Re: [mythsoc] Re: spotty review
- At 12:17 PM 1/22/2004 +0000, Marc wrote:
>Even now, after LOTR'sWait and see. I hear that Stephen R. Donaldson is in the pipeline. I have
>success, Hollywood doesn't seem to be green-lighting too many serious
>projects based on fantasy novels.
to say I'm a bit nervous about that one. The books were tedious enough.
>Instead, the Hollywood lesson learned fromSure, and some of them could easily be big-budget-epic-ancient-medieval-war
>LOTR seems to be make more big budget epic ancient/medieval war
fantasies. Most of the post-Tolkien epic fantasies better fit those
adjectives than LOTR does.
>Still, I think thereAs specialized studies, sure. But those are professedly looks at limited
>is something to the point that the invented world of Middle Earth is
>somewhat larger than just the tale that Tolkien told and open to a
>lot of different types of treatments. I think its OK for someone to
>do a work about the geography of middle earth or the songs of middle
>earth or even the epic battle & monster fights of middle earth.
aspects of the book. Jackson wasn't professing that kind of view of
Tolkien any more than he was professing a parodical Sauron's-eye view of
>> Sure, it's there, but it's not the only thing that's there. ToYes, sufficiently great art can break any rules. But the operative words
>focus on it
>> is to distort the whole. Hatchet journalists know this very well:
>As do great artists. You seem to be willing to make exceptions if
>you think the work is of sufficient quality.
are "sufficiently great." Jackson's films aren't even ready to dream of
that kind of greatness.
> Many people were perplexed by the scene of SamWell, now, that's an interesting explanation of that peculiar scene, but I
>> nearly drowning at the end of the first movie. This is actually
>> from the book, but by including it at full length where so many
>> things were cut, Jackson placed a strange and unwarranted emphasis
>It does make a good symmetry with the invented scene of Sam pulling
>up Frodo from the edge at the end.
wish I hadn't had to wait two years to find out why it was there.
>I've often thought that Frodo sacrificing himself at Mt.No, because that would be suicide, and completely antithetical to Tolkien's
>Doom to destroy the ring would be a plausible ending for LOTR.
morality. Even Gollum doesn't commit suicide, though in the drafts Tolkien
does consider the idea of having Gollum do so.
>You keep picking on folk tales.Of course I do, because they're the clearest example of a point I'm trying
to make. If I'm to say that I approve of adaptations at all, I must point
to the adaptations I most approve of.
>However, a lot of writers includingTaking story _elements_ from older authors and writing your own story is a
>Tolkien take stories or story elements from epics, sagas, romances,
>histories, even older novels that are quite accomplished literary
>works on their own. Many of these works have a particular nature
>that more modern authors change.
completely different thing from a film adaptation of a modern novel with
the original author's name on it. I also made allowances for retellings of
very old stories. This, too, is not what happened to Tolkien.
- David Bratman
- --- In email@example.com, "marcfcs" <marcfcs@a...> wrote:
> --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, David Bratman <dbratman@e...> wrote:has,
> > But neither of these describe Thomas Covenant. He is not
> uninteresting, he
> > is positively annoying. Nor is he merely detestable, but a
> > person one is supposed to identify with (to an extent) as a
> > character, without - at least as far as I read, three long weary
> books of
> > it - having a turning point or apotheosis of sympathy as Lear
> > getting his due comeuppance as Richard III does.
> Two points: 1) I don't think you are supposed to identify with
> Covenant. I think Donaldson goes out of his way to block you from
> identifying with him(though as I said before, I know nothing about
> his motivations beyond what is in the books, so I could be
> 2) I don't have a problem with Covenant not getting his
> or having a turning point and learning some deep lesson aboutlife.
> The universe is an imperfect place. I don't mind if fictionexpectations
> reflects that sometimes. I like it when a work subverts
> and does not unfold in a traditional way. It doesn't bother me ifan
> anti-hero character doesn't have a heart of gold and doesn't growone
> later (and isn't punished for that in some act of cosmic justice bykind
> the author).
> > The problem with this moment is not the sentiment - for surely an
> > king no more intends to outlive his son and heir than a modern
> Oprah guest
> > does - but the phrasing and style with which it is said.
> The phrasing is the worst part and the one that is most relevant to
> me for enjoying the movie. However, the sentiment is wrong as well
> as an adaptation of Tolkien since this clearly goes against the
> of "men of the north" heroic ethos that Tolkien gives to Rohan.that
> Lamenting the death of a son is 1 thing. Saying no father should
> outlive their children is not the right sentiment for a culture
> honors noble death more than survival at any costs. This changesa
> culture that Tolkien meant to be a little alien to his audience andexplained
> makes it more like modern people in medieval clothing. Can anyone
> imagine Beowulf or Sigurd saying such a thing, however you want to
> phrase it? Not that Tolkien doesn't modernize those types of
> characters a little, but not that much.
> Finally, as far as the whole post-Romantic thing goes, I've
> my point and you clearly understand it now. We could probablyargue
> endlessly about the exact usage of the specific words I chose and Idiscussion
> doubt it would be of interest to anyone else reading this
> group. So, lets just let it drop.Hi I'm (dmsherwood53@...) & I'm breaking into a conversation
where the protagonists have agrred to let it drop wvery uncivilised
If your still listening coupla points:
I agree theris a post-romantic sensibility.
I think this and its opposite the romantic sensibility ties deeply
intowhat a person is; wants to be; fears being; all thaT shimola
I think ROMANCES using the term v widely tie into this more deeply
than ordinary books tho its part of why anybody cares a damn about any
art at all.
Its a mistake to talk about a romance as tho it was a bad attempt to
do what an ant-romance was doing and vice-versa-which was mostly what
you guys were doing- altho take this to extremes and we all end us
reading our own diaries and never confrunting another POV (Which
Lewis thought the reason why there are booksat all)
PS Have you readthe NEW WEIRD fiction goes much further into anti-
romantic vision than Donaldson eg a;lmost any CHINA MEILVILLE's books