marriage to a Russian prince,
          George Bogolyubskiy. But the marriage, which ended up being
          childlessness, ended with the prince's banishment when he involved
          himself in court intrigues and stirred up unrest in Georgia. She
          then married a husband of her own choosing, the Georgian prince
          David Soslan (who proved to be a more faithful consort), in 1188.

          Tamar's reign (1184-1213) went down in history as being Georgia's
          "golden age." A woman of true faith and virtue, she took her
          God-given stewardship of government very seriously, in the spirit
          of Saint Paul the Apostle's teachings (Romans 13:1-7). She
          followed in the footsteps of her royal grandfather, King David III
          (nicknamed the "Builder" or "Restorer," also a saint of the
          Church), building on his initiative to make religion, education
          and culture vibrant forces binding together all Georgians. To
          this end, she sponsored the building of numerous churches,
          monastic communities and schools, where orthodox Christian culture
          was taught and developed. She also convened a council of Georgian
          bishops to set church life in Georgia aright and put it in good
          order.

          Tamar's efforts in this area were not just the expected actions of
          a "typical" medieval monarch. Georgia was surrounded by hostile
          Muslims bent on destroying its orthodox Christian heritage and
          forcing it to convert to Islam. Tamar worked hard to make sure
          that heritage survived and did not fall prey to heterodox enemies.
          When Muslim neighbors demanded that she submit to their rule and
          embrace Islam instead of orthodox Christianity, she took charge of
          her country's military forces herself -- a rather unusual thing in
          a day and age when women were considered weaker and less suited
          for military service than men. Believing it was her duty, as sole
          monarch, to share in the defense of her homeland and the hardships
          of her soldiers, she led them in combat herself. Under her
          leadership, the Georgians scored key defeats over the larger
          forces of Muslim Azerbaijanis and Seljuk Turks in 1193, 1195,
          1203, 1204 and 1206, ensuring the survival of orthodox Christian
          civilization in the region.

          Under Tamar's rule, Georgia reached a historic height as a
          regional power and experienced a major flowering in education and
          culture. A famous Georgian poet of the time, Shota Rustaveli,
          commemorated her queenship in his poem "The Knight in the
          Panther's Skin," an epic of Georgian literature. Because of her
          wise, just rule in peacetime and her bravery on the battlefield,
          her subjects addressed her as "king" as well as "queen." In fact,
          they called her "the king of kings and queen of queens" out of
          love for her. She has gone down in Georgian history as "Tamar the
          Great."

          Tamar spent the final years of her life at Georgia's Bardzia Cave
          Monastery. She lived in a humble nun's cell connected to the
          church by a window, so she could hear and pray along with the
          worship services offered there throughout the day. After a
          lifetime of service to her Church and her people, she peacefully
          fell asleep in the Lord there in 1213. After her death, her name
          was added to the calendar of saints by the Church, due to her
          personal example of heroic faith and virtue, as well as the
          people's veneration of her.

          Tamar's name (and its different forms, such as Tamara, Tamra or
          Thamar) comes from the Old Testament of the Bible. In its
          original Hebrew, it means "date palm tree." By dint of her faith
          and virtue in seeking and following God's will, Tamar lived up to
          her name in line with the words of Psalm 91:11-13 (Septuagint
          numbering): "The righteous will flourish like a palm tree... Those
          planted in the house of the Lord will blossom forth in the courts
          of our God."


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • dianejoy@earthlink.net
          WOW! I m impressed; we could use her help in the war on terrorism. What a terrific lady! I always admired Boudicea, but this woman makes even the Celtic
          Message 4 of 17 , May 7 8:35 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            WOW! I'm impressed; we could use her help in the war on terrorism. What
            a terrific lady! I always admired Boudicea, but this woman makes even the
            Celtic Redhead look like a wimp. (Maybe Condaleeza Rice knows about her?
            Could be!) ---djb

            Original Message:
            -----------------
            From: Stolzi Stolzi@...
            Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 19:32:15 -0500
            To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Crossdressing heroines and other things that remain


            i received the material below on a religious List. At the end of the
            fourth para, we see another woman leading troops in battle. Though it
            doesn't say what she was wearing at the time.

            The prophetess Deborah in the book of JUDGES (4th chapter) in the Bible,
            and her terrific "song" in Ch. 5, is another example of courage and
            leadership. And Jael in the same chapter is an example of... something (!)

            ======================================================
            Today, on May 1, the Church honors the holy memory of Saint Tamar
            of Georgia (around 1160-1213), a queen who demonstrated the
            spiritual strength of womanhood as a heroine of faith and virtue.

            Tamar was a descendant of the ancient Bagration dynasty that long
            ruled Georgia, an orthodox Christian country in the Caucasus
            Mountains between Europe and Asia. Born around 1160, she became
            co-ruler with her father, King George III, in 1178. She ruled in
            her own right as monarch after the death of her father in 1184.
            In 1185, she was wed in an arranged marriage to a Russian prince,
            George Bogolyubskiy. But the marriage, which ended up being
            childlessness, ended with the prince's banishment when he involved
            himself in court intrigues and stirred up unrest in Georgia. She
            then married a husband of her own choosing, the Georgian prince
            David Soslan (who proved to be a more faithful consort), in 1188.

            Tamar's reign (1184-1213) went down in history as being Georgia's
            "golden age." A woman of true faith and virtue, she took her
            God-given stewardship of government very seriously, in the spirit
            of Saint Paul the Apostle's teachings (Romans 13:1-7). She
            followed in the footsteps of her royal grandfather, King David III
            (nicknamed the "Builder" or "Restorer," also a saint of the
            Church), building on his initiative to make religion, education
            and culture vibrant forces binding together all Georgians. To
            this end, she sponsored the building of numerous churches,
            monastic communities and schools, where orthodox Christian culture
            was taught and developed. She also convened a council of Georgian
            bishops to set church life in Georgia aright and put it in good
            order.

            Tamar's efforts in this area were not just the expected actions of
            a "typical" medieval monarch. Georgia was surrounded by hostile
            Muslims bent on destroying its orthodox Christian heritage and
            forcing it to convert to Islam. Tamar worked hard to make sure
            that heritage survived and did not fall prey to heterodox enemies.
            When Muslim neighbors demanded that she submit to their rule and
            embrace Islam instead of orthodox Christianity, she took charge of
            her country's military forces herself -- a rather unusual thing in
            a day and age when women were considered weaker and less suited
            for military service than men. Believing it was her duty, as sole
            monarch, to share in the defense of her homeland and the hardships
            of her soldiers, she led them in combat herself. Under her
            leadership, the Georgians scored key defeats over the larger
            forces of Muslim Azerbaijanis and Seljuk Turks in 1193, 1195,
            1203, 1204 and 1206, ensuring the survival of orthodox Christian
            civilization in the region.

            Under Tamar's rule, Georgia reached a historic height as a
            regional power and experienced a major flowering in education and
            culture. A famous Georgian poet of the time, Shota Rustaveli,
            commemorated her queenship in his poem "The Knight in the
            Panther's Skin," an epic of Georgian literature. Because of her
            wise, just rule in peacetime and her bravery on the battlefield,
            her subjects addressed her as "king" as well as "queen." In fact,
            they called her "the king of kings and queen of queens" out of
            love for her. She has gone down in Georgian history as "Tamar the
            Great."

            Tamar spent the final years of her life at Georgia's Bardzia Cave
            Monastery. She lived in a humble nun's cell connected to the
            church by a window, so she could hear and pray along with the
            worship services offered there throughout the day. After a
            lifetime of service to her Church and her people, she peacefully
            fell asleep in the Lord there in 1213. After her death, her name
            was added to the calendar of saints by the Church, due to her
            personal example of heroic faith and virtue, as well as the
            people's veneration of her.

            Tamar's name (and its different forms, such as Tamara, Tamra or
            Thamar) comes from the Old Testament of the Bible. In its
            original Hebrew, it means "date palm tree." By dint of her faith
            and virtue in seeking and following God's will, Tamar lived up to
            her name in line with the words of Psalm 91:11-13 (Septuagint
            numbering): "The righteous will flourish like a palm tree... Those
            planted in the house of the Lord will blossom forth in the courts
            of our God."


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
            Yahoo! Groups Links






            --------------------------------------------------------------------
            mail2web - Check your email from the web at
            http://mail2web.com/ .
          • Stolzi
            I d love to read The Knight in the Panther s Skin, the poem about Queen Tamara, but it doesn t seem to be available on the Web. One could also mention
            Message 5 of 17 , May 7 10:59 AM
            • 0 Attachment
              I'd love to read "The Knight in the Panther's Skin," the poem about Queen
              Tamara, but it doesn't seem to
              be available on the Web.

              One could also mention Cecelia Holland's novel THE ANGEL AND THE SWORD which
              supposedly comes from a tale of a Spanish princess who fought disguised as a
              knight in the days of the Viking invasions of Europe. i reviewed it a year
              or two back for MYTHPRINT.


              Diamond Proudbrook
            • alexeik@aol.com
              In a message dated 5/7/4 7:32:27 PM, Diamond wrote:
              Message 6 of 17 , May 7 12:42 PM
              • 0 Attachment
                In a message dated 5/7/4 7:32:27 PM, Diamond wrote:

                <<I'd love to read "The Knight in the Panther's Skin," the poem about Queen

                Tamara, but it doesn't seem to

                be available on the Web.

                >>

                It's really more about the hero of the title than about Queen Tamara,
                although it's supposed to take place during her reign. My main recollection of it is
                that the hero spends an enormous amount of time weeping.
                Alexei
              • Jack
                ... http://sangha.net/countries/Georgia/shota.htm
                Message 7 of 17 , May 7 12:54 PM
                • 0 Attachment
                  >In a message dated 5/7/4 7:32:27 PM, Diamond wrote:
                  >
                  ><<I'd love to read "The Knight in the Panther's Skin," the poem about Queen
                  >
                  >Tamara, but it doesn't seem to
                  >
                  >be available on the Web.

                  http://sangha.net/countries/Georgia/shota.htm
                • Stolzi
                  Oh... hang it... I thought -she- must be the Knight in the Panther s Skin. Anyway, thanks for the link! Diamond Proudbrook [Non-text portions of this message
                  Message 8 of 17 , May 7 1:59 PM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Oh... hang it... I thought -she- must be the Knight in the Panther's Skin. Anyway, thanks for the link!

                    Diamond Proudbrook



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • alexeik@aol.com
                    In a message dated 5/7/4 9:35:45 PM, Diamond wrote:
                    Message 9 of 17 , May 8 11:52 AM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      In a message dated 5/7/4 9:35:45 PM, Diamond wrote:

                      <<Oh... hang it... I thought -she- must be the Knight in the Panther's Skin.
                      Anyway, thanks for the link!
                      >>

                      She *is*, actually, in the literary version (as opposed to the folk epic).
                      Alexei
                    • jamcconney@aol.com
                      Can whoever made the first post please give me the source of the story of St. Tamar? I accessed the Knight in the Panther Skin all right, but would like to
                      Message 10 of 17 , May 8 3:35 PM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Can whoever made the first post please give me the source of the story of St.
                        Tamar? I accessed the 'Knight in the Panther Skin' all right, but would like
                        to know the historical source as well.

                        Thanks!
                        Anne


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Stolzi
                        Here s a historical wrap-up on St Tamar: http://www.sciencedaily.com/encyclopedia/tamar_of_georgia One might add that the Christian conversion of Georgia in
                        Message 11 of 17 , May 10 11:03 AM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Here's a historical wrap-up on St Tamar:

                          http://www.sciencedaily.com/encyclopedia/tamar_of_georgia

                          One might add that the Christian conversion of Georgia in the first place is attributed to a woman, St. Nino (an ascetic and healer, not a warrior). Yes, Nino with an "o."

                          Diamond Proudbrook
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: jamcconney@...
                          To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 5:35 PM
                          Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Crossdressing heroines and other things that remain


                          Can whoever made the first post please give me the source of the story of St.
                          Tamar? I accessed the 'Knight in the Panther Skin' all right, but would like
                          to know the historical source as well.


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                          I am glad to see the name Tamar associated with some forces of good/power. Haven t had time to follow up on the actual tales yet, but until now the only
                          Message 12 of 17 , May 10 11:37 AM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I am glad to see the name Tamar associated with some forces of good/power.
                            Haven't had time to follow up on the actual tales yet, but until now the
                            only association I had for that name was I think one of Noah's daughters,
                            who didn't have the greatest plotline associated with her IIRC. It's such
                            a cool name, too.

                            Boadicea rocks.

                            Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                            lizziewriter@...
                            amor vincit omnia
                          • juliet@firinn.org
                            ... The main Biblical Tamar is one of David s daughters. Her half-brother Amnon lusted after her and tricked her into his bedroom, where he raped her and
                            Message 13 of 17 , May 10 12:04 PM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              On Mon, May 10, 2004 at 02:37:43PM -0400, Elizabeth Apgar Triano wrote:
                              > I am glad to see the name Tamar associated with some forces of good/power.
                              > Haven't had time to follow up on the actual tales yet, but until now the
                              > only association I had for that name was I think one of Noah's daughters,
                              > who didn't have the greatest plotline associated with her IIRC. It's such
                              > a cool name, too.
                              >
                              The main Biblical Tamar is one of David's daughters. Her half-brother
                              Amnon lusted after her and tricked her into his bedroom, where he raped
                              her and rejected her. It wasn't her fault, but it certainly is an
                              unpleasant story.

                              Julie
                            • Carl F. Hostetter
                              At a Halloween party I attend years ago, a woman arrived dressed in a cow costume, but with a helmet and carrying a sword. She was Boadi-cow , you see. And
                              Message 14 of 17 , May 10 12:43 PM
                              • 0 Attachment
                                At a Halloween party I attend years ago, a woman arrived dressed in a
                                cow costume, but with a helmet and carrying a sword. She was
                                "Boadi-cow", you see.

                                And yes, she said that men always stared at her udders when talking to
                                her...
                              • Matthew Winslow
                                ... Don t forget Judah s daughter-in-law, Tamar, concerning whom Onan infamously spilled his seed. She also seduced her father-in-law to shame him. (Genesis
                                Message 15 of 17 , May 10 1:50 PM
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  juliet@... [juliet@...] wrote:
                                  > The main Biblical Tamar is one of David's daughters. Her half-brother
                                  > Amnon lusted after her and tricked her into his bedroom, where he raped
                                  > her and rejected her. It wasn't her fault, but it certainly is an
                                  > unpleasant story.

                                  Don't forget Judah's daughter-in-law, Tamar, concerning whom Onan infamously
                                  spilled his seed. She also seduced her father-in-law to shame him. (Genesis
                                  38) The child of that union was Perez, who was one of Jesus's forefathers (cf,
                                  Ruth 4).

                                  --
                                  Matthew Winslow mwinslow@... http://x-real.firinn.org/
                                  "People say that life is the thing, but I prefer reading."
                                  --Logan Pearsall Smith
                                  Currently reading: Shivering World by Kathy Tyers
                                • dianejoy@earthlink.net
                                  OUCH...how moo-ving. And Udder-worldly. ---djb ... From: Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@elvish.org Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 15:43:08 -0400 To:
                                  Message 16 of 17 , May 12 8:00 AM
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    OUCH...how moo-ving. And Udder-worldly. ---djb

                                    Original Message:
                                    -----------------
                                    From: Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@...
                                    Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 15:43:08 -0400
                                    To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Crossdressing heroines and other things that remain


                                    At a Halloween party I attend years ago, a woman arrived dressed in a
                                    cow costume, but with a helmet and carrying a sword. She was
                                    "Boadi-cow", you see.

                                    And yes, she said that men always stared at her udders when talking to
                                    her...




                                    The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                                    Yahoo! Groups Links






                                    --------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    mail2web - Check your email from the web at
                                    http://mail2web.com/ .
                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.