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TTT - Extended DVD

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  • Stolzi@aol.com
    I have received two communique s concerning the extended DVD of TTT, with the statement that Eowyn is seen/heard singing a dirge for Theodred. One person
    Message 1 of 5 , Dec 2, 2003
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      I have received two communique's concerning the extended DVD of TTT, with the
      statement that Eowyn is seen/heard singing a dirge for Theodred. One person
      called it "positively Beowulfian" and another said that it was "in one of
      Tolkien's languages."

      Does anyone here know anything about this? I don't seem to recall Tolkien
      ever developing the Rohirric as he did his other languages such as Quenya or
      Dwarvish. Under his "translation of languages" scheme, doesn't Rohirric bear the
      same relation to Westron as Old English does to Modern English? IOW, could
      this dirge actually be in Old English?
      It's been suggested that some lines were actually borrowed from BEOWULF, but
      at this time I don't recall BEOWULF including a dirge - does it?

      Can one of you linguistic types out there enlighten me?

      Diamond Proudbrook


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jack
      It s been suggested that some lines were actually borrowed from BEOWULF, but at this time I don t recall BEOWULF including a dirge - does it? Not precisely...
      Message 2 of 5 , Dec 2, 2003
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        It's been suggested that some lines were actually borrowed from BEOWULF, but
        at this time I don't recall BEOWULF including a dirge - does it?

        Not precisely...

         From the verse translation by Alan Sullivan & Tim Murphy

         

        Thus the terrible    tidings were told,
        and the teller had not   mistaken the truth.
        The warriors all rose    and woefully went
        to look on the wonder    with welling tears.
        They found on the sand    under Earnanaesse
        their lifeless lord    laid there to rest,
        beloved giver    of gifts and gold rings,
        the war-king come   at the close of his days
        to a marvelous death.    At first the monster
        commanded their gaze:   grim on the ground
        across from the king,   the creature had crumpled,
        scaly and scorched,   a fearsome fire-drake
        fifty feet long.    He would fly no more,
        free in the darkness,    nor drop to his den
        at the break of dawn.    Death held the dragon;
        he never would coil   in his cavern again.
        Beyond the serpent    stood flagons and jars,
        plated flatware    and priceless swords
        rotting in ruin,    etched out with rust.
        These riches had rested    in Earth¹s embrace
        for a thousand winters,    the heritage held
        by warders of old,    spell-enwoven
        and toilfully tombed    that none might touch them,
        unless God Himself,    granter of grace,
        true Lord of glory,    allotted release
        to one of His choosing    and opened the hoard.
        ~
        It little profited    him who had wrongfully
        hidden the hand-wrought    wealth within walls.
        He payment was scant    for slaying the one
        with courage to claim it:    the kill was quickly
        and harshly requited.    So the kingly
        may come to strange ends    when their strength is spent
        and time meted out.    They may not remain
        as men among kin,    mirthful with mead.
        Beowulf goaded    the gold¹s guardian,
        raised up the wrath,    not reckoning whether
        his death-day had dawned,    not knowing the doom
        solemnly sworn    by princes who placed
        their hoard in that hollow:    the thief who held it
        would fall before idols,    forge himself hell-bonds,
        waste in torment    for touching the treasure.
        He failed to consider    more fully and sooner
        who rightfully owned    such awesome riches.
        ~
        So spoke Wiglaf,    son of Weostan:
        ³By the whim of one man,    many warriors
        sometimes may suffer,    as here has happened.
        No means were at hand    to move my master;
        no counsel could sway    the kingdom¹s keeper
        never to trouble    the treasure¹s taker,
        but leave him lying     where long he had hidden,
        walled with his wealth    until the world¹s ending.
        He kept to his course,    uncovered the hoard.
        Fate was too strongly    forcing him hither.
        I have entered that hall,    beheld everything
        golden within,    though none too glad
        for the opening offered    under its archway.
        In haste I heaved    much from the hoard,
        and a mighty burden    I bore from the barrow
        straight to my sovereign.    He still was alive.
        His wits were clear;    his words came quickly.
        In anguish, the Ancient    asked that I say
        he bade you to build    a barrow for him
        befitting the deeds    of a fallen friend.
        You shall heap it high    over his ashes,
        since he was the world¹s    worthiest warrior,
        famed far and wide    for the wealth of his fortress.
        ~
        ³Now let us hurry    hence to the hoard.
        For a second time    I shall see that splendor
        under the cliff-wall,    those wonders of craftwork.
        Come, I shall take you    close to the trove,
        where you may behold    heaps of broad gold.
        Then let a bier     be readied to bear
        our beloved lord    to his long dwelling
        under the watch    of the World¹s Warden.²
        ~
        Then Weostan¹s heir    ordered the earls,
        heads of houses    and fief holders,
        to fetch firewood    fit for the folk-leader¹s
        funeral pyre.    ³Flames shall now flare,
        feed on the flesh    and fade into darkness,
        an ending for him    who often endured
        the iron showers    shot over shield-walls
        when string-driven storms    of arrows arose
        with feathered fins    to steer them in flight
        and barbed arrowheads    eager to bite.²
        ~
        Wisely Wiglaf,    son of Weostan,
        summoned the seven    most steadfast thanes.
        They went in together,    eight earls entering
        under the evil    arch of the earth-house
        with one man bearing    a blazing torch.
        No lot was cast    to learn which liege-man
        would plunder the loot    lying unguarded,
        as each searcher    could see for himself;
        yet none was unhappy    to hurry that hoard
        out into daylight.    They heaved the dragon
        over the sea-cliff     where surges seized him:
        the treasure¹s keeper    was caught by the tide.
        Then they filled a wain    with filigreed gold
        and untold treasures;    and they carried the king,
        their hoary-haired warlord,    to Hronesnaesse.
        ~
      • David S. Bratman
        I m neither a linguistics expert, nor have I seen the extended TT yet. But I can say: 1) For most purposes, Tolkien s Rohirric _is_ Old English. There s
        Message 3 of 5 , Dec 2, 2003
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          I'm neither a linguistics expert, nor have I seen the extended TT yet. But
          I can say:

          1) For most purposes, Tolkien's "Rohirric" _is_ Old English. There's
          something like four words of "genuine" Rohirric hiding in the appendices;
          everything you find in the text of the book itself, and in most of the
          appendices, is the Mercian dialect of Old English, which is "translated"
          Rohirric the same way that the default English is "translated" Common Speech.

          2) _Beowulf_ ends with the death and funeral of its protagonist, including
          funerary speeches. If you want to call that a dirge, go ahead.

          - David Bratman


          At 02:45 PM 12/2/2003 , Stolzi@... wrote:
          >I have received two communique's concerning the extended DVD of TTT, with the
          >statement that Eowyn is seen/heard singing a dirge for Theodred. One person
          >called it "positively Beowulfian" and another said that it was "in one of
          >Tolkien's languages."
          >
          >Does anyone here know anything about this? I don't seem to recall Tolkien
          >ever developing the Rohirric as he did his other languages such as Quenya or
          >Dwarvish. Under his "translation of languages" scheme, doesn't Rohirric
          >bear the
          >same relation to Westron as Old English does to Modern English? IOW, could
          >this dirge actually be in Old English?
          >It's been suggested that some lines were actually borrowed from BEOWULF, but
          >at this time I don't recall BEOWULF including a dirge - does it?
          >
          >Can one of you linguistic types out there enlighten me?
        • Stolzi@aol.com
          In a message dated 12/2/2003 10:42:24 PM Central Standard Time, ... Thank you David, that s the point I was trying to make, expressed clearly by you. ...
          Message 4 of 5 , Dec 3, 2003
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            In a message dated 12/2/2003 10:42:24 PM Central Standard Time,
            dbratman@... writes:

            >the Mercian dialect of Old English, which is "translated"
            >Rohirric the same way that the default English is "translated" Common Speech.


            Thank you David, that's the point I was trying to make, expressed clearly by
            you.

            >2) _Beowulf_ ends with the death and funeral of its protagonist, including
            >funerary speeches. If you want to call that a dirge, go ahead.

            Certainly there's a funeral, but hmm, I'd have to look up the speeches. I
            didn't think anyone comes on and actually says something like, e.g., the eulogy
            to Lancelot in Malory (who says it? Sir Bedivere I think?)

            Thanks, Susan, for your

            "From watching the extras on the TTTX DVD, I believe the lyrics actually are
            Old English. At one point they play a clip of the dirge with OE subtitles
            and
            a Modern English translation. My OE is far too rusty for me to be able to
            tell if the lines are from Beowulf or not, though."

            If you have the chance to note down some of the Modern English lines, I cd
            compare them with my electronic text of BEOWULF (currently the only form in
            which I own the poem).

            Anyway, we've established a lot more than I knew when I started, which is
            pleasing. Thanks, people.

            Diamond Proudbrook


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Stolzi@aol.com
            Rented it today. Will report. Diamond Proudbrook [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            Message 5 of 5 , Dec 4, 2003
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              Rented it today. Will report.




              Diamond Proudbrook


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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