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Re: Re: [mythsoc] Heaney's Beowulf or someone's Hiawatha?

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  • alexeik@aol.com
    In a message dated 11/29/3 6:26:25 PM, Anne wrote:
    Message 1 of 17 , Dec 1, 2003
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      In a message dated 11/29/3 6:26:25 PM, Anne wrote:

      <<Actually Hiawatha was a real person and one of the
      instigators of the Iroqouis Federation (Confederation? Convention?) anyway it
      was
      an attempt to unite the various tribes and some historians believe it had
      influence on the writers of the U.S. Constitution.
      >>

      And of course the historical Hiawatha had absolutely nothing to do with the
      character in Longfellow's poem. Longfellow based his story on Ojibwe mythology
      (quite unrelated to anything Iroquois), where the character he referred to as
      "Hiawatha" is actually called Wenabozho. Longfellow liked the Iroquois name
      better, apparently, and arbitrarily substituted it for the original name.
      Alexei
    • David S. Bratman
      ... This meter sounds a lot better in Finnish than it does in English, by the way. ... In that, Longfellow showed good taste. - David Bratman
      Message 2 of 17 , Dec 2, 2003
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        At 12:09 PM 11/29/2003 , Carl F. Hostetter wrote:
        >Be it noted that "Hiawatha" is (approximately, and deliberately) in the
        >meter of the Finnish national epic, _Kalevala_, that was a huge
        >influence on Tolkien's mythology (underlying, _inter alia_, the story
        >of Túrin).

        This meter sounds a lot better in Finnish than it does in English, by the way.


        At 10:05 AM 12/1/2003 , alexeik@... wrote:
        >Longfellow based his story on Ojibwe mythology
        >(quite unrelated to anything Iroquois), where the character he referred to as
        >"Hiawatha" is actually called Wenabozho. Longfellow liked the Iroquois name
        >better, apparently, and arbitrarily substituted it for the original name.

        In that, Longfellow showed good taste.

        - David Bratman
      • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
        David said a couple of things: 1) This meter sounds a lot better in Finnish than it does in English, by the way. Ooh, and how do we get to listen to it in
        Message 3 of 17 , Dec 3, 2003
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          David said a couple of things:

          1) This meter sounds a lot better in Finnish than it does in English, by
          the way. >>

          Ooh, and how do we get to listen to it in Finnish? Then again, since I for
          one can't understand Finnish, is that a silly exercise?


          At 10:05 AM 12/1/2003 , alexeik@... wrote:
          >Longfellow based his story on Ojibwe mythology (quite unrelated to
          anything Iroquois), where the character he referred to as "Hiawatha" is
          actually called Wenabozho. Longfellow liked the Iroquois name better,
          apparently, and arbitrarily substituted it for the original name. >>

          2) In that, Longfellow showed good taste.

          LOL I have to admit that I like "Hiawatha" better than "Wenabozho", but
          would one call it good taste or perhaps good judgement of his primarily
          English-speaking audience? Taste is kind of a tricky concept don't you
          think?

          So, let me see. Hiawatha the Iroquois would have been a local figure to
          me, as a NYer, but I would have to look him up to see if he existed, etc.

          Wenabozho, who goes with the story we know, was Ojibwe, a nation I've heard
          of but I'm not sure where to place them geographically.

          I am wondering lately, in my usual muddy way, whether a Yank interest in
          things Native American would be a similar thing to the English interest
          (occasionally) in things Celtic. With all the inaccuracies and
          subjectivities of both hobbies, still it's like a searching out of the
          earlier people.

          Lizzie Apgar Triano
          lizziewriter@...
          amor vincit omnia
        • David S. Bratman
          ... Despite its formidable appearance, Finnish isn t a difficult language to learn to pronounce. With a copy of the Finnish text of the Kalevala, and a
          Message 4 of 17 , Dec 3, 2003
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            At 06:23 AM 12/3/2003 , Elizabeth Apgar Triano wrote:

            >Ooh, and how do we get to listen to it in Finnish? Then again, since I for
            >one can't understand Finnish, is that a silly exercise?

            Despite its formidable appearance, Finnish isn't a difficult language to
            learn to pronounce. With a copy of the Finnish text of the Kalevala, and a
            Finnish pronunciation guide, both of which could be findable in a good
            library and probably on the Web, you can read it aloud for yourself.

            A recording of the whole Kalevala read in Finnish might require some
            tracking down and might not be worth the trouble for the merely curious,
            but if you just want an easy way to hear some of it and get some great
            music into the bargain, may I suggest acquiring a CD of Jean Sibelius's
            choral-orchestral suite "Kullervo"? I recommend the Naxos recording
            conducted by Jorma Panula. The booklet has the original text plus translation.

            Tolkien, who was passionately interested in the sheer sound of language,
            believed that it was anything but a silly exercise to listen to a language
            you do not speak. Characters in LOTR frequently hear such languages, and
            are moved by the sound of them, or find that a meaning comes through even
            without a knowledge of the words. Tolkien himself discovered his favorite
            languages through reading their (then unknown to him) words in print.


            >2) In that, Longfellow showed good taste.
            >
            >LOL I have to admit that I like "Hiawatha" better than "Wenabozho", but
            >would one call it good taste or perhaps good judgement of his primarily
            >English-speaking audience? Taste is kind of a tricky concept don't you
            >think?

            I was being jocular, but a good judgment of the audience is essential to
            good taste. To write something that might be appropriate for another
            audience but not for the one you have (I'm thinking of things like
            off-color humor here) would not be good taste.


            >So, let me see. Hiawatha the Iroquois would have been a local figure to
            >me, as a NYer, but I would have to look him up to see if he existed, etc.
            >
            >Wenabozho, who goes with the story we know, was Ojibwe, a nation I've heard
            >of but I'm not sure where to place them geographically.

            Upper Great Lakes. Usually spelled Ojibwa (which may be why you had
            trouble turning info up on the Web) and now usually known as the Chippewa.


            >I am wondering lately, in my usual muddy way, whether a Yank interest in
            >things Native American would be a similar thing to the English interest
            >(occasionally) in things Celtic. With all the inaccuracies and
            >subjectivities of both hobbies, still it's like a searching out of the
            >earlier people.

            Why not? I live in a part of the country occupied by numerous small Native
            tribes in aboriginal days. I like to keep track of whose territory I am in
            when I travel, and I find that passing from one to another usually marks a
            vegetative or landscape boundary as well.

            - David Bratman
          • alexeik@aol.com
            In a message dated 12/3/3 3:36:08 PM, David Bratman wrote:
            Message 5 of 17 , Dec 3, 2003
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              In a message dated 12/3/3 3:36:08 PM, David Bratman wrote:

              <<A recording of the whole Kalevala read in Finnish might require some
              tracking down and might not be worth the trouble for the merely curious,
              but if you just want an easy way to hear some of it and get some great
              music into the bargain, may I suggest acquiring a CD of Jean Sibelius's
              choral-orchestral suite "Kullervo"? I recommend the Naxos recording
              conducted by Jorma Panula. The booklet has the original text plus
              translation.
              >>

              Another fun recording in the same vein is that of the contemporary Finnish
              composer Einojuhani Rautavaara's oratorio _Sammon ryötsö_ (The Myth of the
              Sampo), which is a setting for vocal soloists, chorus and electronic sounds of the
              section of the _Kalevala_ that deals with the three hero-brothers' expedition
              to Pohjola (Lapland) to obtain the magical object called the Sampo. The music
              is very expressive and well-suited to its legendary subject, besides giving a
              good sense of what the verses of the _Kalevala_ sound like in Finnish. It also
              comes with the original text plus translation.
              Alexei
            • Jack
              greenmanreview.com/book/book_beowulf_criticaledition.html [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Message 6 of 17 , Dec 3, 2003
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                greenmanreview.com/book/book_beowulf_criticaledition.html

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • alexeik@aol.com
                In a message dated 12/3/3 3:36:08 PM, David Bratman wrote:
                Message 7 of 17 , Dec 3, 2003
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                  In a message dated 12/3/3 3:36:08 PM, David Bratman wrote:

                  << Ojibwe, a nation I've heard
                  >of but I'm not sure where to place them geographically.

                  Upper Great Lakes. Usually spelled Ojibwa (which may be why you had
                  trouble turning info up on the Web) and now usually known as the Chippewa.
                  >>

                  "Chippewa" is the form most commonly used in the US, while "Ojibway" is the
                  form most commonly used in Canada. Both are approximations of the native form
                  _Ojibwe_. Today it's become fashionable to use the term _Anishinaabe_
                  (literally "normal person"), which can be applied to a number of Algonkian-speaking
                  peoples of the Great Lakes area.
                  Alexei
                • alexeik@aol.com
                  In a message dated 12/3/3 2:36:07 PM, you wrote:
                  Message 8 of 17 , Dec 3, 2003
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                    In a message dated 12/3/3 2:36:07 PM, you wrote:

                    <<LOL I have to admit that I like "Hiawatha" better than "Wenabozho", but
                    would one call it good taste or perhaps good judgement of his primarily
                    English-speaking audience?>>

                    Certainly "Hiawatha" (especially pronounced the familiar English way: the
                    actual Iroquois pronunciation would be 'hee-ya-watt-ha") sounds far less bizarre
                    to an English-speaking audience than "Wenabozho". Longfellow's choice is
                    perfectly reasonable if one assumes that his audience will never have any further
                    interest in the culture that serves as the background for the story. For anyone
                    who does know something about it, however, the effect is as jarring as, say,
                    arbitrarily giving one of the characters in a Chinese story a Japanese name.
                    Alexei
                  • alexeik@aol.com
                    In a message dated 12/3/3 2:36:07 PM, Lizzie wrote:
                    Message 9 of 17 , Dec 3, 2003
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                      In a message dated 12/3/3 2:36:07 PM, Lizzie wrote:

                      <<I am wondering lately, in my usual muddy way, whether a Yank interest in
                      things Native American would be a similar thing to the English interest
                      (occasionally) in things Celtic. With all the inaccuracies and
                      subjectivities of both hobbies, still it's like a searching out of the
                      earlier people.>>

                      I've been pointing this out for a long time. The relationship is similar in
                      that both involve the cultures of conquered peoples, with most of the terms
                      defined by the conquerors -- who choose precisely which aspects of the conquered
                      cultures are of interest to them, what their significance is, and how they are
                      to be given expression in the dominant culture's art and literature.
                      Alexei
                    • Stolzi@aol.com
                      In a message dated 12/2/2003 10:40:12 PM Central Standard Time, ... In that, Longfellow showed good taste. Well, to YOUR linguistic taste, which is formed by
                      Message 10 of 17 , Dec 3, 2003
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                        In a message dated 12/2/2003 10:40:12 PM Central Standard Time,
                        dbratman@... writes:
                        >"Hiawatha" is actually called Wenabozho. Longfellow liked the Iroquois name
                        >better, apparently, and arbitrarily substituted it for the original name.

                        In that, Longfellow showed good taste.
                        Well, to YOUR linguistic taste, which is formed by neither of the languages
                        under discussion, or, one might grant, for a poem in English. Perhaps
                        "Wenabozho" sounds exquisite in the ears of an Ojibwa, and "Hiawatha" awkward.



                        Diamond Proudbrook


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Stolzi@aol.com
                        In a message dated 12/3/2003 1:10:05 PM Central Standard Time, ... Algonkian-speaking ... How ethnocentric of them Diamond Proudbrook [Non-text portions of
                        Message 11 of 17 , Dec 3, 2003
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                          In a message dated 12/3/2003 1:10:05 PM Central Standard Time,
                          alexeik@... writes:


                          >Today it's become fashionable to use the term _Anishinaabe_
                          >(literally "normal person"), which can be applied to a number of
                          Algonkian-speaking
                          >peoples of the Great Lakes area.


                          How ethnocentric of them



                          Diamond Proudbrook


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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