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Crossdressing heroines and other things that remain

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  • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
    So, yes, there is Jeanne d Arc (who met a sad fate) and Mu Lan (whose story I never knew) but I feel as if there were others... but then, perhaps, it is just
    Message 1 of 17 , May 4 3:33 PM
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      So, yes, there is Jeanne d'Arc (who met a sad fate) and Mu Lan (whose story
      I never knew) but I feel as if there were others... but then, perhaps, it
      is just that I read LOTR early on, and Eowyn's tale was part of my literary
      foundation. Has anyone thought of others?

      Which brings me to the next point: It is sometimes said that Tolkien
      attempted, successfully I would say, to create a mythos for the English, of
      things that were and things that could have been. In some places people
      learn in school about things like the Iliad and the Odyssey, and cut their
      literary teeth on such ancient classics. That's not the case today, at
      least, not for any of the Yanks that I know. Maybe it's still true across
      the Pond, or in the more upscale private schools.

      So for me, Tolkien (and Kipling, and some of the stories of Robin Hood and
      Arthur) formed that base. I think some of the things that the old
      scholarship was meant to do was to familiarize us, not just with the plots
      and characters, but with themes and morals and what do you call them? The
      things that remain. And I think that Professor Tolkien gave us many of
      those things in LOTR. I never really thought about it until recent years,
      as I find out more and more of the "background" ... of the language history
      and the things that are sort of there, shadow-like, in the background.
      Like orcs, for example. And Gandalf.

      And then to my next thought, which will be anathema to some, so be
      prepared. I haven't read Order of the Phoenix yet and quite frankly am not
      about to read it tomorrow. I have too little reading time lately to delve
      into that tome. But aside from the editing that I hear it needs, OK it
      could have been tighter, what of the things that remain? That actions have
      consequences and that love endures and that sacrifices are not wasted and
      whatever and so on. I personally am dying to find out the connection
      between Hagrid and Dumbledore, and Snape and the Light and the Dark.

      I enjoyed Lewis many times, the Narnia books I mean. But I think we always
      need new. And perhaps it is possible that Rowling is the new for now?
      Lewis was new once. Tolkien was new once. I'm not saying Rowling is
      another Tolkien. Tad Williams would be closer, but even he is not the
      Professor.

      I would like to hear some more thoughts on Order of the Phoenix, if anyone
      is game. I remember earlier discussions but we can take it from another
      angle perhaps.

      Or the Dragonbone Chair books, although I've only read them once and of
      course that hardly counts as reading them! lol

      Elizabeth Apgar Triano
      lizziewriter@...
      amor vincit omnia
    • jamcconney@aol.com
      ... I never knew) but I feel as if there were others Well, there are all those Shakesperian comedy heroines--Rosalind, and whats-her-name in Twelfth Night and
      Message 2 of 17 , May 4 6:33 PM
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        >So, yes, there is Jeanne d'Arc (who met a sad fate) and Mu Lan (whose story
        I never knew) but I feel as if there were others

        Well, there are all those Shakesperian comedy heroines--Rosalind, and
        whats-her-name in Twelfth Night and so on who disguise themselves as boys. The
        androgynous image seems to fascinate us. I once saw an entire book--can't remember
        the title--devoted to modern films in which a women plays a man (notably Linda
        Hunt in _Year of Living Dangerously_), or pretends/disguises herself as a man
        (_Victor/Victoria_), and though rarer, the other way around too (_Some Like it
        Hot_). In fact such films are so common they currently have a
        name--'gender-bender.' If you mean strictly warrior women, there's not a few of those, too,
        especially in the sword-and-sorcery sub-genre.

        There's an interesting sidelight in _Descent into Hell_ where Peter Stanhope
        suggests that the director of his play "do as Shakespeare did and dress your
        female chorus in exquiste male costume, creating something more wonderful than
        either."

        Anne


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Larry Swain
        Well, there are Amazons in mythology, and there are also the shield-maidens of the Viking invasions. There is also the wonderful story of the
        Message 3 of 17 , May 4 8:30 PM
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          Well, there are Amazons in mythology, and there are also the "shield-maidens" of the Viking invasions. There is also the wonderful story of the Langobards.....The warriors of this tribe asked Frea who would win the battle they were to fight the next day. Frea told them to get their women dressed as warriors, and told the women to wear their long hair like it was a beard and to stand outside Odin's window. When Odin woke up in the morning, he asked "Who are these "long beards", or Langobards. Frea said that those whom Odin had named should be given victory in battle, and so they were.

          Lest we forget, there is also good ol' queen Boudicaea, think I spelled that wrong and Matilda, the Empress who though she never went to battle, did command her troops on occasion.

          Those are a few I can think off of the top of my head.

          Larry Swain




          > >So, yes, there is Jeanne d'Arc (who met a sad fate) and Mu Lan (whose story
          > I never knew) but I feel as if there were others
          >
          > Well, there are all those Shakesperian comedy heroines--Rosalind, and
          > whats-her-name in Twelfth Night and so on who disguise themselves as boys. The
          > androgynous image seems to fascinate us. I once saw an entire book--can't remember
          > the title--devoted to modern films in which a women plays a man (notably Linda
          > Hunt in _Year of Living Dangerously_), or pretends/disguises herself as a man
          > (_Victor/Victoria_), and though rarer, the other way around too (_Some Like it
          > Hot_). In fact such films are so common they currently have a
          > name--'gender-bender.' If you mean strictly warrior women, there's not a few of those, too,
          > especially in the sword-and-sorcery sub-genre.
          >
          > There's an interesting sidelight in _Descent into Hell_ where Peter Stanhope
          > suggests that the director of his play "do as Shakespeare did and dress your
          > female chorus in exquiste male costume, creating something more wonderful than
          > either."
          >
          > Anne
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >

          --
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          Web-based SMS services available at http://www.operamail.com
          From your mailbox to local or overseas cell phones.

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        • Stolzi
          i received the material below on a religious List. At the end of the fourth para, we see another woman leading troops in battle. Though it doesn t say what
          Message 4 of 17 , May 6 5:32 PM
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            i received the material below on a religious List. At the end of the fourth para, we see another woman leading troops in battle. Though it doesn't say what she was wearing at the time.

            The prophetess Deborah in the book of JUDGES (4th chapter) in the Bible, and her terrific "song" in Ch. 5, is another example of courage and leadership. And Jael in the same chapter is an example of... something (!)

            ======================================================
            Today, on May 1, the Church honors the holy memory of Saint Tamar
            of Georgia (around 1160-1213), a queen who demonstrated the
            spiritual strength of womanhood as a heroine of faith and virtue.

            Tamar was a descendant of the ancient Bagration dynasty that long
            ruled Georgia, an orthodox Christian country in the Caucasus
            Mountains between Europe and Asia. Born around 1160, she became
            co-ruler with her father, King George III, in 1178. She ruled in
            her own right as monarch after the death of her father in 1184.
            In 1185, she was wed in an arranged marriage to a Russian prince,
            George Bogolyubskiy. But the marriage, which ended up being
            childlessness, ended with the prince's banishment when he involved
            himself in court intrigues and stirred up unrest in Georgia. She
            then married a husband of her own choosing, the Georgian prince
            David Soslan (who proved to be a more faithful consort), in 1188.

            Tamar's reign (1184-1213) went down in history as being Georgia's
            "golden age." A woman of true faith and virtue, she took her
            God-given stewardship of government very seriously, in the spirit
            of Saint Paul the Apostle's teachings (Romans 13:1-7). She
            followed in the footsteps of her royal grandfather, King David III
            (nicknamed the "Builder" or "Restorer," also a saint of the
            Church), building on his initiative to make religion, education
            and culture vibrant forces binding together all Georgians. To
            this end, she sponsored the building of numerous churches,
            monastic communities and schools, where orthodox Christian culture
            was taught and developed. She also convened a council of Georgian
            bishops to set church life in Georgia aright and put it in good
            order.

            Tamar's efforts in this area were not just the expected actions of
            a "typical" medieval monarch. Georgia was surrounded by hostile
            Muslims bent on destroying its orthodox Christian heritage and
            forcing it to convert to Islam. Tamar worked hard to make sure
            that heritage survived and did not fall prey to heterodox enemies.
            When Muslim neighbors demanded that she submit to their rule and
            embrace Islam instead of orthodox Christianity, she took charge of
            her country's military forces herself -- a rather unusual thing in
            a day and age when women were considered weaker and less suited
            for military service than men. Believing it was her duty, as sole
            monarch, to share in the defense of her homeland and the hardships
            of her soldiers, she led them in combat herself. Under her
            leadership, the Georgians scored key defeats over the larger
            forces of Muslim Azerbaijanis and Seljuk Turks in 1193, 1195,
            1203, 1204 and 1206, ensuring the survival of orthodox Christian
            civilization in the region.

            Under Tamar's rule, Georgia reached a historic height as a
            regional power and experienced a major flowering in education and
            culture. A famous Georgian poet of the time, Shota Rustaveli,
            commemorated her queenship in his poem "The Knight in the
            Panther's Skin," an epic of Georgian literature. Because of her
            wise, just rule in peacetime and her bravery on the battlefield,
            her subjects addressed her as "king" as well as "queen." In fact,
            they called her "the king of kings and queen of queens" out of
            love for her. She has gone down in Georgian history as "Tamar the
            Great."

            Tamar spent the final years of her life at Georgia's Bardzia Cave
            Monastery. She lived in a humble nun's cell connected to the
            church by a window, so she could hear and pray along with the
            worship services offered there throughout the day. After a
            lifetime of service to her Church and her people, she peacefully
            fell asleep in the Lord there in 1213. After her death, her name
            was added to the calendar of saints by the Church, due to her
            personal example of heroic faith and virtue, as well as the
            people's veneration of her.

            Tamar's name (and its different forms, such as Tamara, Tamra or
            Thamar) comes from the Old Testament of the Bible. In its
            original Hebrew, it means "date palm tree." By dint of her faith
            and virtue in seeking and following God's will, Tamar lived up to
            her name in line with the words of Psalm 91:11-13 (Septuagint
            numbering): "The righteous will flourish like a palm tree... Those
            planted in the house of the Lord will blossom forth in the courts
            of our God."


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • dianejoy@earthlink.net
            WOW! I m impressed; we could use her help in the war on terrorism. What a terrific lady! I always admired Boudicea, but this woman makes even the Celtic
            Message 5 of 17 , May 7 8:35 AM
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              WOW! I'm impressed; we could use her help in the war on terrorism. What
              a terrific lady! I always admired Boudicea, but this woman makes even the
              Celtic Redhead look like a wimp. (Maybe Condaleeza Rice knows about her?
              Could be!) ---djb

              Original Message:
              -----------------
              From: Stolzi Stolzi@...
              Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 19:32:15 -0500
              To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Crossdressing heroines and other things that remain


              i received the material below on a religious List. At the end of the
              fourth para, we see another woman leading troops in battle. Though it
              doesn't say what she was wearing at the time.

              The prophetess Deborah in the book of JUDGES (4th chapter) in the Bible,
              and her terrific "song" in Ch. 5, is another example of courage and
              leadership. And Jael in the same chapter is an example of... something (!)

              ======================================================
              Today, on May 1, the Church honors the holy memory of Saint Tamar
              of Georgia (around 1160-1213), a queen who demonstrated the
              spiritual strength of womanhood as a heroine of faith and virtue.

              Tamar was a descendant of the ancient Bagration dynasty that long
              ruled Georgia, an orthodox Christian country in the Caucasus
              Mountains between Europe and Asia. Born around 1160, she became
              co-ruler with her father, King George III, in 1178. She ruled in
              her own right as monarch after the death of her father in 1184.
              In 1185, she was wed in an arranged marriage to a Russian prince,
              George Bogolyubskiy. But the marriage, which ended up being
              childlessness, ended with the prince's banishment when he involved
              himself in court intrigues and stirred up unrest in Georgia. She
              then married a husband of her own choosing, the Georgian prince
              David Soslan (who proved to be a more faithful consort), in 1188.

              Tamar's reign (1184-1213) went down in history as being Georgia's
              "golden age." A woman of true faith and virtue, she took her
              God-given stewardship of government very seriously, in the spirit
              of Saint Paul the Apostle's teachings (Romans 13:1-7). She
              followed in the footsteps of her royal grandfather, King David III
              (nicknamed the "Builder" or "Restorer," also a saint of the
              Church), building on his initiative to make religion, education
              and culture vibrant forces binding together all Georgians. To
              this end, she sponsored the building of numerous churches,
              monastic communities and schools, where orthodox Christian culture
              was taught and developed. She also convened a council of Georgian
              bishops to set church life in Georgia aright and put it in good
              order.

              Tamar's efforts in this area were not just the expected actions of
              a "typical" medieval monarch. Georgia was surrounded by hostile
              Muslims bent on destroying its orthodox Christian heritage and
              forcing it to convert to Islam. Tamar worked hard to make sure
              that heritage survived and did not fall prey to heterodox enemies.
              When Muslim neighbors demanded that she submit to their rule and
              embrace Islam instead of orthodox Christianity, she took charge of
              her country's military forces herself -- a rather unusual thing in
              a day and age when women were considered weaker and less suited
              for military service than men. Believing it was her duty, as sole
              monarch, to share in the defense of her homeland and the hardships
              of her soldiers, she led them in combat herself. Under her
              leadership, the Georgians scored key defeats over the larger
              forces of Muslim Azerbaijanis and Seljuk Turks in 1193, 1195,
              1203, 1204 and 1206, ensuring the survival of orthodox Christian
              civilization in the region.

              Under Tamar's rule, Georgia reached a historic height as a
              regional power and experienced a major flowering in education and
              culture. A famous Georgian poet of the time, Shota Rustaveli,
              commemorated her queenship in his poem "The Knight in the
              Panther's Skin," an epic of Georgian literature. Because of her
              wise, just rule in peacetime and her bravery on the battlefield,
              her subjects addressed her as "king" as well as "queen." In fact,
              they called her "the king of kings and queen of queens" out of
              love for her. She has gone down in Georgian history as "Tamar the
              Great."

              Tamar spent the final years of her life at Georgia's Bardzia Cave
              Monastery. She lived in a humble nun's cell connected to the
              church by a window, so she could hear and pray along with the
              worship services offered there throughout the day. After a
              lifetime of service to her Church and her people, she peacefully
              fell asleep in the Lord there in 1213. After her death, her name
              was added to the calendar of saints by the Church, due to her
              personal example of heroic faith and virtue, as well as the
              people's veneration of her.

              Tamar's name (and its different forms, such as Tamara, Tamra or
              Thamar) comes from the Old Testament of the Bible. In its
              original Hebrew, it means "date palm tree." By dint of her faith
              and virtue in seeking and following God's will, Tamar lived up to
              her name in line with the words of Psalm 91:11-13 (Septuagint
              numbering): "The righteous will flourish like a palm tree... Those
              planted in the house of the Lord will blossom forth in the courts
              of our God."


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




              The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
              Yahoo! Groups Links






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            • Stolzi
              I d love to read The Knight in the Panther s Skin, the poem about Queen Tamara, but it doesn t seem to be available on the Web. One could also mention
              Message 6 of 17 , May 7 10:59 AM
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                I'd love to read "The Knight in the Panther's Skin," the poem about Queen
                Tamara, but it doesn't seem to
                be available on the Web.

                One could also mention Cecelia Holland's novel THE ANGEL AND THE SWORD which
                supposedly comes from a tale of a Spanish princess who fought disguised as a
                knight in the days of the Viking invasions of Europe. i reviewed it a year
                or two back for MYTHPRINT.


                Diamond Proudbrook
              • alexeik@aol.com
                In a message dated 5/7/4 7:32:27 PM, Diamond wrote:
                Message 7 of 17 , May 7 12:42 PM
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                  In a message dated 5/7/4 7:32:27 PM, Diamond wrote:

                  <<I'd love to read "The Knight in the Panther's Skin," the poem about Queen

                  Tamara, but it doesn't seem to

                  be available on the Web.

                  >>

                  It's really more about the hero of the title than about Queen Tamara,
                  although it's supposed to take place during her reign. My main recollection of it is
                  that the hero spends an enormous amount of time weeping.
                  Alexei
                • Jack
                  ... http://sangha.net/countries/Georgia/shota.htm
                  Message 8 of 17 , May 7 12:54 PM
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                    >In a message dated 5/7/4 7:32:27 PM, Diamond wrote:
                    >
                    ><<I'd love to read "The Knight in the Panther's Skin," the poem about Queen
                    >
                    >Tamara, but it doesn't seem to
                    >
                    >be available on the Web.

                    http://sangha.net/countries/Georgia/shota.htm
                  • Stolzi
                    Oh... hang it... I thought -she- must be the Knight in the Panther s Skin. Anyway, thanks for the link! Diamond Proudbrook [Non-text portions of this message
                    Message 9 of 17 , May 7 1:59 PM
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                      Oh... hang it... I thought -she- must be the Knight in the Panther's Skin. Anyway, thanks for the link!

                      Diamond Proudbrook



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • alexeik@aol.com
                      In a message dated 5/7/4 9:35:45 PM, Diamond wrote:
                      Message 10 of 17 , May 8 11:52 AM
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                        In a message dated 5/7/4 9:35:45 PM, Diamond wrote:

                        <<Oh... hang it... I thought -she- must be the Knight in the Panther's Skin.
                        Anyway, thanks for the link!
                        >>

                        She *is*, actually, in the literary version (as opposed to the folk epic).
                        Alexei
                      • jamcconney@aol.com
                        Can whoever made the first post please give me the source of the story of St. Tamar? I accessed the Knight in the Panther Skin all right, but would like to
                        Message 11 of 17 , May 8 3:35 PM
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                          Can whoever made the first post please give me the source of the story of St.
                          Tamar? I accessed the 'Knight in the Panther Skin' all right, but would like
                          to know the historical source as well.

                          Thanks!
                          Anne


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Stolzi
                          Here s a historical wrap-up on St Tamar: http://www.sciencedaily.com/encyclopedia/tamar_of_georgia One might add that the Christian conversion of Georgia in
                          Message 12 of 17 , May 10 11:03 AM
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                            Here's a historical wrap-up on St Tamar:

                            http://www.sciencedaily.com/encyclopedia/tamar_of_georgia

                            One might add that the Christian conversion of Georgia in the first place is attributed to a woman, St. Nino (an ascetic and healer, not a warrior). Yes, Nino with an "o."

                            Diamond Proudbrook
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: jamcconney@...
                            To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 5:35 PM
                            Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Crossdressing heroines and other things that remain


                            Can whoever made the first post please give me the source of the story of St.
                            Tamar? I accessed the 'Knight in the Panther Skin' all right, but would like
                            to know the historical source as well.


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                            I am glad to see the name Tamar associated with some forces of good/power. Haven t had time to follow up on the actual tales yet, but until now the only
                            Message 13 of 17 , May 10 11:37 AM
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                              I am glad to see the name Tamar associated with some forces of good/power.
                              Haven't had time to follow up on the actual tales yet, but until now the
                              only association I had for that name was I think one of Noah's daughters,
                              who didn't have the greatest plotline associated with her IIRC. It's such
                              a cool name, too.

                              Boadicea rocks.

                              Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                              lizziewriter@...
                              amor vincit omnia
                            • juliet@firinn.org
                              ... The main Biblical Tamar is one of David s daughters. Her half-brother Amnon lusted after her and tricked her into his bedroom, where he raped her and
                              Message 14 of 17 , May 10 12:04 PM
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                                On Mon, May 10, 2004 at 02:37:43PM -0400, Elizabeth Apgar Triano wrote:
                                > I am glad to see the name Tamar associated with some forces of good/power.
                                > Haven't had time to follow up on the actual tales yet, but until now the
                                > only association I had for that name was I think one of Noah's daughters,
                                > who didn't have the greatest plotline associated with her IIRC. It's such
                                > a cool name, too.
                                >
                                The main Biblical Tamar is one of David's daughters. Her half-brother
                                Amnon lusted after her and tricked her into his bedroom, where he raped
                                her and rejected her. It wasn't her fault, but it certainly is an
                                unpleasant story.

                                Julie
                              • Carl F. Hostetter
                                At a Halloween party I attend years ago, a woman arrived dressed in a cow costume, but with a helmet and carrying a sword. She was Boadi-cow , you see. And
                                Message 15 of 17 , May 10 12:43 PM
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                                  At a Halloween party I attend years ago, a woman arrived dressed in a
                                  cow costume, but with a helmet and carrying a sword. She was
                                  "Boadi-cow", you see.

                                  And yes, she said that men always stared at her udders when talking to
                                  her...
                                • Matthew Winslow
                                  ... Don t forget Judah s daughter-in-law, Tamar, concerning whom Onan infamously spilled his seed. She also seduced her father-in-law to shame him. (Genesis
                                  Message 16 of 17 , May 10 1:50 PM
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                                    juliet@... [juliet@...] wrote:
                                    > The main Biblical Tamar is one of David's daughters. Her half-brother
                                    > Amnon lusted after her and tricked her into his bedroom, where he raped
                                    > her and rejected her. It wasn't her fault, but it certainly is an
                                    > unpleasant story.

                                    Don't forget Judah's daughter-in-law, Tamar, concerning whom Onan infamously
                                    spilled his seed. She also seduced her father-in-law to shame him. (Genesis
                                    38) The child of that union was Perez, who was one of Jesus's forefathers (cf,
                                    Ruth 4).

                                    --
                                    Matthew Winslow mwinslow@... http://x-real.firinn.org/
                                    "People say that life is the thing, but I prefer reading."
                                    --Logan Pearsall Smith
                                    Currently reading: Shivering World by Kathy Tyers
                                  • dianejoy@earthlink.net
                                    OUCH...how moo-ving. And Udder-worldly. ---djb ... From: Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@elvish.org Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 15:43:08 -0400 To:
                                    Message 17 of 17 , May 12 8:00 AM
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                                      OUCH...how moo-ving. And Udder-worldly. ---djb

                                      Original Message:
                                      -----------------
                                      From: Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@...
                                      Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 15:43:08 -0400
                                      To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Crossdressing heroines and other things that remain


                                      At a Halloween party I attend years ago, a woman arrived dressed in a
                                      cow costume, but with a helmet and carrying a sword. She was
                                      "Boadi-cow", you see.

                                      And yes, she said that men always stared at her udders when talking to
                                      her...




                                      The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                                      Yahoo! Groups Links






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