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RE: [mythsoc] Digest Number 1544

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  • Liz Milner
    How about Myth-soak. I like to think that we are steeping in it (myth, that is). -Liz
    Message 1 of 1 , Apr 2, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      How about "Myth-soak." I like to think that we are steeping in it (myth,
      that is).
      -Liz

      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com]
      > Sent: Friday, April 02, 2004 1:43 AM
      > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [mythsoc] Digest Number 1544
      >
      >
      >
      > There are 19 messages in this issue.
      >
      > Topics in this digest:
      >
      > 1. Re: Mythsoc itself
      > From: Lisa Deutsch Harrigan <lisa@...>
      > 2. Re: Digest Number 1543
      > From: odzer@...
      > 3. Re: Mythsoc itself
      > From: Bill <lunacy2@...>
      > 4. RE: Mythsoc itself
      > From: "Mari Dole" <dole.marianne@...>
      > 5. opps!
      > From: odzer@...
      > 6. RE: opps!
      > From: "dianejoy@..." <dianejoy@...>
      > 7. Re: Bizarre Tolkein Media Sighting of the week
      > From: WendellWag@...
      > 8. Re: opps!
      > From: WendellWag@...
      > 9. Re: opps!
      > From: Joshua Kronengold <mneme@...>
      > 10. Re: Mythsoc itself
      > From: alexeik@...
      > 11. BBC E-mail: Earth to be renamed as 'Gandalf'
      > From: Lisa Harrigan <lisa@...>
      > 12. RE: for all you Linux geeks
      > From: "Croft, Janet B." <jbcroft@...>
      > 13. Announcing the Grelvish Liguistical Fellowship
      > From: Carl F. Hostetter <Aelfwine@...>
      > 14. Re: BBC E-mail: Earth to be renamed as 'Gandalf'
      > From: David Bratman <dbratman@...>
      > 15. Re: Announcing the Grelvish Liguistical Fellowship
      > From: David Bratman <dbratman@...>
      > 16. Re: Announcing the Grelvish Liguistical Fellowship
      > From: Carl F. Hostetter <Aelfwine@...>
      > 17. Re: Re: Writers changing
      > From: Deidre <deidre@...>
      > 18. Re: BBC E-mail: Earth to be renamed as 'Gandalf'
      > From: Lisa Deutsch Harrigan <lisa@...>
      > 19. Re: Re: Writers changing
      > From: David Bratman <dbratman@...>
      >
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 1
      > Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 21:29:55 -0800
      > From: Lisa Deutsch Harrigan <lisa@...>
      > Subject: Re: Mythsoc itself
      >
      > I had always heard it as Myth - Sock in the early years, so that's how I
      > pronounce it. And I go back too many years.
      >
      > I'm afraid I probably called IngSoc - Ing Sosh if and when I thought
      > about it (which is almost never), so there you are.
      >
      > Socialism = Sosh. Society = Sock.
      >
      > Mythically yours,
      > Lisa
      >
      > Stolzi@... wrote:
      >
      > >How do you all pronounce it (out loud or in your minds), if you
      > happen to
      > >refer to this List? Or, in fact, do old Mythies ever call the
      > Society itself
      > >"the Mythsoc" to cut down on the many syllables in "Mythopoeic Society"?
      > >
      > >I say "Myth-Sosh," (long O, like in Oh) even though the first
      > syllable of
      > >"Society" is not pronounced "Sosh." ("Myth-Soss" would sound
      > funny to me)
      > >
      > >Another friend calls it "Myth-Sock," but that reminds me unpleasantly of
      > >Orwell's IngSoc. Which of course =might= have been pronounced
      > "Ing-Sosh" for
      > >"English Socialism."
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 2
      > Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 01:07:05 EST
      > From: odzer@...
      > Subject: Re: Digest Number 1543
      >
      >
      >
      > =========
      > John Potts
      > E-mail: jpotts@...
      > 617-969-4405 : Home
      > 617-504-7441 : Cell
      >
      > =========
      >
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 3
      > Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 01:07:35 -0500
      > From: Bill <lunacy2@...>
      > Subject: Re: Mythsoc itself
      >
      > I'm of the 'sosh" persuasion.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 4
      > Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 22:00:25 -0800
      > From: "Mari Dole" <dole.marianne@...>
      > Subject: RE: Mythsoc itself
      >
      > Well, when referring to the Society itself, I usually say The Mythopoeic
      > Society, but when referring to the list, I say mythsock, as that's how
      > my computer's screen-reader says it.
      >
      > Mari
      >
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Elizabeth Apgar Triano [mailto:lizziewriter@...]
      > Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 3:46 PM
      > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: RE: [mythsoc] Mythsoc itself
      >
      >
      > Because most people I know wouldn't have a clue, no matter how I
      > pronounce it, I call it "that lit list I'm on." But if I had to
      > pronounce it, yeah I'd say myth-sock. Let people ask if they are
      > inclined to care, is my philosophy.
      >
      > Lizzie Apgar Triano
      > lizziewriter@...
      > amor vincit omnia
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 5
      > Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 01:14:55 EST
      > From: odzer@...
      > Subject: opps!
      >
      > A cat wandering near the keyboard moment sent that last posting
      > out, empty
      > and unintended.
      > But as long as I have your attention, here is an item to shake
      > the head over.
      > I saw a book 'Rough Guide to Tolkien' the other day and flipping
      > through it
      > for a moment, found a page detailing 'parts you can skip over'.
      > Chiefly songs were designated, but it seemed to say most of Tom Bombadil
      > could be missed too I suppose I should look again to see if it is
      > really that
      > dreadful, but I couldn't bear to look at it more closely at the
      > time, but rather
      > turned the page with a shudder-and let the book fall unhappily
      > from my hands
      > soon after that.
      >
      > =========
      > John Potts
      > E-mail: jpotts@...
      > 617-969-4405 : Home
      > 617-504-7441 : Cell
      >
      > =========
      >
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 6
      > Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 10:42:12 -0500
      > From: "dianejoy@..." <dianejoy@...>
      > Subject: RE: opps!
      >
      > Arrggghh! Now, if they'd perform that same service (parts you can skip)
      > for Robert Jordan, I could see the value in it.
      >
      > I *like* the Tom Bombadil sequence. Bombadil's cheer and lightsome
      > behavior is a great tonic after all the dangers of Mirkwood. It's also
      > instructive: Tom can wrap something serious in cheer. He warns
      > them not to
      > go near the Barrow Downs, they get lost and he has to rescue them
      > *again.*
      > Most importantly, there's what happens with the Ring. You can't tell me
      > *that's* not important! I think I'd be suspicious of this book simply for
      > the title: "Rough Guide?" Er, no. I think not. ---djb
      >
      > Original Message:
      > -----------------
      > From: odzer@...
      > Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 01:14:55 EST
      > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [mythsoc] opps!
      >
      >
      > A cat wandering near the keyboard moment sent that last posting
      > out, empty
      > and unintended.
      > But as long as I have your attention, here is an item to shake the head
      > over.
      > I saw a book 'Rough Guide to Tolkien' the other day and flipping
      > through it
      > for a moment, found a page detailing 'parts you can skip over'.
      > Chiefly songs were designated, but it seemed to say most of Tom Bombadil
      > could be missed too I suppose I should look again to see if it is really
      > that
      > dreadful, but I couldn't bear to look at it more closely at the time, but
      > rather
      > turned the page with a shudder-and let the book fall unhappily from my
      > hands
      > soon after that.
      >
      > =========
      > John Potts
      > E-mail: jpotts@...
      > 617-969-4405 : Home
      > 617-504-7441 : Cell
      >
      > =========
      >
      >
      > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --------------------------------------------------------------------
      > mail2web - Check your email from the web at
      > http://mail2web.com/ .
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 7
      > Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 11:59:50 EST
      > From: WendellWag@...
      > Subject: Re: Bizarre Tolkein Media Sighting of the week
      >
      > In a message dated 3/31/2004 2:34:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,
      > jbcroft@...
      > writes:
      >
      > > His answer: "Two words: Jack Reacher. Reacher is a drifter and a loner
      > > with a strong sense of justice. He shows up, he acts, he moves on.
      > > He's the type of hero who has a long literary history. Robin Hood, the
      > > Lone Ranger, Aragorn from The Lord of the Rings, Jack Reacher - they're
      > > all part of the same heroic family. Reacher just ratchets it up a notch.
      > > Maybe more than a notch."
      > >
      >
      > My first thought of a better comparison would be Shane from the
      > movie of that
      > name. Robin Hood, the Lone Ranger and Aragorn are all bad
      > examples of the
      > loner hero. The Lone Ranger has a faithful Indian companion.
      > Robin Hood has a
      > band of merry men. Aragorn has an entire kingdom. Those
      > comparisons aren't
      > just stretching a comparison. They're simply bad examples.
      >
      > Wendell Wagner
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 8
      > Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 11:56:00 EST
      > From: WendellWag@...
      > Subject: Re: opps!
      >
      > In a message dated 4/1/2004 1:16:02 AM Eastern Standard Time,
      > odzer@...
      > writes:
      >
      > > I saw a book 'Rough Guide to Tolkien' the other day and
      > flipping through it
      > >
      > > for a moment, found a page detailing 'parts you can skip over'.
      >
      > I think that if someone thought that there are large parts of the
      > book that
      > can be skipped over, that person would do better to not write a
      > guidebook to
      > _The Lord of the Rings_ at all. I just flipped through _The
      > Rough Guide to
      > Tolkien_ (which I bought a while ago but hadn't had time to look
      > through yet), and
      > it strikes me as a good example of the movies infecting any
      > response to the
      > book. The guidebook seems to be as much about the movies as
      > about the book.
      >
      > Wendell Wagner
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 9
      > Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 11:19:06 -0600
      > From: Joshua Kronengold <mneme@...>
      > Subject: Re: opps!
      >
      > WendellWag@... writes:
      > >I think that if someone thought that there are large parts of
      > the book that
      > >can be skipped over, that person would do better to not write a
      > guidebook to
      > >...
      > >book. The guidebook seems to be as much about the movies as
      > about the book.
      >
      > Though there -are- parts of the movies that can be skipped over,
      > easily! :)
      >
      > --
      > Joshua Kronengold (mneme@...) "I've been teaching |\
      > _,,,--,,_ ,)
      > --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`'
      > -, ;-;;'
      > /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- )
      > )-,_ ) /\
      > /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos
      > '---''(_/--' (_/-'
      >
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 10
      > Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 12:28:17 EST
      > From: alexeik@...
      > Subject: Re: Mythsoc itself
      >
      >
      > In a message dated 3/31/4 11:17:55 PM, Diamond Proudbrook wrote:
      >
      > <<Another friend calls it "Myth-Sock," but that reminds me
      > unpleasantly of
      > Orwell's IngSoc. Which of course =might= have been pronounced
      > "Ing-Sosh" for
      > "English Socialism."
      > >>
      >
      > Mythopoeic Socialism? Now that would be an interesting concept to explore!
      > :-)
      > Alexei
      >
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 11
      > Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 20:12 +0000
      > From: Lisa Harrigan <lisa@...>
      > Subject: BBC E-mail: Earth to be renamed as 'Gandalf'
      >
      > Lisa Harrigan saw this story on CBBC Newsround Online and thought
      > you should see it.
      >
      > To get to the story click on the link below. If it doesn't work
      > cut and paste the link into your browser.
      >
      >
      > ------------
      > Message:
      >
      > A very British April Fool!
      > Read, and then we should discuss did they get the names right?
      > Mythically yours,
      > Lisa
      >
      >
      > ------------
      >
      > *Earth to be renamed as 'Gandalf'*
      > <http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/cbbcnews/hi/sci_tech/newsid_3587
      > 000/3587189.stm>
      >
      > Astronomers have decided to rename the planets of the Solar System
      > after characters from Lord of the Rings.
      >
      >
      >
      > Disclaimer: The BBC is not responsible for the content of this
      > e-mail, and anything said in this e-mail does not necessarily
      > reflect the BBC's views.
      >
      > If you don't wish to receive such mails in the future, please
      > e-mail webmasters@... making sure you include the following text:
      > I do not want to receive "E-mail a friend" mailings.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 12
      > Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 14:26:15 -0600
      > From: "Croft, Janet B." <jbcroft@...>
      > Subject: RE: for all you Linux geeks
      >
      > Funny! This one goes on the office door for a while.
      >
      > I enjoyed your "Tolkien in the Land of the Heroes," and I hope you've
      > seen our call for papers for Mythcon35 at mythsoc.org. It would be
      > great to see you there!
      >
      > Janet Brennan Croft
      >
      > Head of Access Services
      >
      > University of Oklahoma
      >
      > Bizzell Library NW104
      >
      > Norman OK 73019
      >
      > 405-325-1918
      >
      > fax 405-325-7618
      >
      > jbcroft@...
      >
      > http://libraries.ou.edu/
      >
      > http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/C/Janet.B.Croft-1/
      >
      > -----------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      > "A scholar is just a library's way of making another library." - Daniel
      > Dennett
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: misscubbidge [mailto:acp@...]
      > Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 11:48 AM
      > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [mythsoc] for all you Linux geeks
      >
      > <delurking>
      >
      > Since we're sharing LOTR-themed cartoons, have a look at this one:
      > http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20040324&mode=classic
      >
      > Cheers,
      > Anne Petty
      >
      >
      >
      > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 13
      > Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 15:24:07 -0500
      > From: Carl F. Hostetter <Aelfwine@...>
      > Subject: Announcing the Grelvish Liguistical Fellowship
      >
      > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE -- Crofton, Maryland. April 1, 2004
      >
      > In a packed multi-media press event, Carl Hostetter, head of the former
      > Elvish Linguistic Fellowship, stunned the world today by announcing
      > that he has dissolved the E.L.F., the erstwhile international
      > organization devoted to the scholarly study of the invented languages
      > of J.R.R. Tolkien.
      >
      > In its place, Hostetter revealed the immediate formation of the
      > Grelvish Linguistical Fellowship, which he described as instead
      > dedicated to "making up pretend fairy languages".
      >
      > "The whole scholarly thing just wasn't working out," Hostetter noted.
      > "Studying Tolkien's writings is, like, really hard and stuff, and kind
      > of a drag. I mean, all people really wanna do is talk in Elvish. Like
      > Legolas. He's really cool."
      >
      > "But Tolkien just couldn't ever make up his mind!" Hostetter continued.
      > "And, I mean, he had, like, 50 years to make Elvish usable, so it's not
      > like he didn't have his chance! And come on, enough is enough! These
      > Grelvish folks did the job in, like, just a few months! So how great
      > can Tolkien be, anyways? We're moving on to the real thing."
      >
      > In unveiling the G.L.F., Hostetter also introduced the complete grammar
      > of Grelvish that he had doodled out on a napkin while waiting to come
      > to the podium. "Tolkien wasted 50 years of his life, gallons and
      > gallons of ink, and thousands of sheets of paper working out the
      > 'history' and 'phonology' of languages that no one can even speak! I
      > mean, what language really _needs_ vowel affection, lenition, and
      > strong past tenses, anyways?" he asked. "We've got your entire language
      > right here, and on a stylish line of GLF t-shirts, post cards, coffee
      > mugs, frisbees, and mouse pads. And we've pared it down to just 12
      > rules -- 4 less than Esperanto! In your face, Zamenhof!", he intoned.
      >
      > The move was also accompanied by Hostetter's announcement of a
      > widely-anticipated G.L.F-branded tattoo-and-wedding-band-inscription
      > franchise of mall shops, to be called "Iolf a' Nûd" (Elvish for "Brand
      > 'n' Bond").
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 14
      > Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 12:32:56 -0800
      > From: David Bratman <dbratman@...>
      > Subject: Re: BBC E-mail: Earth to be renamed as 'Gandalf'
      >
      > >Astronomers have decided to rename the planets of the Solar System
      > >after characters from Lord of the Rings.
      >
      > What have they got against Sam?
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 15
      > Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 12:54:13 -0800
      > From: David Bratman <dbratman@...>
      > Subject: Re: Announcing the Grelvish Liguistical Fellowship
      >
      > At 03:24 PM 4/1/2004 -0500, Carl F. Hostetter wrote:
      > >These Grelvish folks did the job in, like, just a few months!
      >
      > This combination of quick work and popularity prompts me to ask, with the
      > fear of going too off-topic: how complex and/or believable a language is
      > Klingon, anyway?
      >
      > - David Bratman
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > So how great
      > >can Tolkien be, anyways? We're moving on to the real thing."
      > >
      > >In unveiling the G.L.F., Hostetter also introduced the complete grammar
      > >of Grelvish that he had doodled out on a napkin while waiting to come
      > >to the podium. "Tolkien wasted 50 years of his life, gallons and
      > >gallons of ink, and thousands of sheets of paper working out the
      > >'history' and 'phonology' of languages that no one can even speak! I
      > >mean, what language really _needs_ vowel affection, lenition, and
      > >strong past tenses, anyways?" he asked. "We've got your entire language
      > >right here, and on a stylish line of GLF t-shirts, post cards, coffee
      > >mugs, frisbees, and mouse pads. And we've pared it down to just 12
      > >rules -- 4 less than Esperanto! In your face, Zamenhof!", he intoned.
      > >
      > >The move was also accompanied by Hostetter's announcement of a
      > >widely-anticipated G.L.F-branded tattoo-and-wedding-band-inscription
      > >franchise of mall shops, to be called "Iolf a' Nûd" (Elvish for "Brand
      > >'n' Bond").
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
      > >Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 16
      > Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 16:40:50 -0500
      > From: Carl F. Hostetter <Aelfwine@...>
      > Subject: Re: Announcing the Grelvish Liguistical Fellowship
      >
      > Actually, for what it is intended to be (namely, a single fictional
      > language for use in a television show, and thus inherently
      > utilitarian), Klingon seems to be quite believable. Devoid in
      > linguistic history and phonological variation, and hampered with an
      > unrealistic and confusing orthography, but still believable.
      >
      > The difference between Tolkien's languages and Klingon being, that
      > Tolkien's languages were created for purely aesthetic, not utilitarian,
      > purposes, and were intended to appear to have a long history of
      > development and relationship among them. Achieving these goals consumed
      > Tolkien's attention on his languages, never any goal of making "usable"
      > languages.
      >
      > Carl
      >
      >
      > On Apr 1, 2004, at 3:54 PM, David Bratman wrote:
      >
      > > This combination of quick work and popularity prompts me to ask, with
      > > the fear of going too off-topic: how complex and/or believable a
      > > language is Klingon, anyway?
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 17
      > Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:56:37 -0500
      > From: Deidre <deidre@...>
      > Subject: Re: Re: Writers changing
      >
      > At 05:07 AM 4/1/04 +0000, you wrote:
      > >Message: 14
      > > Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 16:51:57 -0500
      > > From: "Christine Howlett" <chowlett@...>
      > >Subject: Re: Writers changing
      > >
      > >Changing voice in the middle of a series is disconcerting, but an author
      > >surely ought to be able to try on new voices and styles in
      > different books.
      >
      > But what about when an author changes voice in the middle of a
      > story? Case
      > in point: David Brin's _The Practice Effect_ . About halfway through,
      > something began to bother me--something about the authorial voice had
      > changed. Never was able to identify it. However, it could have had mostly
      > something to do with what I perceived as lack of editing or at least
      > copy-editing in the second half of the novel. I haven't read it since it
      > was published, but I was quite perturbed by the number of spelling
      > mistakes, errors in grammar, poor choices in punctuation, etc.,
      > to wish not
      > to read the book again. :( And at the time, I rather enjoyed his SF, and
      > looked forward to seeing what he could do with fantasy, so to speak.
      >
      > A side note: At a con in the 80s, saw Steve Burst "win" over Brin in a
      > panel topic of which was better, SF or Fantasy. <g>
      >
      > Deidre
      >
      > PS I say 'myth-sock' myself.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 18
      > Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:45:43 -0800
      > From: Lisa Deutsch Harrigan <lisa@...>
      > Subject: Re: BBC E-mail: Earth to be renamed as 'Gandalf'
      >
      > I think Saturn should be named Sauron. It's a ring thing.
      >
      > Mythically yours,
      > Lisa
      >
      >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 19
      > Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 17:15:20 -0800
      > From: David Bratman <dbratman@...>
      > Subject: Re: Re: Writers changing
      >
      > At 04:56 PM 4/1/2004 -0500, Deidre wrote:
      >
      > >But what about when an author changes voice in the middle of a
      > story? Case
      > >in point:
      >
      > _The Lord of the Rings_, somewhere around chapter 9.
      >
      > _The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn_, somewhere around chapter 23.
      >
      > It's not an uncommon problem.
      >
      > - David Bratman
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      >
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