Re: [mythsoc] Re: Re: Spotty Review
- At 07:21 AM 2/1/2004 -0600, Trudy wrote:
>No, if that had been necessary for the Ring's destruction, Tolkien wouldNo, there's a fundamental difference between self-sacrifice and suicide.
>have considered it self-sacrifice, not suicide. It would be akin to a
>soldier throwing himself on a hand grenade to save others. "No greater
Doing something noble in the full expectation that you'll be killed is one
thing; killing yourself in the full expectation that the result will be
noble is quite another. Part of the difference lies in the fact that in
both cases you could be wrong. The soldiers of Rohan believe they will
probably be killed both at Helm's Deep and at the Pelennor Fields: but in
both cases some survive.
>If Frodo had chosen to jump in even though it wasn't necessary (say, becauseBut how would you know for sure whether it was necessary or not? This is
>he felt he couldn't live without the Ring), that would be a completely
>different situation--and suicide.
what I find so artificial about moral dilemma problems of the "You have
water for two people for two days and you're three days walk from the
nearest oasis" type. In the real world, these figures would all be guesses
or rough approximations, and the resulting uncertainty of whether a
self-sacrifice would be either necessary or sufficient would play an
irreducable role in the moral situation.
>Tolkien gets into some speculation himself, on what might have happened ifIt is, but look carefully at what Tolkien writes. (It's on page 330.)
>Gollum hadn't been present. One possibility he mentions is that Frodo might
>have been able to recover himself--for a moment--after the Ring's takeover,
>and realizing that he wasn't able to throw the Ring into the fire would have
>jumped in with it. This wasn't necessary because Gollum was
>present--because of the mercy of Bilbo, Frodo and, finally, Sam. [I don't
>have the Letters at hand, but IIRC it's in the later part of letter #246.]
"Frodo too would then probably, if not attacked, have had to take the same
way: cast himself with the Ring into the abyss."
Two things about this:
1) Note the "probably": Tolkien has in fact written himself into a corner
here, and there is no way out that he is comfortable with. Remember that
these are unsent drafts of a letter: Tolkien is thinking aloud as he writes.
2) Tolkien writes "the same way": the same way as what? Answer, the same
way as Gollum, described in the previous paragraph. And look at what he
says of what Gollum would have done with the Ring had he not fallen: "I
think that in some queer twisted and pitiable way Gollum would have tried
(not maybe with conscious design) to satisfy both [his loyalty to Frodo and
his lust for the Ring]. ... 'Possession' satisfied, I think he would then
have sacrificed himself for Frodo's sake and have _voluntarily_ cast
himself into the fiery abyss."
Note the wording here:
"I think." Tolkien is still not sure, and not comfortable with any of this.
"Some queer twisted and pitiable way." This is what Tolkien thinks of
suicide as a self-sacrifice: he understands, but he does not approve.
- David Bratman